Similar but smaller, I say a neck brace could hold quite a charge. I think they
should be put into those ASBO ankle tags. Break your conditions, lose a foot !
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
This is the world's oldest revolver. Because it was owned by an officer named Reichwein it's called the Reichwein revolver. It's from 1597 - and it is at a museum here in Norway
In your opinion what would be the effective range of a .38 super round fired from a Colt .38 super semi auto 1911 pistol?
Realistically how far would the round travel beyond that range (when it was spent)?
What is the effective range of a 12 bore shotgun (used against a man)?
Beyond this range could the pellets be defeated by heavy clothing?
Effective range is extremely difficult to come up with because of many factors. Effective range on a paper target would be anywhere up to 100m. 50m for most people. 250m with good windage and elevation sights and little wind. The .38 super is not as powerful as modern 9mm loads and I used to drop 9mm onto the target at 300m with a Browning captain model. However, the .38 super is an extremely accurate round with little rise leaving the muzzle. As for effective range on a person - who knows? That's all to do with the marksman, the target and luck. Technically, it would easily over penetrate at 100m. And certainly wouldn't bounce off at 500m if it was a stray round. (A woman was hit in the head in Ulster by an RUC officer practicing in the woods a mile away with a 9mm and it stuck in her skull, but didn't go through if that helps?)
How far would it travel? As a guide most handgun rounds with an average barrel length of 4" fired at 45 degrees will drop a mile away. I shoot mainly .22 now and the warning label warns of a mile range.
I shoot .12 bore and it's a difficult one to debate. If you fire a rifle and elevate, the bullet drops down onto your target. This is what snipers become so good at with sight adjustment and calculations. If they fired a 7.62mm from a bench it would drop an inch every 200m, yet good snipers get 1000m hits. Elevate a shotgun and you get no further range. The shot pattern merely widens. 32g 6 shot high pheasant loads out of a 2 3/4" cartridge typically have a maximum range of 60m when fired in the air at a gamebird. Chokage is usually 1/4 and 3/4. But the bird is flying into a web of shot and it only takes one or two pellets to drop the bird. Chokage is actually the key factor. Full choke is the tightest at the muzzle, with open being the widest. 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 rest between. There are also 3" and now 3 1/2" magnum shells - usually found in combat style shotguns. They give higher muzzle energy meaning more stopping power, but don't have more range. Still with me? Good. Now, the less powerful .20 bore with a heavy load and tighter chokage (tighter than full choke .12 bore) has less recoil and every bit as much range. But has less pellets to make the shot count. I can't talk for a man, but I've hit a wooden door at 50m and would not have wanted to be behind it. The top half had shot in almost every couple of inches. This was with no elevation, as described earlier.
Personally, I don't think heavy clothing would matter much.
The thing is, you want to know how this all stacks up against a man and it really is too much down to luck. People have been shot multiple times by high calibre weapons in war and walked out of hospital in days. Others have been hit by a stray .22 bullet a mile away and dropped dead. Years ago my father accidentally shot our gun dog at point blank range with a .12 bore and she lived and fully recovered, but I've seen wild boar (extremely thick skinned) killed outright at 30m.
One point though - if you offered me a million pound to fire a shotgun at me at 100m I wouldn't take your bet. )
Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:
The .38 super is not as powerful as modern 9mm loads...
Not quite true; they both operate on about the same chamber pressures, which results in similar velocities with corresponding bullet weights. But, .38 "supa" has certainly the potential to be significantly more powerful than 9mmpb. example of this might be the Cor-Bon .38 sup dpx which throws out a 125 grain slug at whopping 1350 fps (5 inch barrel)! That's very much in the .357 mag territory, which the 9mmpb is not.
Even if +p is not used, they are neck to neck and not as stated "9mm more powerful".
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
I've had gamebird shot bounce off my barbour before, not sure at what distance as I don't know who fired... It was while beating for partridge. I've also seen a man get a single piece of shot from a shotgun lodged just under his eye!! Again I'm not sure of range.
It was either that.....or the priesthood
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,990Quartermasters
I'm getting close to a point in my Oscar Jade follow-up, "Storm Maker," in which I will have to choose a rifle and telescopic sight that would be period-correct to 1942.
7289, a long-standing member here, advised me some time ago that my best choice would be the Winchester Model 54, chambered in .270. For the telescopic sight, he advised a 2.5x Lyman "Alaskan" scope, 7/8" tube, post reticle, with a Griffen & Howe side mount...or as an alternative, using a generically-identified German Zeiss scope, with the same mount. I'm still debating about how many specifics to provide, but like Fleming I enjoy using brand names to ground the piece in as much reality as possible.
But I will entertain all suggestions!
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
The .38 super is not as powerful as modern 9mm loads...
Not quite true; they both operate on about the same chamber pressures, which results in similar velocities with corresponding bullet weights. But, .38 "supa" has certainly the potential to be significantly more powerful than 9mmpb. example of this might be the Cor-Bon .38 sup dpx which throws out a 125 grain slug at whopping 1350 fps (5 inch barrel)! That's very much in the .357 mag territory, which the 9mmpb is not.
Even if +p is not used, they are neck to neck and not as stated "9mm more powerful".
Generally, but RBCD for example have a TFSP 9mm round with 539 ft/lb and 2010 ft per sec which is almost 30% more than any .38 super. It is only a 60 grain compared with typically a 125 grain.
Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:
I'm getting close to a point in my Oscar Jade follow-up, "Storm Maker," in which I will have to choose a rifle and telescopic sight that would be period-correct to 1942.
7289, a long-standing member here, advised me some time ago that my best choice would be the Winchester Model 54, chambered in .270. For the telescopic sight, he advised a 2.5x Lyman "Alaskan" scope, 7/8" tube, post reticle, with a Griffen & Howe side mount...or as an alternative, using a generically-identified German Zeiss scope, with the same mount. I'm still debating about how many specifics to provide, but like Fleming I enjoy using brand names to ground the piece in as much reality as possible.
But I will entertain all suggestions!
Looking forward to Storm Maker. Give Oscar a scene with a BAR 30-06. Just like they used on Bonnie and Clyde!
Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:
I'm getting close to a point in my Oscar Jade follow-up, "Storm Maker," in which I will have to choose a rifle and telescopic sight that would be period-correct to 1942.
7289, a long-standing member here, advised me some time ago that my best choice would be the Winchester Model 54, chambered in .270. For the telescopic sight, he advised a 2.5x Lyman "Alaskan" scope, 7/8" tube, post reticle, with a Griffen & Howe side mount...or as an alternative, using a generically-identified German Zeiss scope, with the same mount. I'm still debating about how many specifics to provide, but like Fleming I enjoy using brand names to ground the piece in as much reality as possible.
But I will entertain all suggestions!
Looking forward to Storm Maker. Give Oscar a scene with a BAR 30-06. Just like they used on Bonnie and Clyde!
Did that in Act 3 of B&A; don't wanna go there again too soon...fun as it was Although, to be accurate, it was Jade's assistant, Claude, who wielded the BAR to great effect.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Generally, but RBCD for example have a TFSP 9mm round with 539 ft/lb and 2010 ft per sec which is almost 30% more than any .38 super. It is only a 60 grain compared with typically a 125 grain.
And if you drive a 125 grain bullet 1350 fps, it'll be 502ft/lbs and 115 grains 1450, it'll be 537 ft/lbs. (in .38 super that is) So why go exotic? You'll loose range and accuracy with such high velocities and light and short bullets from a short barrel. (And for exotic RUAG has a 124 grains at 1411 fps 546ft/lbs).
Anyways I'm am not arguing that the "Supes" is a better cartridge, I am a 9mmpb guy through and through. I'll take a fast followup shot and higher capacity in a smaller frame over (possible) higher power "any day of the week and twice on sundays". What I am saying is that with modern ammo, there is not much difference in an average load.
.38 super is not a bad cartridge, it's just that .357 mag pretty much made it obsolete.
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
In it's day though, am I correct in saying the .38 super was one of the 'hottest' rounds?
Well it depends; 9mm was loaded pretty hot from the get-go as a sub-gun load. 38 supa was intended as a autopistol equivalent of the 38/44 which was purdy hot in its day, before mag loads. Autopistol rounds were a bit softer shooting those days, because fast cycling of the slide easily produced stoppages, but yes for autopistols 9mm, .38 super and .45 acp ruled in those days.
I'd say go with it if it's on the left bank of the Atlantic, 9mm was more of thing in the continental Europe before WW2.
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,990Quartermasters
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Not so much a question on guns but about weapons...
Learned today that the first Submarine was used in the American Revolution
In 1775 " The Turtle", I thought that was amazing! Then on swords used by
The Army in WW1, although soon seen as old fashioned and out of date for
Modern warfare. It turns out the first German killed , was killed by a sword.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Not so much a question on guns but about weapons...
Learned today that the first Submarine was used in the American Revolution
In 1775 " The Turtle", I thought that was amazing! Then on swords used by
The Army in WW1, although soon seen as old fashioned and out of date for
Modern warfare. It turns out the first German killed , was killed by a sword.
A chap called Jack Churchill killed a German in WW2 with a longbow. He used a Scottish highland sword too.
Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:
I'd guess a bow and arrow could still be quite effective, even today ?
I remember reading that the English longbow had an astonishing
Range.
I couldn't believe that the German's had rudimentary air to air guided missiles, controlled
By a cable system, and the American's had an early idea for a cruise missile. A radio controlled
Plane filled with explosives, with a TV camera in the front, flown by a pilot in a second plane.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I have read that the American "Air sea rescue" used pigeon guided helicopters
With the pigeon in a perspex dome under it, pecking on some directional
Indicators, as they have such fantastic eye sight for seeing the smallest objects
In the sea ! ( Don't know if this got passed an experimental stage)
I'm really impressed with the ingenious ideas some science boffins had, a long
Time ago but the technology of the day just wasn't ready for them.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
From memory (sorry but I'm a bit of a military history geek!) the last recorded fatality of the English longbow in combat was during the French campaign of 1940 when a British officer killed a German with one.
I think - though stand to be corrected - either a longbow or broadsword was carried by a British officer on D Day.
It was the same Magnificent Bastard who did both, and check out his name!!! : John Malcolm Thorpe Fleming "Jack" Churchill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill although "Mad Jack" did not take part in the D-Day landings as he was in Berlin at the time. ) ) )
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
Not really a question, but a suggestion. While the HK PPS looked too angular and didn't remind me of the old PPK, I think the PPS M2 looks more elegant. If Bond switches to a new gun (big 'if'),do you think this is a good contender?
Comments
should be put into those ASBO ankle tags. Break your conditions, lose a foot !
Here's a Mythbusters take on the question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAW_KPac-H8
Enjoy!
-Mr Arlington Beech
I think Blackleiter was there when it was made.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Effective range is extremely difficult to come up with because of many factors. Effective range on a paper target would be anywhere up to 100m. 50m for most people. 250m with good windage and elevation sights and little wind. The .38 super is not as powerful as modern 9mm loads and I used to drop 9mm onto the target at 300m with a Browning captain model. However, the .38 super is an extremely accurate round with little rise leaving the muzzle. As for effective range on a person - who knows? That's all to do with the marksman, the target and luck. Technically, it would easily over penetrate at 100m. And certainly wouldn't bounce off at 500m if it was a stray round. (A woman was hit in the head in Ulster by an RUC officer practicing in the woods a mile away with a 9mm and it stuck in her skull, but didn't go through if that helps?)
How far would it travel? As a guide most handgun rounds with an average barrel length of 4" fired at 45 degrees will drop a mile away. I shoot mainly .22 now and the warning label warns of a mile range.
I shoot .12 bore and it's a difficult one to debate. If you fire a rifle and elevate, the bullet drops down onto your target. This is what snipers become so good at with sight adjustment and calculations. If they fired a 7.62mm from a bench it would drop an inch every 200m, yet good snipers get 1000m hits. Elevate a shotgun and you get no further range. The shot pattern merely widens. 32g 6 shot high pheasant loads out of a 2 3/4" cartridge typically have a maximum range of 60m when fired in the air at a gamebird. Chokage is usually 1/4 and 3/4. But the bird is flying into a web of shot and it only takes one or two pellets to drop the bird. Chokage is actually the key factor. Full choke is the tightest at the muzzle, with open being the widest. 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 rest between. There are also 3" and now 3 1/2" magnum shells - usually found in combat style shotguns. They give higher muzzle energy meaning more stopping power, but don't have more range. Still with me? Good. Now, the less powerful .20 bore with a heavy load and tighter chokage (tighter than full choke .12 bore) has less recoil and every bit as much range. But has less pellets to make the shot count. I can't talk for a man, but I've hit a wooden door at 50m and would not have wanted to be behind it. The top half had shot in almost every couple of inches. This was with no elevation, as described earlier.
Personally, I don't think heavy clothing would matter much.
The thing is, you want to know how this all stacks up against a man and it really is too much down to luck. People have been shot multiple times by high calibre weapons in war and walked out of hospital in days. Others have been hit by a stray .22 bullet a mile away and dropped dead. Years ago my father accidentally shot our gun dog at point blank range with a .12 bore and she lived and fully recovered, but I've seen wild boar (extremely thick skinned) killed outright at 30m.
One point though - if you offered me a million pound to fire a shotgun at me at 100m I wouldn't take your bet.
http://apbateman.com
Not quite true; they both operate on about the same chamber pressures, which results in similar velocities with corresponding bullet weights. But, .38 "supa" has certainly the potential to be significantly more powerful than 9mmpb. example of this might be the Cor-Bon .38 sup dpx which throws out a 125 grain slug at whopping 1350 fps (5 inch barrel)! That's very much in the .357 mag territory, which the 9mmpb is not.
Even if +p is not used, they are neck to neck and not as stated "9mm more powerful".
-Mr Arlington Beech
7289, a long-standing member here, advised me some time ago that my best choice would be the Winchester Model 54, chambered in .270. For the telescopic sight, he advised a 2.5x Lyman "Alaskan" scope, 7/8" tube, post reticle, with a Griffen & Howe side mount...or as an alternative, using a generically-identified German Zeiss scope, with the same mount. I'm still debating about how many specifics to provide, but like Fleming I enjoy using brand names to ground the piece in as much reality as possible.
But I will entertain all suggestions!
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Generally, but RBCD for example have a TFSP 9mm round with 539 ft/lb and 2010 ft per sec which is almost 30% more than any .38 super. It is only a 60 grain compared with typically a 125 grain.
http://apbateman.com
Looking forward to Storm Maker. Give Oscar a scene with a BAR 30-06. Just like they used on Bonnie and Clyde!
http://apbateman.com
Did that in Act 3 of B&A; don't wanna go there again too soon...fun as it was
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Thanks for the "shout out"!
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
And if you drive a 125 grain bullet 1350 fps, it'll be 502ft/lbs and 115 grains 1450, it'll be 537 ft/lbs. (in .38 super that is) So why go exotic? You'll loose range and accuracy with such high velocities and light and short bullets from a short barrel. (And for exotic RUAG has a 124 grains at 1411 fps 546ft/lbs).
Anyways I'm am not arguing that the "Supes" is a better cartridge, I am a 9mmpb guy through and through. I'll take a fast followup shot and higher capacity in a smaller frame over (possible) higher power "any day of the week and twice on sundays". What I am saying is that with modern ammo, there is not much difference in an average load.
.38 super is not a bad cartridge, it's just that .357 mag pretty much made it obsolete.
-Mr Arlington Beech
Well it depends; 9mm was loaded pretty hot from the get-go as a sub-gun load. 38 supa was intended as a autopistol equivalent of the 38/44 which was purdy hot in its day, before mag loads. Autopistol rounds were a bit softer shooting those days, because fast cycling of the slide easily produced stoppages, but yes for autopistols 9mm, .38 super and .45 acp ruled in those days.
I'd say go with it if it's on the left bank of the Atlantic, 9mm was more of thing in the continental Europe before WW2.
-Mr Arlington Beech
{[]
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Learned today that the first Submarine was used in the American Revolution
In 1775 " The Turtle", I thought that was amazing! Then on swords used by
The Army in WW1, although soon seen as old fashioned and out of date for
Modern warfare. It turns out the first German killed , was killed by a sword.
A chap called Jack Churchill killed a German in WW2 with a longbow. He used a Scottish highland sword too.
http://apbateman.com
I remember reading that the English longbow had an astonishing
Range.
I couldn't believe that the German's had rudimentary air to air guided missiles, controlled
By a cable system, and the American's had an early idea for a cruise missile. A radio controlled
Plane filled with explosives, with a TV camera in the front, flown by a pilot in a second plane.
With the pigeon in a perspex dome under it, pecking on some directional
Indicators, as they have such fantastic eye sight for seeing the smallest objects
In the sea ! ( Don't know if this got passed an experimental stage)
I'm really impressed with the ingenious ideas some science boffins had, a long
Time ago but the technology of the day just wasn't ready for them.
It was the same Magnificent Bastard who did both, and check out his name!!! : John Malcolm Thorpe Fleming "Jack" Churchill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill although "Mad Jack" did not take part in the D-Day landings as he was in Berlin at the time.
-Mr Arlington Beech