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Which death scene do you prefer Vesper's death in Casino Royale or Tracy's death in On Her Majesty's Secret Service? I prefer Vesper's death because I actually felt a little bit sad when I saw her die and I didn't feel anything when I saw Tracy die.
Last edited by JimmyBond0129 (26th Apr 2009 20:37)
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I don't know if I would use the word 'prefer' but Tracey's death, and the way it happened, affected me more. I found Vesper's death to be quite pointless and I didn't care for her as a character. As a result, I wasn't affected by her death. On the other hand, I loved Tracey and her death, particularly in the manner in which it happened (murdered straight after she and Bond married), truly devastated me. It still does; I can't even bring myself to utter the line that Bond says. :'(
I thought vespers was really sad :'(
Prefer is a strange way to put it...The death of Vesper was well done and quite emotional, but that whole final scene of OHMSS is so tragic. The flowers, the bullet hole in the windscreen...That never fails to bring my wife to tears. Not bad for a film to still have that emotional impact nearly 40 years later. My wife and I are in our late 20s so can anybody tell me if Tracey's death was a huge moment, or was everybody just angry that it wasn't Connery in the role?
There's a much bigger buildup towards Vesper's death, making it more dramatic and effective in my opinion.
Tracy's death happens so sudden and unexpectedly it feels like a slap in the face and you are left wondering what just happened.
On the other hand we see Bond moving on and 'getting the bad guy' in CR straight away (never mind that he gets away in QOS) giving the audience a sense of closure.
With Tracy the audience is left without this satisfaction.
So I would actually 'prefer' neither, but I remain more affected by Vesper's death on the personal note that she reminds me so much of my wife, rather than anything else.
I think it's okay to talk about this in terms of a preference because it's a question as to which piece is felt to be the more entertaining.
I preferred the death of Tracy because its sudden unexpectedness (for those who hadn't read the novel) was devastating.... and there'd been no death with an impact like this in a James Bond film before. In a sense we were complicit in it because we didn't want our hero to settle down and get married - he had to be brought back, somehow, to square one. John Barry's brash end title arrangement of The James Bond Theme seems to add a touch of callousness coming so soon, as it does, after the death.
Vesper's death is fully embedded in CR and well handled, but there is a degree of post-'Titanic' sentimentality about it; I prefer the rawness of the impact of Tracy's death in OHMSS.
Has anybody else noticed how, after the car chase in the pre-credits sequence of QoS, the way in which the bullet hole in Bond's car window has cracked the glass seems to allude to the bullet hole in the car window at the end of OHMSS?
Last edited by Shady Tree (4th May 2009 18:47)
In a sense we were complicit in it because we didn't want our hero to settle down and get married - he had to be brought back, somehow, to square one.
I think it's more than that. I've always regarded On Her Majesty's Secret Service to be a wonderful title as Tacey was killed due to Bond's being on Her Majesty's Secret Service. Bond was indirectly responsible for Tracey's death; she was killed because she fell in love with him and married him.
From an audience point of view, I think that, like Bond, we try to decieve ourselves that he can be settle down and be happy, even though we (and him) know that he can't. When Tracey gets murdered, it's a huge shock, yet at the same time, it was inevitable; partly caused by Bond himself, and by the audience who tried to forget that Bond could never settle down, not while he was still an active agent at least.
Last edited by Dan Same (3rd May 2009 16:45)
I am not exactly comfortable with the nature of this topic, but from an analytical media perspective...
Daniel Crag's Bond has all the refined elements of his predacessors, but the one aspect that his potrayal of Bond cranked up in CR is the characters humanity. Not just in making mistakes, but in his feelings. - The loss of Vesper affects him deeply, and strengthens the fact this Bond is not the full shilling through his ruthlessness. Through him we get to see that Vesper is indeed his equal on may levels, and the scenes of them together post torture are sweet and bitter - cause we know where its going to go. Although her sacrafice to save him is in part engineered though her betraying him, he genuinely feels pain at her loss. - Its clear how his attitude to women will develop. He won't let them get close, because he can't. Ever.
Having said all that, - the last time this approach was taken at face value, was in OHMSS. the film and its leading man have had detractors over the years. - I wasn't one of them. As Bond George Lazenby was convincing as a different Bond, and the scenes between him and Diana Rigg's Tracy sparkle. - Much as Craig and Eva Green's do almost 30 years later in CR. Lazenby gives Bond a vulnerability and sense or mourning that Connery never did, (his Bond was never written that way) and it makes his solo turn powerful, and memorable.
Honourable mention - In FYEO, at the start of the film, Bond visits his wife's grave. Sir Roger Moore does a lovely job of making this scene somber and sad, before the usual high octane chaos kicks in. Showing a part of 007 still feels the loss of Tracy deep inside.
In the real world, I personally have found that when you loose someone close to you, it never feels the same way twice. Relatives, Close Friends, its always an emotional roller coaster, and you don't know how you will react.
On the other hand we see Bond moving on and 'getting the bad guy' in CR straight away (never mind that he gets away in QOS) giving the audience a sense of closure.
I guess the audience gets a sense of closure but I don't think Bond gets any closure until the end of Quantum of Solace when he confronts Vesper's ex-boyfriend.
I think Roger Moore gets a bit upset in The Spy Who Loved Me when Agent xxx mentions tracey in that film he just cuts her dead and she says your sensitive Mr Bond 
Vesper's Death, without question.
She died for Bond. She gave up her life, because she couldn't face what she had done to him - so she sacrificed herself.
And when you sacrifice yourself, for the one you love - that, IMO is true love.
That is probably why CR will remain my favourite Bond, as it has this powerful element of a love story running through it. The emotion and utter despair that we fleetingly see in Bond, once he knows she has died, gives us a glimpse of the 'man' behind the façade.
One of the most powerful scenes in a Bond film - well for me anyway.
Last edited by Lexi (7th Jun 2009 15:07)
Tracy's death. With Vesper's death, there was a large sway of emotions. He was mad at her, he wanted her dead, but then he tries to save her, and then he's mad that she died. A lot of things went on.
With Tracy's death, it was clear that this was a happy for Bond, and when she got shot, I believed the emotion behind it, and he was more straight forward with it. He was sad, and that was all.
That's not saying the way Vesper died was handled bad because it wasn't, I'm just saying that I like Tracy's death scene better....
Vesper's death, just by the sheer power Craig's performance alone, after he tries CPR to no avail, he sits on the ledge, looks around to see if anyones looking (or if hes safe maybe) his face is ridden with emotion, anger, betrayal, confusion, its all in the details, like his lip quiver's at one moment like hes about to cry but shoves it back to his professional mask, and then he holds Vesper's lifeless body, James Bond is born.
James Bond is born.
Nicely said!
Forgive me if I'm wrong but didn't Vesper commit suicide?
That's a tad selfish. She couldn't face living with Bond and having him know she was a traitor. Bond dives to rescue her, sure, but once the realisation sets in even he says "The bitch is dead." At the end of CR (regardless of what is said of QOS) he's already starting to effect closure on the relationship itself and is more interested in who was behind Le Chiffre etc.
I think the writers saw Vesper and Bond's final scenes as a problem (in the novel it isn't because Vesper's suicide doesn't come after a noisy gun battle) so they constructed a little sequence during which she kisses his hand, the one of which she had said "There is more of a man in this little finger..."
Gratingly obvious.
Tracy on the other hand, while involved in Bond's escape from Piz Gloria and the subsequent attack on it, isn't so attatched to the plot. This allows a deeper emotional involvement to take shape, she doesn't have the baggage of the "office relationship" hanging over her and for much of the time isn't even on screen.
Bond rescues Tracy from her suicide; he is intrigued and very much attracted. She is too, which is why she is so touchy at Draco's birthday party and cries when Bond stops her leaving. Their short weeks of romance happen outside the confines of the story, so when Bond actually considers surrendering his double-0 number it is wholy believable; he's found the woman of his dreams.
The acting between Lazenby and Rigg is exceptionally good. There is something very natural and carefree about the OHMSS wedding scenes, which I don't detect in all those silly forced scenes at the spa and in Venice in CR.
Tracy's death effects me more because I have genuine empathy with the lovers. Their relationship isn't bundled up by the writers in a host of psycho-babble and bold statements of love; it's a very simple warm attatchment, utilising the actors faces, body language and some heartrendering music. Who says there is no room for romance in a James Bond film?
I don't prefer either. I find Vesper's death sad, but she commited suicide. She also double-crossed Bond, so it's a lot easier to get over. Her death is a big part in the making of Bond, a huge significance in this re-boot.
Tracey's death was more tragic. It was sudden and completely unexpected. You could argue that this would have been a critical point in the making of Bond, had Connery not plodded through DAF. Moore played the scene well in the churchyard in FYEO.
There's a much bigger buildup towards Vesper's death, making it more dramatic and effective in my opinion.
Tracy's death happens so sudden and unexpectedly it feels like a slap in the face and you are left wondering what just happened.
On the other hand we see Bond moving on and 'getting the bad guy' in CR straight away (never mind that he gets away in QOS) giving the audience a sense of closure.
With Tracy the audience is left without this satisfaction.
So I would actually 'prefer' neither, but I remain more affected by Vesper's death on the personal note that she reminds me so much of my wife, rather than anything else.
But didn't Bond "get the bad guy" in the teaser of Diamonds Are Forever when he hunted down Blofeld and eliminated him (or at least thought he had)?
I always figured that Bond's manhunt for Blofeld in the teaser of DAF (in addition to it being his Operation: Bedlam assignment) was motivated by his rage over Tracy's murder.
But didn't Bond "get the bad guy" in the teaser of Diamonds Are Forever when he hunted down Blofeld and eliminated him (or at least thought he had)?
I always figured that Bond's manhunt for Blofeld in the teaser of DAF (in addition to it being his Operation: Bedlam assignment) was motivated by his rage over Tracy's murder.
Maybe, but many of us feel it was given rather short shrift, given the circumstances. However lamented QoS has been, at least it provides a nice stage of adjustment through which Bond moves. DAF might have benefitted from such a thing, but sadly the era would not have it 
But didn't Bond "get the bad guy" in the teaser of Diamonds Are Forever when he hunted down Blofeld and eliminated him (or at least thought he had)?
I always figured that Bond's manhunt for Blofeld in the teaser of DAF (in addition to it being his Operation: Bedlam assignment) was motivated by his rage over Tracy's murder.
Well, as SC was obviously sleepwalking thru DAF, the motivation by rage over Tracy's death may have been in the script, but not in his acting 
JimmyBond0129 wrote:Bump
People will respond to your post if and when they decide to. Bumping it up in this manner is simply annoying.
I don't know if I would use the word 'prefer' but Tracey's death, and the way it happened, affected me more. I found Vesper's death to be quite pointless and I didn't care for her as a character. As a result, I wasn't affected by her death. On the other hand, I loved Tracey and her death, particularly in the manner in which it happened (murdered straight after she and Bond married), truly devastated me. It still does; I can't even bring myself to utter the line that Bond says. :'(
I know what you mean. I feel a genuine sadness when Tracy dies, that I just don't when Vesper does. This may be because I never really liked Eva Green as Vesper, where for me at least Diana Rigg was just perfect. I also never quite 'bought' the Bond Vesper relationship, which from my point of view was one of the few weaknesses in CR. Both characters save Bond life in one way or another, but one really moves me, and the other does not. I guess that this may well be a minority view, and that others will feel equally moved by Vespers death. Another salient point which is captured in another thread about Lazenby is just how well he plays the scene. Spot on in my view, and one of the best acted scenes in the whole series.
Dan Same wrote:JimmyBond0129 wrote:Bump
People will respond to your post if and when they decide to. Bumping it up in this manner is simply annoying.I don't know if I would use the word 'prefer' but Tracey's death, and the way it happened, affected me more. I found Vesper's death to be quite pointless
and I didn't care for her as a character. As a result, I wasn't affected by her death. On the
other hand, I loved Tracey and her death, particularly in the manner in which it happened (murdered
straight after she and Bond married), truly devastated me. It still does; I can't even bring myself to
utter the line that Bond says. :'(I know what you mean. I feel a genuine sadness when Tracy dies,
that I just don't when Vesper does. This may be because I never really liked Eva Green as Vesper, where for
me at least Diana Rigg was just perfect. I also never quite 'bought' the Bond Vesper relationship, which from
my point of view was one of the few weaknesses in CR. Both characters save Bond life in one way or another,
but one really moves me, and the other does not.
Absolutely. I truly agree. Although I'm not completely happy with Diana Rigg's Tracey, I very much loved her and I really felt Bond's sorrow at losing her. When Vesper died, my only complaint was that it didn't happen sooner.
I guess that this may well be a minority view, and that others will feel equally moved by Vespers death.
A minority view, probably, however don't worry, there are more people struggling to convince the world of this than you realise. 
Sadly, however, one of our greatest warriors, JFF seems to have retired. 
Another salient point which is captured in another thread about Lazenby is just how well he
plays the scene. Spot on in my view, and one of the best acted scenes in the whole series.
He was incredible in that scene. Not only is it one of my favourite Bond scenes, but it's also one of my favourite film scenes in general. 
Vesper was so much more memorable in the novel than film. I actually cared for the pitiful girl in the book. The movie made me want to kill her.
For me there is no comparison. OHMSS will always stand on its own as a great work and is the most "real" 007 experience.
Vesper was so much more memorable in the novel than film. I actually cared for the pitiful girl in the book. The movie made me want to kill her.
For me there is no comparison. OHMSS will always stand on its own as a great work and is the most "real" 007 experience.
Couldn't agree more. 
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