The reason why I hate the Conti score so much is because it works against FYEO's supposedly serious tone imo.
With Serra's score, I think it works well within the context of the movie. It fits the sort of movie it's in, whereas Conti's score does the opposite imo (specifically, the party music parts).
Though there are some good moments, Serra's score is mostly noise. It's just as dated as Conti's, but Conti's still works within the framework of a Bond film. Serra's score sounds like it could be put into any "B" European action film.
In terms of Conti's "disco" score, that's not particularly accurate. Some tracks come off that way, certainly, but that didn't start with Conti. The Spy Who Loved Me really introduced "Disco Bond" in terms of music, and even Barry himself brought some of that to Moonraker (and more or less would do the same when he updated the Bond theme in The Living Daylights).
Conti managed some genuine Barry-esque moments, such as in "Submarine":
And it worked. Sheena Easton's lovely title song was a huge pop hit, and elements of Conti's score were used in commercials and in sports programs. They were products of their time, but one could say that of most soundtracks.
Mendes has an odd feel to him, hard to quantity but the art house underpinnings seem anti-Bondian at times, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, I get that. Mendes still did well with the scripts he got though IMO.
Nah, I think he gets carried away with himself, sometimes it works but sometimes he needs a good editor, both his Bond films could do with some trimming IMHO (I'm not Peter Hunt, I just don a cap and mask and pretend to be online, lol).
They are very different, but my two favourite Craig films. Let's see how they rate against each other...
6) Story. One had too little, the other too much. Again, a tie.
This is a good observation. SP had enough story for almost two two-hour long movies. With only 150 minutes to work with some stuff (the Bond-Swann relationship) was given short shrift. Other parts of the story I'm not too keen on, but I'm not going to rehash that.
But the QOS story was confusing, half-baked, and often unintelligible. I felt like I was watching a movie made from the first draft of a script.
I think both QOS and SP were missed opportunities.
I just got through the Craig Bonds on my watch-through and I have to say that Spectre is my favorite of his, with Skyfall close behind. I didn't like QoS as much as I did the first time I saw it in the theater, I think then, I just saw it as a breath of fresh air after the relentlessly dour, dull, and humorless trudge that was Casino Royale.
There's a real difference between CR/QoS, and the Mendes-directed films and, in fact, I think he might be the best director the series has ever had. SF and SP are beautifully shot and directed films, probably the most fully-realized on a visual level of any Bonds. This is more apparent in SF, where Istanbul, Shanghai, and Macau are all show-stopping sequences, but SP has its moments too. And Craig is settling into the role here too, he's at his best in SP. CR was a jarring departure from what the character had been, and he was given barely anything to say in QoS, but here he has space to breathe and he does good work.
The real problem with these films, and why I have them in the middle of my list rather than near the top, is the story and the writing often feels rote, like the writers are cribbing notes from every script that's going around town and coming together with a mish-mash of backstories and motivations that really don't make much sense in the context of a Bond film. In SP, these problems are easier to ignore than in SF, which is why I prefer it.... also, Lea Seydoux is excellent as the BG as opposed to... no BG. I'm also optimistic about Waltz as Blofeld, even though he was more set-up than delivery in SP.
It feels like the producers have gotten comfortable with the idea of making James Bond movies again... for awhile, there seemed to be a visceral horror at the character and they really treated him like crap, took away his toys, stripped him down to nothing and made him crawl in the mud... but slowly, starting in SF, some of the classic Bond elements have started to be brought back online and that process is pretty much complete in SP. I was not a Craig fan initially, and he's still not one of my favorites, but I hope he sticks around for a couple more films, it feels like they're just getting started now.
... I just can't believe this is even up for debate. Why do so many people hate/dislike Spectre? It was a terrific film. Qos is one of the most forgettable Bond films to date, with nothing really redeemable about it whatsoever.
They are very different, but my two favourite Craig films. Let's see how they rate against each other...
1) Action. Nearly equal, but I'll give it to QOS just for the crazy car chase in the PTS.
2) Fights. Although Slate was great, the one with Hinx was EPIC. SP.
3) Cinematography. Both looked gorgeous, but SP was just a bit more sumptuous.
4) Humour. SP without a doubt.
5) Bond Girl. This is mostly a matter of taste, and they were both great, so for me, a tie.
6) Story. One had too little, the other too much. Again, a tie.
7) Villain. Waltz takes it away in SP.
8) Henchman. Hinx in SP.
9) Title song. This may be controversial, but I actually preferred AWTD to TWOTW. QOS.
10) Score. QOS.
11) Dan himself. Always great. Tie.
That's 6 for QOS & 8 for SP. Yeah, about what I expected.
Anyone else?
Time has passed, let me re-do this & see if there are any changes....
1) Action. Nearly equal, but I'll give it to QOS just for the crazy car chase in the PTS.SAME
2) Fights. Although Slate was great, the one with Hinx was EPIC. SP. SAME
3) Cinematography. Both looked gorgeous, a tie. CHANGE
4) Humour. Actually, they straight up tie. CHANGE
5) Bond Girl. This is mostly a matter of taste, and they were both great, so for me, a tie. SAME
6) Story. QOS was a straightforward story with no nonsense. CHANGE
7) Villain. Waltz takes it away in SP. SAME
8) Henchman. Hinx in SP. SAME
9) Title song- TWOTW has grown on me. CHANGE
10) Score. QOS. SAME
11) Dan himself. Always great. Tie. SAME
NOW, that's 7 for QOS & 7 for SP. Hmmpf...
I still rate QOS as the better film regardless. -{
I found QoS not hard to follow and think it's one of only a few of the films where it balances emotion with action. The ending is really powerful but completly undone by Skyfall. I do like Spectre but QoS feels more Craig Bond. Neither of the Mendes films feel like they fit with Craig's portrayal.
I agree. I enjoy all of Craigs films, but couldn't help feeling dissapointed how in Skyfall we jumped straight to the old, tired bond, I loved the vigour of CR and QoS, I really feel they should have stuck with the tone of Craigs first 2.
I agree 100% with the two previous posts. Could never really say what it was, both SF and SP are great movies but they just don't connect to the other two, especially the character of Bond himself. He seems tired and almost bitter/cynical (although the humor is back in SP) and a completely different person compared to CR-QOS. Sure a character can develop but we didn't see that development on screen. The young agent who had just overcome his issues (grief about Vesper etc.) becomes the "old dog" with no explanation whatsoever...
And I just realized for the first time this is actually why I want a new actor to take over even though Craig is my favorite. I think they lost track of what they wanted to do with him and the old energy is not going to come back if he stays.
"I'm afraid I'm a complicated woman. "
"- That is something to be afraid of."
I agree 100% with the two previous posts. Could never really say what it was, both SF and SP are great movies but they just don't connect to the other two, especially the character of Bond himself. He seems tired and almost bitter/cynical (although the humor is back in SP) and a completely different person compared to CR-QOS. Sure a character can develop but we didn't see that development on screen. The young agent who had just overcome his issues (grief about Vesper etc.) becomes the "old dog" with no explanation whatsoever...
And I just realized for the first time this is actually why I want a new actor to take over even though Craig is my favorite. I think they lost track of what they wanted to do with him and the old energy is not going to come back if he stays.
I think Mendes just made the films he wanted to make, irrelevant of what had come before or considering the successful reboot and the new dynamic character of Bond. After qos I felt a stand alone fully sanctioned mission was in the offing.
I don't know enough about movie-making to really evaluate this, but I think the right balance needs to be struck in finding a good director with his own style and (possibly) ideas but then also to include this fittingly into a wider narrative. But Mendes didn't come up with the script(s) himself so I don't know who is really at fault here (and most will argue since the movies were so succesful there was no fault at all). And then again Bond movies even within one actor's tenure have never had this strict sense of continuity (LTK is a very different film from TLD for example). However if we are to accept them as loosely connected adventures which don't need to necessarily make sense in context, well then why all the ret-conning in SP? But I digress...
"I'm afraid I'm a complicated woman. "
"- That is something to be afraid of."
I agree 100% with the two previous posts. Could never really say what it was, both SF and SP are great movies but they just don't connect to the other two, especially the character of Bond himself. He seems tired and almost bitter/cynical (although the humor is back in SP) and a completely different person compared to CR-QOS. Sure a character can develop but we didn't see that development on screen. The young agent who had just overcome his issues (grief about Vesper etc.) becomes the "old dog" with no explanation whatsoever...
And I just realized for the first time this is actually why I want a new actor to take over even though Craig is my favorite. I think they lost track of what they wanted to do with him and the old energy is not going to come back if he stays.
I agree. Also, SF and SP don't even connect to each other.
To be honest, I think the problem is lies more with the writers than with Mendes. To me the stories in and of itself are where Craig's movies (and Brosnan's last three) are lacking.
OT: I had a lot of fun watching SPECTRE the first two times I saw it, something I never felt with QoS. And for me fun is the most important thing when watching a Bond movie. It has to be a spectacle, it can be a bit silly, but I want to walk out of the cinema with a big smile on my face. GE was the first Bond movie I saw in the cinema (walking out with a big smile) and only CR and SPECTRE had that effect after GE.
I actually prefer QOS to SP.The opening car chase in QOS is way superior to SP's because theres actual tension, energy and vehicular damage. In SP the cars don't even touch at all in a rididulously tensionless and dull chase which is more of a showcase of the cars and Rome. Beyond that QOS excels in its quieter moments like Bond alone at the airplane bar and Mathis death scene. Also Bond was way more badass in QOS, whereas Craig's Bond in SP seemed to be a more neutered.
Although neither is very good, Spectre edges out QOS. While QOS did have a few good scenes it was hopelessly confused (and confusing). It needed two or three major re-writes.
The one advantage QOS had over SP was Craig's performance. His intensity kept QOS going just as the story was often falling apart. I wouldn't say he mailed it in in SP, but his performance did lack the intensity of his first three Bond films.
QoS is the only Craig film that doesn't dwell on his past or try to get extra personal. He's neither a rookie agent or a burnt out agent.
To me it's a pure Bond film like TND except tailor made for Craig's intense style of Bond.
Spectre tries to deliver a classic Bond, but can't resist the temptation to make it personal and create family ties with Blofeld and a mysterious past for Bond.
I give the edge to QoS, but I like both much better than CR and Skyfall.
My current 10 favorite:
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
QoS is the only Craig film that doesn't dwell on his past or try to get extra personal. He's neither a rookie agent or a burnt out agent.
To me it's a pure Bond film like TND except tailor made for Craig's intense style of Bond.
Spectre tries to deliver a classic Bond, but can't resist the temptation to make it personal and create family ties with Blofeld and a mysterious past for Bond.
I give the edge to QoS, but I like both much better than CR and Skyfall.
The one advantage QOS had over SP was Craig's performance. His intensity kept QOS going just as the story was often falling apart. I wouldn't say he mailed it in in SP, but his performance did lack the intensity of his first three Bond films.
Good point. I really enjoy Craig in QoS - honestly, I think it's his best performance. He plays it really tough, really smooth, funny and well-oiled (figuratively). CR he's a rookie (accurately), SF and SP he's just rocked around by stupid, close to home plots. Almost in SP too, he may have had enough of the role...
Comments
In terms of Conti's "disco" score, that's not particularly accurate. Some tracks come off that way, certainly, but that didn't start with Conti. The Spy Who Loved Me really introduced "Disco Bond" in terms of music, and even Barry himself brought some of that to Moonraker (and more or less would do the same when he updated the Bond theme in The Living Daylights).
Conti managed some genuine Barry-esque moments, such as in "Submarine":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtLjTnG16rk
And it worked. Sheena Easton's lovely title song was a huge pop hit, and elements of Conti's score were used in commercials and in sports programs. They were products of their time, but one could say that of most soundtracks.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Also, this story was pretty grim: lake in Boilva gone
This is a good observation. SP had enough story for almost two two-hour long movies. With only 150 minutes to work with some stuff (the Bond-Swann relationship) was given short shrift. Other parts of the story I'm not too keen on, but I'm not going to rehash that.
But the QOS story was confusing, half-baked, and often unintelligible. I felt like I was watching a movie made from the first draft of a script.
I think both QOS and SP were missed opportunities.
We obsess.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
There's a real difference between CR/QoS, and the Mendes-directed films and, in fact, I think he might be the best director the series has ever had. SF and SP are beautifully shot and directed films, probably the most fully-realized on a visual level of any Bonds. This is more apparent in SF, where Istanbul, Shanghai, and Macau are all show-stopping sequences, but SP has its moments too. And Craig is settling into the role here too, he's at his best in SP. CR was a jarring departure from what the character had been, and he was given barely anything to say in QoS, but here he has space to breathe and he does good work.
The real problem with these films, and why I have them in the middle of my list rather than near the top, is the story and the writing often feels rote, like the writers are cribbing notes from every script that's going around town and coming together with a mish-mash of backstories and motivations that really don't make much sense in the context of a Bond film. In SP, these problems are easier to ignore than in SF, which is why I prefer it.... also, Lea Seydoux is excellent as the BG as opposed to... no BG. I'm also optimistic about Waltz as Blofeld, even though he was more set-up than delivery in SP.
It feels like the producers have gotten comfortable with the idea of making James Bond movies again... for awhile, there seemed to be a visceral horror at the character and they really treated him like crap, took away his toys, stripped him down to nothing and made him crawl in the mud... but slowly, starting in SF, some of the classic Bond elements have started to be brought back online and that process is pretty much complete in SP. I was not a Craig fan initially, and he's still not one of my favorites, but I hope he sticks around for a couple more films, it feels like they're just getting started now.
1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Craig 5. Lazenby 6. Brosnan
1) Action. Nearly equal, but I'll give it to QOS just for the crazy car chase in the PTS.SAME
2) Fights. Although Slate was great, the one with Hinx was EPIC. SP. SAME
3) Cinematography. Both looked gorgeous, a tie. CHANGE
4) Humour. Actually, they straight up tie. CHANGE
5) Bond Girl. This is mostly a matter of taste, and they were both great, so for me, a tie. SAME
6) Story. QOS was a straightforward story with no nonsense. CHANGE
7) Villain. Waltz takes it away in SP. SAME
8) Henchman. Hinx in SP. SAME
9) Title song- TWOTW has grown on me. CHANGE
10) Score. QOS. SAME
11) Dan himself. Always great. Tie. SAME
NOW, that's 7 for QOS & 7 for SP. Hmmpf...
I still rate QOS as the better film regardless. -{
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
And I just realized for the first time this is actually why I want a new actor to take over even though Craig is my favorite. I think they lost track of what they wanted to do with him and the old energy is not going to come back if he stays.
"- That is something to be afraid of."
"- That is something to be afraid of."
I agree. Also, SF and SP don't even connect to each other.
OT: I had a lot of fun watching SPECTRE the first two times I saw it, something I never felt with QoS. And for me fun is the most important thing when watching a Bond movie. It has to be a spectacle, it can be a bit silly, but I want to walk out of the cinema with a big smile on my face. GE was the first Bond movie I saw in the cinema (walking out with a big smile) and only CR and SPECTRE had that effect after GE.
Spectre fell just short of being a good movie.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
To me it's a pure Bond film like TND except tailor made for Craig's intense style of Bond.
Spectre tries to deliver a classic Bond, but can't resist the temptation to make it personal and create family ties with Blofeld and a mysterious past for Bond.
I give the edge to QoS, but I like both much better than CR and Skyfall.
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Good point. I really enjoy Craig in QoS - honestly, I think it's his best performance. He plays it really tough, really smooth, funny and well-oiled (figuratively). CR he's a rookie (accurately), SF and SP he's just rocked around by stupid, close to home plots. Almost in SP too, he may have had enough of the role...
"Better make that two."