Movie tough and real life tough are two different things. So many actors of Niven's generation served during WWII....many before they were actors or at least known actors. Short, chubby character actor Charles Durning was a decorated hero, Jimmy Stewart flew combat missions and ended up a General, James Arness stormed the beaches of Normany for real. Eddie Albert won critical acclaim for playing a cowardly officer on film was in real life was a decorated hero. The list of British actors I am sure is long and distiguished. Alec Guiness (landing craft pilot), Donald Pleasence (fighter pilot), Michael Cain (Korea) and the list goes on and on.
How tough you really are and how you appear on screen are different things. Case in point: guns of Navarone.
Look at this picture of the cast:
I always thought Miller (David Niven) and Franklin (Antony Quayle) were the least tough of the sabouteurs. But in real life Niven was a commando officer during WWII and Quayle was in the SOE. Niven also led a unit of he GHQ Liaison Regiment (often known as "Phantom"), a special reconnaissance unit that operated behind enemy lines.
I never knew Quayle was in SOE! I shall endeavour to learn more about his service. Just one small point though, to the best of my knowledge Niven was not a Royal Marine but an army commando. It is possible - though I'm only guessing - that he could have come into contact with Ian Fleming at some stage.
BTW Stanley Baker was a real life bad boy. He could handle himself & associated with the leading gangsters of the time. Indeed I believe he sheltered a notorious escaped convict at one point (though this needs clarification).
i have never ever considered gangsters and criminals as tough guys or hard men but more as bullies and cowards as never having the guts to pursue an honest living, my late mother in law was a cousin of Stanley Baker, although he starred in two of my favorite films Zulu and Guns of Navarone I was never a big fan of his.
Movie tough and real life tough are two different things. So many actors of Niven's generation served during WWII....many before they were actors or at least known actors. Short, chubby character actor Charles Durning was a decorated hero, Jimmy Stewart flew combat missions and ended up a General, James Arness stormed the beaches of Normany for real. Eddie Albert won critical acclaim for playing a cowardly officer on film was in real life was a decorated hero. The list of British actors I am sure is long and distiguished. Alec Guiness (landing craft pilot), Donald Pleasence (fighter pilot), Michael Cain (Korea) and the list goes on and on.
This is why I don't believe Bond should be as brutal and stone-faced as Daniel Craig's portrayal. Bond can still be someone with personality and only bring out the toughness when necessary.
Movie tough and real life tough are two different things. So many actors of Niven's generation served during WWII....many before they were actors or at least known actors. Short, chubby character actor Charles Durning was a decorated hero, Jimmy Stewart flew combat missions and ended up a General, James Arness stormed the beaches of Normany for real. Eddie Albert won critical acclaim for playing a cowardly officer on film was in real life was a decorated hero. The list of British actors I am sure is long and distiguished. Alec Guiness (landing craft pilot), Donald Pleasence (fighter pilot), Michael Cain (Korea) and the list goes on and on.
This is why I don't believe Bond should be as brutal and stone-faced as Daniel Craig's portrayal. Bond can still be someone with personality and only bring out the toughness when necessary.
Yes indeed. I'd still like to see Bond succeed by his wits more. Daniel is superb in action, but can seem a little one note. He may be too badass for my tastes. Bond needs that balance that Connery, Dalton, and surprisingly Brosnan brought. I think Hiddleston demonstrates it well in Night Manager BTW.
Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
Movie tough and real life tough are two different things. So many actors of Niven's generation served during WWII....many before they were actors or at least known actors. Short, chubby character actor Charles Durning was a decorated hero, Jimmy Stewart flew combat missions and ended up a General, James Arness stormed the beaches of Normany for real. Eddie Albert won critical acclaim for playing a cowardly officer on film was in real life was a decorated hero. The list of British actors I am sure is long and distiguished. Alec Guiness (landing craft pilot), Donald Pleasence (fighter pilot), Michael Cain (Korea) and the list goes on and on.
the producers of The Longest Day wanted Richard Todd to play himself instead of Major John Howard and Dirk Bogarde was a paratrooper, like Niven another example of iron fist in a silk glove, IMO that's how Bond should be after all he is supposed to be upperclass and eton educated.
It's funny how in the UK if you speak and carry yourself in an educated, distinguished or classy manner you wont be deemed as tough or dangerous, some of the most dangerous men I've ever met are also some of the most unassuming. I used to work with a man who served in the paratroopers, the sas and was Seconded to the American rangers, was shot in borneo captured eventually after his wound infected and tortured by having his eye slowly sliced. He was eventually liberated by his squad...... Nicest most polite man I ever met.
My grandfather was a PT instructor and forces boxing champ, he was also a lovely man, though was fond of good fight now and then.
Our view of hardness and tough men has changed a lot, though generally speaking society is getting softer.
Indeed he was Stag along with David Niven and that is why I cannot buy into DC being Flemings Bond!!!! Someone is bound to reply to this about IF hating SC at first and then changing his mind, in fact this was more than likely due to money, with the films IF income went through the roof, IF was hardly going to say publicly that SC was not how his Bond should be, he wanted the films to be as successful as possible. Btw Stag you were a very lucky man to have a mother like that, mine was the other end of the spectrum a lying, cheating, alcoholic bitch (can't choose your relatives) -{
How tough you really are and how you appear on screen are different things. Case in point: guns of Navarone.
Look at this picture of the cast:
I always thought Miller (David Niven) and Franklin (Antony Quayle) were the least tough of the sabouteurs. But in real life Niven was a commando officer during WWII and Quayle was in the SOE. Niven also led a unit of he GHQ Liaison Regiment (often known as "Phantom"), a special reconnaissance unit that operated behind enemy lines.
I never knew Quayle was in SOE! I shall endeavour to learn more about his service. Just one small point though, to the best of my knowledge Niven was not a Royal Marine but an army commando. It is possible - though I'm only guessing - that he could have come into contact with Ian Fleming at some stage.
BTW Stanley Baker was a real life bad boy. He could handle himself & associated with the leading gangsters of the time. Indeed I believe he sheltered a notorious escaped convict at one point (though this needs clarification).
I have found more on Antony Quayle. He started out in the artillery, but then he became the second Intelligence Officer for the Northumberland Auxiliary Units. The Auxiliaries were stay behind units and very elite. Later he was in the SOE and trained guerillas in Albania. Quayle was the real deal! :007)
Here are some bits and pieces I've found on David Niven's war record:
"Ive been reading Lord Ashcroft's book Special Forces Heroes and it mentions Major Gordon Webb MC of Dieppe fame Its says he did his commando training pre Achnacarry in North West Scotland and was given demolition instruction by the Hollywood actor David Niven."
"David Niven received training at STC Lochailort in the early war years, which was operational as the first Independent Companies, SOE and special forces Special Training Centre from May 1940 onwards."
"For example Niven was 'unofficially' at Dieppe with Lord Lovat."
"...it does seem he was on the Dieppe raid It was hushed up because he disobeyed orders by going. He lead A-Section of Phantom following Major Mills-Roberts to attack the Hess Battery."
Some sources say Niven was an army commando, others say he was an RM commando. I really don't know ....
Some sources say Niven was an army commando, others say he was an RM commando. I really don't know ....
He was Army, originally HLI (he hated the tartan trews) before he moved to Hollywood then on return he regained his commission. RM Commandos were not formed until 1942 with the first proper unit in October of that year.
My pet theory is Alex O'Loughlin will be next.
Based purely on the "missed out the first time around" phenomenon that Moore, Dalton and Brosnan experienced.
The prevailing wind amongst the (admittedly not as Bond obsessed as I am) folk I hang out with is blowing in direction of Tom Hiddleston or Aiden Turner.
O'Loughlin is 40. Might be a bit older than what EON may be looking for considering the typical three year span between films these days. Most people in the States have no idea that he is not American as they only know him from Hawaii Five-O. He is a youthful looking 40 however.
Hmm,interesting discussion. I will say the most dangerous for me was certainly Connery. Lazenby as well, and then Craig.
Connery by far though.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,990Quartermasters
I think it's high time to re-start the Goran Visnjic (sic?) rumour hype train once again )
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"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Indeed he was Stag along with David Niven and that is why I cannot buy into DC being Flemings Bond!!!! Someone is bound to reply to this about IF hating SC at first and then changing his mind, in fact this was more than likely due to money, with the films IF income went through the roof, IF was hardly going to say publicly that SC was not how his Bond should be, he wanted the films to be as successful as possible. Btw Stag you were a very lucky man to have a mother like that, mine was the other end of the spectrum a lying, cheating, alcoholic bitch (can't choose your relatives) -{
I don't have that much of a problem of Craig as Fleming's Bond, outside his light hair. It's true that they intentionally ramped up the tough, physical, colder aspects of the character that we knew from the novels over the more humorous/lighter side because they were now competing in the violent, Bourne film era of action films. I enjoyed that because it had either been missing too much from the series or was weakened by stale, weak puns following the action. EON wrote Craig's scripts to show him as a more real character who actually had feelings (as the one in the novels) as opposed to the playboy in the tux they developed beginning with GF. Sure it was an original, ideal creation for a cinematic man of action at the time - which is why it spawned so many parodies, but when they started parodying their own creation, it drove the series further away from Fleming's original hero. When they got just the right balance - as with the first two films and OHMSS, it worked well for me. When they started letting the humor in more often it undermined the psuedo reality of the stories for me (and it only got worse when they ran out of Fleming's material). They tried to rebalance it with films like FYEO, the Dalton entries and even GEYE, but they just could not let go of their funnybones. It took 9/11 and allowing them to film CR to finally let go. That's why I have enjoyed Craig's scripts - they used the dark, sardonic, infrequent humor of the novels that was missing from my idea of who Bond was.
Fleming knew that the films and his books were two different animals and after seeing Connery in the first two and the cash started flowing in he decided he would leave EON to do it their way. Fleming's idea of Bond was based on the commando/spy characters he knew from the war - his brother Peter, Niven (who was a Boodles club member friend) and the men in his Red Indians. It's why he suggested Niven - he was the type of witty, educated (Niven went to Stowe as did many famous people like Prince Rainier III of Monaco) London born Englishman who Fleming had in his social circle of friends. However, Niven's screen persona was as a gentle, urbane and witty man - not the type of tough man of action that the EON films would require to sell internationally. Strangely, the photo from the Guns of Navarone remind me that of the characters in film, the one I thought came closest to my idea of Bond would have been Peck's. He was a serious,moral, careful, calculating, thinking officer who believed they were there to get a mission done no matter what and that was it. Niven's character - which he played wonderfully and was more in line with how he was in person - was someone who detested war and used levity to get through it. He only wanted to survive the conflict and if his expertise would help him do it, he knew he had to focus on being the better at it than anyone else. It's why I always thought Moore's interpretation of Bond was more in line of how Niven would have played it - heavy on the humor/slapstick and making light of the violence. If EON could have actually used Niven (he was already over 50 - too old by then), I'm certain they would have started writing the scripts the same way they did for Moore right from the start.
Fleming only made bond Scottish after he had seen Connery in dr no. Upto that point bond was English and he was dead against Connery playing bond.
The Lycett Fleming biography suggests otherwise. Apparently there are notes in the Fleming archive that strongly suggest that Bond was always going to have Scottish roots. The notes predate the casting. I was surprised as I had always believed that it was as you state, but apparently not.
That's always been my assumption as well. Fleming was proud of his family's Scottish roots and I feel that a non Scottish actor had been given the role in the beginning Fleming would still have mention Bond as having a Scottish background when he wrote YOLT. Connery being Scottish was just coincidental IMO and really had no bearing on the matter - I think it just made for better press.
EON wrote Craig's scripts to show him as a more real character who actually had feelings (as the one in the novels) as opposed to the playboy in the tux they developed beginning with GF.
The feelings that Fleming wrote about are absent from the Craig films just like they are from most of the others. Craig's Bond is such a machine, both when he kills and when he's in love.
Thought Tom Hiddleston could have made a good Bond untill my daughter pointed out that he resembles Stewart the creepy comic store owner in Big Bang Theory and now can't get out of my mind ) ) )
I think he looks rather like some hatchling that just pecked its way out of the shell. He just looks too delicate and baby bird like for me to take him seriously as Bond.
Have you seen the Night Manager yet? I believe episode 3 has just aired in the U.S. AS It progresses the toughness emerges . He is more than capable. Maybe a couple of months upper body work but that's about it in my view,
Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
Looking "Hard" can have its problems too, I look like a bulldog chewing a wasp !
I once heard the locks of a car being put on as I walked towards a car ) But
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Comments
This is why I don't believe Bond should be as brutal and stone-faced as Daniel Craig's portrayal. Bond can still be someone with personality and only bring out the toughness when necessary.
Yes indeed. I'd still like to see Bond succeed by his wits more. Daniel is superb in action, but can seem a little one note. He may be too badass for my tastes. Bond needs that balance that Connery, Dalton, and surprisingly Brosnan brought. I think Hiddleston demonstrates it well in Night Manager BTW.
My grandfather was a PT instructor and forces boxing champ, he was also a lovely man, though was fond of good fight now and then.
Our view of hardness and tough men has changed a lot, though generally speaking society is getting softer.
I have found more on Antony Quayle. He started out in the artillery, but then he became the second Intelligence Officer for the Northumberland Auxiliary Units. The Auxiliaries were stay behind units and very elite. Later he was in the SOE and trained guerillas in Albania. Quayle was the real deal! :007)
See link: http://www.coleshillhouse.com/captain-john-anthony-quayle.php
Here are some bits and pieces I've found on David Niven's war record:
"Ive been reading Lord Ashcroft's book Special Forces Heroes and it mentions Major Gordon Webb MC of Dieppe fame Its says he did his commando training pre Achnacarry in North West Scotland and was given demolition instruction by the Hollywood actor David Niven."
"David Niven received training at STC Lochailort in the early war years, which was operational as the first Independent Companies, SOE and special forces Special Training Centre from May 1940 onwards."
"For example Niven was 'unofficially' at Dieppe with Lord Lovat."
"...it does seem he was on the Dieppe raid It was hushed up because he disobeyed orders by going. He lead A-Section of Phantom following Major Mills-Roberts to attack the Hess Battery."
Some sources say Niven was an army commando, others say he was an RM commando. I really don't know ....
He was Army, originally HLI (he hated the tartan trews) before he moved to Hollywood then on return he regained his commission. RM Commandos were not formed until 1942 with the first proper unit in October of that year.
Was Niven Alfred?
Based purely on the "missed out the first time around" phenomenon that Moore, Dalton and Brosnan experienced.
The prevailing wind amongst the (admittedly not as Bond obsessed as I am) folk I hang out with is blowing in direction of Tom Hiddleston or Aiden Turner.
Too old and too short.
Right. No chance there.
Connery by far though.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I don't have that much of a problem of Craig as Fleming's Bond, outside his light hair. It's true that they intentionally ramped up the tough, physical, colder aspects of the character that we knew from the novels over the more humorous/lighter side because they were now competing in the violent, Bourne film era of action films. I enjoyed that because it had either been missing too much from the series or was weakened by stale, weak puns following the action. EON wrote Craig's scripts to show him as a more real character who actually had feelings (as the one in the novels) as opposed to the playboy in the tux they developed beginning with GF. Sure it was an original, ideal creation for a cinematic man of action at the time - which is why it spawned so many parodies, but when they started parodying their own creation, it drove the series further away from Fleming's original hero. When they got just the right balance - as with the first two films and OHMSS, it worked well for me. When they started letting the humor in more often it undermined the psuedo reality of the stories for me (and it only got worse when they ran out of Fleming's material). They tried to rebalance it with films like FYEO, the Dalton entries and even GEYE, but they just could not let go of their funnybones. It took 9/11 and allowing them to film CR to finally let go. That's why I have enjoyed Craig's scripts - they used the dark, sardonic, infrequent humor of the novels that was missing from my idea of who Bond was.
Fleming knew that the films and his books were two different animals and after seeing Connery in the first two and the cash started flowing in he decided he would leave EON to do it their way. Fleming's idea of Bond was based on the commando/spy characters he knew from the war - his brother Peter, Niven (who was a Boodles club member friend) and the men in his Red Indians. It's why he suggested Niven - he was the type of witty, educated (Niven went to Stowe as did many famous people like Prince Rainier III of Monaco) London born Englishman who Fleming had in his social circle of friends. However, Niven's screen persona was as a gentle, urbane and witty man - not the type of tough man of action that the EON films would require to sell internationally. Strangely, the photo from the Guns of Navarone remind me that of the characters in film, the one I thought came closest to my idea of Bond would have been Peck's. He was a serious,moral, careful, calculating, thinking officer who believed they were there to get a mission done no matter what and that was it. Niven's character - which he played wonderfully and was more in line with how he was in person - was someone who detested war and used levity to get through it. He only wanted to survive the conflict and if his expertise would help him do it, he knew he had to focus on being the better at it than anyone else. It's why I always thought Moore's interpretation of Bond was more in line of how Niven would have played it - heavy on the humor/slapstick and making light of the violence. If EON could have actually used Niven (he was already over 50 - too old by then), I'm certain they would have started writing the scripts the same way they did for Moore right from the start.
That's always been my assumption as well. Fleming was proud of his family's Scottish roots and I feel that a non Scottish actor had been given the role in the beginning Fleming would still have mention Bond as having a Scottish background when he wrote YOLT. Connery being Scottish was just coincidental IMO and really had no bearing on the matter - I think it just made for better press.
The feelings that Fleming wrote about are absent from the Craig films just like they are from most of the others. Craig's Bond is such a machine, both when he kills and when he's in love.
I once heard the locks of a car being put on as I walked towards a car
infact, I'm just a big Teddy Bear