Pros and Cons: Octopussy

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  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    Dale wrote:
    'That'll keep you in curry for a few weeks'

    'Zooming in on a pair of tits'

    'Grabbing a woman and planting a forced tongue in her mouth'

    This really was a different time. But all the more funny because of it! Loved Roger here, but I often wondered what direction he was given. It must have been like 'Alright Rog, wink, now act serious, do your smile, roll your eyes, act tough...bit all over the place but to be fair to him he could act and it must have been hard actually to play Bond in that era. Hats off to him, hard to imagine any other actr carrying Bond through through those times

    {[]

    There really are a few things in Octopussy which are very rude, and when I showed the film to a group of mates, they couldn't believe how many big-breasted woman were often in shot! Once I noticed, I couldn't believe it either!

    But yeah, Roger Moore, absolute perfection.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • FiremassFiremass AlaskaPosts: 1,910MI6 Agent
    Dale wrote:
    'That'll keep you in curry for a few weeks'
    'Zooming in on a pair of tits'
    'Grabbing a woman and planting a forced tongue in her mouth'

    1. I still don't understand the line about curry. I have a feeling it's probably slightly racist?

    2. I recently found some old skateboard footage when I was 18 and I totally zoomed in on some girl's cleavage. Bond is too old to be doing this at the workplace IMO.

    3. By 1983 they should have known better. This scene with Maud is the thing that bothers me most about OP. I don't even get why she got so offended in the first place or why Bond thought kissing her would solve the issue. Maybe it made more sense on paper.
    My current 10 favorite:

    1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    Firemass wrote:
    1. I still don't understand the line about curry. I have a feeling it's probably slightly racist?

    Definitely racist due to the assumption that Indians eat only curry, but it's not spoken with an offensive tone. I can imagine the same thing being said to be with the kind of food my people stereotypically eat. Depending on the tone I could take it as a joke or take considerable offence to it.
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  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    You should see the jokes about haggis I get in the S&BS, and I'm not offended.
  • DaleDale Posts: 12MI6 Agent
    Firemass wrote:
    Dale wrote:
    'That'll keep you in curry for a few weeks'
    'Zooming in on a pair of tits'
    'Grabbing a woman and planting a forced tongue in her mouth'

    1. I still don't understand the line about curry. I have a feeling it's probably slightly racist?

    2. I recently found some old skateboard footage when I was 18 and I totally zoomed in on some girl's cleavage. Bond is too old to be doing this at the workplace IMO.

    3. By 1983 they should have known better. This scene with Maud is the thing that bothers me most about OP. I don't even get why she got so offended in the first place or why Bond thought kissing her would solve the issue. Maybe it made more sense on paper.


    There's no doubt the line about the curry would be considered a 'racist' comment nowadays and perhaps even then. The only genre that could still get away with a line like that would be comedy which to be honest, Octopussy does border ON comedy drama.
    I think if he'd have said it to a stranger it would have been totally rude, however the way Moore delivered it and the warm reception it received from his ally meant that it wasn't very awkward. I'll admit I laughed my head off, followed by a .WHAT?'

    I thought the scene with him and Maud was a little random and felt like Bond girls took a massive step backwards. One minute she wants to throttle him, the next he grabs her by the neck and she succumbs, moaning Oh Jaaaames' :)) Fifty shades of Moore.

    There was also another scene in this movie that I found a little weird. Q is out on the field. He dodges getting his head sawed off, finds a supposedly mutilated body (Vijay) watches him die and takes it in his stride! Q has never seen a dead body before (at least on screen) and I always thought he could have appeared a bit more shaken. Just a thought!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,061MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    You should see the jokes about haggis I get in the S&BS, and I'm not offended.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3bwT6YAif4
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • The Wicker ManThe Wicker Man EnglandPosts: 434MI6 Agent
    Firemass wrote:
    Dale wrote:
    'That'll keep you in curry for a few weeks'
    'Zooming in on a pair of tits'
    'Grabbing a woman and planting a forced tongue in her mouth'

    1. I still don't understand the line about curry. I have a feeling it's probably slightly racist?

    2. I recently found some old skateboard footage when I was 18 and I totally zoomed in on some girl's cleavage. Bond is too old to be doing this at the workplace IMO.

    3. By 1983 they should have known better. This scene with Maud is the thing that bothers me most about OP. I don't even get why she got so offended in the first place or why Bond thought kissing her would solve the issue. Maybe it made more sense on paper.

    There are certainly issues with OP, but I can honestly say there is no other Bond film I get so much enjoyment out of from beginning to end. -{
    1.ohmss 2.cr 3.frwl 4.ltk 5.gf 6.tswlm 7.sf 8.op 9.tld 10.dn 11.lald 12.tb 13.fyeo 14.ge 15.mr 16.yolt 17.tnd 18.avtak 19.sp 20.twine 21.qos 22.tmwtgg 23.daf 24.dad
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,061MI6 Agent
    There are certainly issues with OP, but I can honestly say there is no other Bond film I get so much enjoyment out of from beginning to end. -{
    Yeah, I'd say it the most 'fun' Bond of the entire series. {[]
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • mattindubaimattindubai Posts: 6MI6 Agent
    Watched it again on TV yesterday, still one of my favourites but I'm still confused about one thing regarding the egg.

    Kamal and Orlov have a reproduction made so that they can sell the original at auction. That reproduction gets stolen by 009 (though we don't know how) and, as an inventory at the depository is about to take place, Orlov orders for the original to be bought back at the auction by Kamal presumably so that it can be placed it back into the depository in time for the inventory so that he won't get found out.

    Kamal buys what he thinks is the original but of course we know it's the reproduction which Bond switches during the auction. Does Kamal find out at some point that he didn't buy the genuine egg? Does he realise when Bond produces the genuine egg during the backgammon match that what he bought must be the fake? And what happened to the egg that Kamal bought (the fake one)?

    And why does Orlov smash what he thinks is the fake while the look on Kamal's face indicates it's the genuine egg. Surely if Kamal has both he'd have both of them with him at that point. Orlov knows that Kamal bought the original (or what he thought was the original) at the auction so, if he's being told by Kamal that they have the fake as well, wouldn't he have checked that the egg in his hand was the fake one before smashing it up?

    Any pointers?
    'Wait till you get to my teeth!'
  • mattindubaimattindubai Posts: 6MI6 Agent
    And, come to think of it, why didn't Orlov just ask for the original egg to withdrawn from the auction in the first place? Presumably he or Kamal (or, indeed Lenkin) must have known who the 'anonymous seller' was and could have got them make a call to Southebys!
    'Wait till you get to my teeth!'
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    Good questions, have a look here for an earlier discussion-
    http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/41908/octopussy-why-did-orlov-destroy-the-real-egg/
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,238MI6 Agent
    OP is a bit like YOLT in that it is quite opulent, overblown and overheated, also quite sexist. Both films were in competition that year, one with the spoof CR and the other with Connery's NSNA. Though ironically, a lot of OP comically is on a par with the spoof CR.

    Re sexism, along with the moments mentioned, there's when Q hands Bond's torn tux to a woman employee and says 'Oh, fix that will you...' in a cursory way, it's a 'Quarrel fetch my shoes' moment.

    Another dodgy moment is the 'nightcap' joke, with Bond possibly looking at Gobinda's turban.

    Ironically, I'd say Moore looks better to me than Connery did in a lot of YOLT, despite being so much older. Let alone Connery in NSNA; he should have looked okay but it didn't work on any level for me, that film.

    The year it came out, 1983, was a heatwave that summer in the UK so my memory of it is influenced by that.

    I must say the countdown to detonation moment is brilliant, and the use of extras in that scene is wholly convincing, unlike in Craig's CR at Miami Airport, or SF and the London Underground.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    And, come to think of it, why didn't Orlov just ask for the original egg to withdrawn from the auction in the first place? Presumably he or Kamal (or, indeed Lenkin) must have known who the 'anonymous seller' was and could have got them make a call to Southebys!

    That's true, but wouldn't have been dramatic or interesting enough. I think overall, Kamal was being dishonest to everyone (OP and Orlov).

    The thread that Barbel links to highlights that Kamal knows what's going on but appears to be attempting to profit from the whole thing by keeping both eggs and selling them both - something kept from Orlov - who in turns smashes the real egg by mistake.

    I have to say that it's confusing, but it just appears that instead of Bond sleeping his way into the villain's view, the Faberge egg provides enough bait and is the general plot device with some complexity hidden behind it all.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • FiremassFiremass AlaskaPosts: 1,910MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Good questions, have a look here for an earlier discussion-
    http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/41908/octopussy-why-did-orlov-destroy-the-real-egg/

    Quite a good thread. Consider moving it from General Chat to the Films section so it gets more notice?
    My current 10 favorite:

    1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    Watched this over the weekend again. Stunning, excellent Bond film.

    A few things struck me with Roger's performance. That while he's having fun, there are some very specific nuances to his acting:

    - The dinner scene with Khan and Magda. Bond is in a tricky situation - he seems slightly scared, but at the same time, a bit weirded out by this strange, classy prison. Moore is striking a perfect balance here between taking the piss out of Khan - but also having to respect this situation which he is literally caught in and keeping calm and suave. "Let me guess, thumb-screws and hot-coals?"

    - First meeting with Octopussy. Moore plays the seriousness of the situation well - he sticks to the task at hand. "Why was one of our agents killed." Then his knowledge of Major Dexter Smythe and that case. Brilliantly presented.

    - When outside the Monsoon Palace, and creeping outside Magda's room - the arrival of Orlov - Bond is suitably reminded of the gravity and unknown situation that's unfolding.

    There's just a perfect balance to his performance. Because while Octopussy is a fun romp, full of sexual titivation, there is some very serious points to counter this. Roger plays it brilliantly.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,061MI6 Agent
    Yes, OP is awesome in no small part to Roger's turn. -{
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • GrindelwaldGrindelwald Posts: 1,294MI6 Agent
    Honestly some of Eddie Murphys 80s stand up routine would not fly today so the curry line is very mild in comparison :p
  • stagstag Posts: 2,083MI6 Agent
    One of my favourite of RMs outings. "SIT!"
  • OddjoblofeldraxorinOddjoblofeldraxorin CaliforniaPosts: 195MI6 Agent
    Just watched it for the first time in a couple years. Love it! It has such a classic feel. The first half takes me back to Goldfinger; Kamal always getting one-upped by Bond, and also Bond being held captive for a large portion of the film. Kamal Khan and Orov are perfect. They are the most underrated Bond villains ever. Steven Berkoff gives a Goldfinger-esque performance In the Soviet Meeting. The sets are so beautiful. The multiple memorable henchmen are up there with LALD's. Sir Rog is badass at 55. He is playful and juvenile in some scenes but extremely serious in the right places. Honestly, I think Roger is way more serious in some scenes in Octopussy than Sir Sean ever was as Bond, yet Roger is known for being the lighthearted Bond.
  • superdaddysuperdaddy englandPosts: 917MI6 Agent
    Just watched it for the first time in a couple years. Love it! It has such a classic feel. The first half takes me back to Goldfinger; Kamal always getting one-upped by Bond, and also Bond being held captive for a large portion of the film. Kamal Khan and Orov are perfect. They are the most underrated Bond villains ever. Steven Berkoff gives a Goldfinger-esque performance In the Soviet Meeting. The sets are so beautiful. The multiple memorable henchmen are up there with LALD's. Sir Rog is badass at 55. He is playful and juvenile in some scenes but extremely serious in the right places. Honestly, I think Roger is way more serious in some scenes in Octopussy than Sir Sean ever was as Bond, yet Roger is known for being the lighthearted Bond.
    {[] my number 2 all time Bond film
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    Honestly, I think Roger is way more serious in some scenes in Octopussy than Sir Sean ever was as Bond, yet Roger is known for being the lighthearted Bond.

    One of the most telling scenes for this is when he goes to Octopussy's Island, and she's too busy flirting and being lighthearted but Roger is having none of it and asks:

    "Depends how much you tell me about jewellery smuggling. And why one of our agents was killed in East Berlin."

    Then once they find mutual connection, he still stays on task and rattles off the mission details perfectly!
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    My main issue with OP is how convoluted the plot is, and no matter how many times I watch it, it remains something of a mystery. What is Kamal Khan's master plan? What is his stake in blowing up some military base? I get what Orlov is trying to do but Khan's endgame seems really difficult to pin down. In the end he comes off as being Orlov's henchman instead of a villainous mastermind. Even so it's still a really good movie
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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I always thought, he was getting all the real jewellery, which would have been
    Worth millions. As his pay off for helping Orlov ?
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  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    I always thought, he was getting all the real jewellery, which would have been
    Worth millions. As his pay off for helping Orlov ?

    Exactly. I didn't understand the plot the first time I watched it (because I was a kid), but now it makes a lot of sense to me. It's a great, realistic plot for a suspenseful spy thriller, and Roger Moore's serious performance in parts lends credulence to the plot.
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  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    Yeah the convoluted aspect of it explains the motives for doing such a thing with Orlov in order to smuggle both the jewellery and the bomb to locations they wish.

    TP is right, Khan wishes to do so because he will make millions of dollars by stealing it away from Octopussy.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • JoviusJovius Albuquerque, NMPosts: 42MI6 Agent
    Pros: It was fun. Had a lot of good Bond elements. The bomb scene was appropriately tense. The opening was fantastic.

    Cons: THAT GODDAMNED TARZAN YELL. Not only did it kill the tension of the scene where he's hunted, it makes no sense for Bond to basically announce himself like that. Octopussy becomes a damsel in distress and gets "seduced" far too easily, a criticism I also have of Pussy Galore in Goldfinger. Bond being an outright perv with the camera. Also, whitewashing, much as Louis Jourdan was great in the role.
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    I always thought, he was getting all the real jewellery, which would have been
    Worth millions. As his pay off for helping Orlov ?
    Yeah the convoluted aspect of it explains the motives for doing such a thing with Orlov in order to smuggle both the jewellery and the bomb to locations they wish.

    TP is right, Khan wishes to do so because he will make millions of dollars by stealing it away from Octopussy.
    So simple, I feel dumb for not getting it. I suppose the narrative just confuses me, it truly is the most convoluted plot in a series that is typically far more straight-forward.
    Jovius wrote:
    Octopussy becomes a damsel in distress and gets "seduced" far too easily, a criticism I also have of Pussy Galore in Goldfinger.
    I think it's a different situation. You can tell from the moment Kamal Khan tells her that he has JAMES BOND in his custody that she wants him. She even orders Khan to bring him to her. I'm not sure what monumental reputation he has that makes her so intrigued, but I don't find it surprising that it takes little effort for Bond to seal to deal.

    I do agree that her becoming the typical damsel at the end is dumb, as soon as Khan grabs her by the arm she becomes helpless. I don't have a problem with the damsel-in-distress cliche, but after making her out to be such a capable character it doesn't make much sense. It's similar to what happens to Anya in TSWLM, but even more jarring.
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  • hehadlotsofgutshehadlotsofguts Durham England Posts: 2,107MI6 Agent
    Bond interrogating Orlov is a great scene, but the reaction of the soldier when Bond shoots him, ruins the scene.
    Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?"

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  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    Diabolik wrote:
    You can tell from the moment Kamal Khan tells her that he has JAMES BOND in his custody that she wants him. She even orders Khan to bring him to her. I'm not sure what monumental reputation he has that makes her so intrigued

    She recognises his name as the British agent who had been sent to bring her father to justice, but who allowed him to "take the decent way out" rather than face a court martial. This is taken from Fleming.

    Edit- she mentions that "Octopussy" was her father's pet name for her. I've always thought that this meant her real name had to be Octavia Smythe, just as Solitaire's is Simone Latrelle.
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    She recognises his name as the British agent who had been sent to bring her father to justice, but who allowed him to "take the decent way out" rather than face a court martial. This is taken from Fleming.
    Damn I forgot about that part, she converses with Bond about it after he sneaks into her room. Even so I can still understand why that would make her far more open to his advances.
    1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
    Bond: Pierce Brosnan Villain: Hugo Drax Girl: Pam Bouvier
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