Black Bond Actor?

Could you ever see a black man cast as James Bond? I think the role should always go to the most fitting man in his generation. But should skin color play a part? Nationality sure hasn't. We've had an Irish James, Scottish James and an Australian James. And none of them really resemble each other. And never forget that the character seems to change age and exists in a world where popular culture and technology is never consistent.

I think that I have met mostly black men who have reminded me of Sean Connery or Daniel Craig. I could see an Asian actor personify Timothy Dalton. Race just doesn't seem very important in casting the character. Besides, "Live and Let Die" and "You Only Live Twice", his race has never really been brought up.
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Comments

  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    No. No Black Bond. Not ever.
  • DEFIANT 74205DEFIANT 74205 Perth, AustraliaPosts: 1,881MI6 Agent
    How much further from Fleming's original character do you want the film Bond to be? Seriously!

    I'm already annoyed at the fact that Daniel Craig doesn't have dark hair. He looks nothing like Bond. Granted, he plays the role well, but so did Timothy Dalton. I haven't warmed to Daniel Craig as Bond as much as I did Timothy Dalton, Sean Connery or George Lazenby. The fact that a woman plays M is another thing that needs to change - back to the roots established in the Fleming novels. Fleming's books described all the major characters' appearance, so I would prefer the actors who play those characters to bear at least some resemblance to the character described.

    I wonder what we'll have next ... Jane Bond, 007 perhaps? 8-)
    "Watch the birdie, you bastard!"
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I always find it funny how when people want to change the race of a character they always go in the same direction,So why not have a Chinese, Indian,Mexican Bond. Or the Next time an actor is needed to Play Ali, N. Mandela, or Martin Luther King. We could Cast D Craig or even M Cyrus as we could change the sex of the character as well.
    I do like J Wright as Leiter, But no change for Bond Please. :#
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • AlessandraAlessandra Lake Garda, ItalyPosts: 633MI6 Agent
    I'm not opposed to the idea because I'm opposed to black actors at all (quite the opposite), I'm opposed to the idea because Bond isn't a black guy but a white guy. I think Craig has got nothing of what Bond should look like and that alone is absolutely unacceptable for me. So a black actor, uh no. Denzel Washington sure could have played the part very well back in the day, but thing is, Bond is not black. He is a WASP, and that's what the actor portraying him has to be. It would be like making Marthin Luther King white instead of black. That's not who he is. Simple as that for me.
    "Are we on coms?" (if you don't know where this is from... you've missed some really good stuff! :D)
  • jorgem1jorgem1 Posts: 136MI6 Agent
    Definitely, Will Smith as James Bond.
  • HardyboyHardyboy Posts: 5,882Chief of Staff
    Sigh. This topic appears with the tedious inevitability of an unloved season.
    Vox clamantis in deserto
  • thesecretagentthesecretagent CornwallPosts: 2,151MI6 Agent
    jorgem1 wrote:
    Definitely, Will Smith as James Bond.

    Hell no!
    Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:

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  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    I am Black and I think there are many fictional characters that could be played by actors of all races. However, for me James Bond is NOT one of those characters. I have been a Bond fan since Dr. No, and given the long history of Bond films I think it would be extremely jarring for 007 to suddenly morph into a Black man (or to become female, for that matter). Make no mistake, I have no problem with a female "M" or a Black Felix Leiter (Bernie Casey was my favorite, and I like Jeffrey Wright as well), nor would I have a problem with an Asian "Q" for example. But in my view Bond MUST be a British WASP, even if he's portrayed by a Scottsman, or an Irishman or even an Austrialian, so long as he is convincing. There are some truly great Black actors out there, but none, I'm afraid, who could convince me that he is a British WASP!
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Are you insane?!!!! You're being sarcastic, right?
    jorgem1 wrote:
    Definitely, Will Smith as James Bond.
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • AlessandraAlessandra Lake Garda, ItalyPosts: 633MI6 Agent
    Are you insane?!!!! You're being sarcastic, right?
    jorgem1 wrote:
    Definitely, Will Smith as James Bond.

    :)) :)) I definitely think the above about Will Smith was sarcasm.

    Thank you for putting up your point of view. It's always a delicate matter when race is involved in a discussion, even a very "light" one like this one. It's great to have your point of view as a black man, since it clearly comes with no bias. I'm glad you better explained the point I was making. I am absolutely not opposed to black actors in many roles, and I love quite a few black actors, but as you said and as I said above, Bond is a WASP. So I really can't see a black actor portraying him. I agree with you on the other Bond roles. It doesn't bother me to see M portrayed by a woman and I'm absolutely in favor of a black Felix Leiter. But Bond is just not changeable that much. I don't even like Craig in the part because to me he doesn't look the part at all, let alone someone who on top of everything else can't ever convince me they're a WASP :))
    Sigh. This topic appears with the tedious inevitability of an unloved season.

    :)) :)) :)) :))

    Hi there, I see this topic has enticed your appetite for more Bond news. Even about what socks he's going to wear I guess? anything but this :))
    "Are we on coms?" (if you don't know where this is from... you've missed some really good stuff! :D)
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    It's great to be able to have a civil on-line discussion about anything race-related, even on a subject as "light" as this, as you so aptly described it. It is often so easy for all sorts of racists and bigots to post the most hateful things imaginable and hide behind the anonimity of the internet. But that discussion is for another time and another site. I would certainly be in favor of another Black opponent for Bond (such as Kanaga in Live and Let Die), and I think Denzel Washington would make for an appropriately formidable foe. I suggested this once before, but someone commented that Washington might be too expensive to play the "secondary" role in an Bond film. That's probably true, but it's too bad because I am convinced that Denzel would be great in such a role.
    Alessandra wrote:
    Are you insane?!!!! You're being sarcastic, right?
    jorgem1 wrote:
    Definitely, Will Smith as James Bond.

    :)) :)) I definitely think the above about Will Smith was sarcasm.

    Thank you for putting up your point of view. It's always a delicate matter when race is involved in a discussion, even a very "light" one like this one. It's great to have your point of view as a black man, since it clearly comes with no bias. I'm glad you better explained the point I was making. I am absolutely not opposed to black actors in many roles, and I love quite a few black actors, but as you said and as I said above, Bond is a WASP. So I really can't see a black actor portraying him. I agree with you on the other Bond roles. It doesn't bother me to see M portrayed by a woman and I'm absolutely in favor of a black Felix Leiter. But Bond is just not changeable that much. I don't even like Craig in the part because to me he doesn't look the part at all, let alone someone who on top of everything else can't ever convince me they're a WASP :))
    Sigh. This topic appears with the tedious inevitability of an unloved season.

    :)) :)) :)) :))

    Hi there, I see this topic has enticed your appetite for more Bond news. Even about what socks he's going to wear I guess? anything but this :))
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • AlessandraAlessandra Lake Garda, ItalyPosts: 633MI6 Agent
    It's great to be able to have a civil on-line discussion about anything race-related, even on a subject as "light" as this, as you so aptly described it. It is often so easy for all sorts of racists and bigots to post the most hateful things imaginable and hide behind the anonimity of the internet. But that discussion is for another time and another site. I would certainly be in favor of another Black opponent for Bond (such as Kanaga in Live and Let Die), and I think Denzel Washington would make for an appropriately formidable foe. I suggested this once before, but someone commented that Washington might be too expensive to play the "secondary" role in an Bond film. That's probably true, but it's too bad because I am convinced that Denzel would be great in such a role.

    I agree with you on the race matter. It saddens me and disgusts me to see certain types of comments online, and I'm very happy everyone is civilly discussing the matter here. If Bond were to be black (and that's not the case, but in theory) as I said previously I think Denzel would've been a great Bond back in the day. I agree that he would make a formidable villain. I'm not entirely sure he's too expensive to be cast as the villain. They've had big actors as villains before, and honestly it's time for Bond to have a much better opponent than those he had in CR and QoS. They need, first off, to pen a villain that is more believable and more "traditionally" Bond villain (for lack of a better adjective) for things to improve. Then they need better actors in the part. Which is when we can have Denzel in the part :D

    If I had to pick a black actor for Bond (just in theory), I'd like Mehcad Brooks. Young actor but not too young (30), very athletic, stylish, and good actor. Just theory though. The practical result instead better be that the next Bond is Henry Cavill :))
    "Are we on coms?" (if you don't know where this is from... you've missed some really good stuff! :D)
  • JamesBondJuniorJamesBondJunior Posts: 67MI6 Agent
    I sort of expected the majority of comments to be against a Black Bond actor. I just really want to know if today's fans are any different from yesterday's. I'm quite positive that if the Bond film series (which has consistently morphed the character and exists in its own continuity) is still around a century from now, that they will cast a non-white actor to play Bond. I think in re-casting Bond, you have to always give audiences something different. I'm 23 and I really believe that the generations younger than mine would really go for the idea. And I think the example of Bond being played by a woman is absurd and has little to do with Bond being played by a man of a different ethnicity.
  • DEFIANT 74205DEFIANT 74205 Perth, AustraliaPosts: 1,881MI6 Agent
    I sort of expected the majority of comments to be against a Black Bond actor. I just really want to know if today's fans are any different from yesterday's. I'm quite positive that if the Bond film series (which has consistently morphed the character and exists in its own continuity) is still around a century from now, that they will cast a non-white actor to play Bond. I think in re-casting Bond, you have to always give audiences something different.

    Absolutely not. If an actor who is not a white anglo saxon person portrayed Bond, I'd boycott the series. That person, to me, would not be Bond. It's bad enough that the current actor doesn't look much like the Bond that Fleming described. It's bad enough that M is being played by a woman. Sorry, I will not bow to political correctness at the expense of adhesion to Fleming's novels. We have already strayed too far from the original Fleming concept, we should not, and must not allow it stray any further. The line must be drawn here, this far and no further!
    "Watch the birdie, you bastard!"
  • AlessandraAlessandra Lake Garda, ItalyPosts: 633MI6 Agent
    I sort of expected the majority of comments to be against a Black Bond actor. I just really want to know if today's fans are any different from yesterday's. I'm quite positive that if the Bond film series (which has consistently morphed the character and exists in its own continuity) is still around a century from now, that they will cast a non-white actor to play Bond. I think in re-casting Bond, you have to always give audiences something different.

    Absolutely not. If an actor who is not a white anglo saxon person portrayed Bond, I'd boycott the series. That person, to me, would not be Bond. It's bad enough that the current actor doesn't look much like the Bond that Fleming described. It's bad enough that M is being played by a woman. Sorry, I will not bow to political correctness at the expense of adhesion to Fleming's novels. We have already strayed too far from the original Fleming concept, we should not, and must not allow it stray any further. The line must be drawn here, this far and no further!

    I agree that there are lines that shouldn't and won't be crossed. This is not about being 23 years old at all and/or having a more "open-minded" vision of the world. Starting from the fact the rest of us here aren't exactly 100 years old (I'm over 30 but not THAT far from 23 :))) I believe this is nothing that has anything to do with evolution.

    This is called coherence and respect for the original character. It won't change with the years because Bond is not a black character, he is not an Asian character and he is not any other ethnicity. He is a WASP and he will go on being a WASP for however long the franchise goes on, simple as that. Elizabeth Bennet from Pride and Prejudice is a WASP too. This is a novel that's been turned into movies and miniseries ever since the 30s. We're EIGHTY years later and a couple or so years ago they did the umpteenth version of it with Keira Knightley. Do you think Elizabeth ever changed ethnicity or hair color even during the 80 years that passed and the many both television and movie versions of the novel? Never. Ever. And neither did the other main characters in the story. (other than maybe Bingley, whose hair color was a ridiculous "reddish" in the Keira Knightley movie version).

    With Bond they've been already too generous letting the character change hair color, and personally I am opposed to it. I am in the annoyed camp because Craig doesn't look like Fleming's Bond at all in my opinion. Yet at the very least he's the right ethnicity :)) These are literary characters with a precise description of their aspect in the novels. THAT is why there should never be and I'm sure there will never be a black Bond or a black Elizabeth Bennet. Because that's NOT who they are. It's got absolutely nothing to do with being modern, being young, or being tolerant. As I said 80 years of making Pride and Prejudice movies never made Elizabeth Bennet change, and it never will. Because she is a WASP, and not anything else. And the exact same applies to the character of James Bond.
    "Are we on coms?" (if you don't know where this is from... you've missed some really good stuff! :D)
  • thesecretagentthesecretagent CornwallPosts: 2,151MI6 Agent
    What the hell is WASP? Please, I'm being serious...
    Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:

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  • AlessandraAlessandra Lake Garda, ItalyPosts: 633MI6 Agent
    What the hell is WASP? Please, I'm being serious...

    White Anglo Saxon Protestant. It's used in the US in particular... :D For powerful/wealthy white people of English descent usually.
    "Are we on coms?" (if you don't know where this is from... you've missed some really good stuff! :D)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    The Man From Uncle also fought WASP in one of their movies.I know this has nothing to do with The question ....................................................................... But I get so Lonley :v
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Mark HazardMark Hazard West Midlands, UKPosts: 495MI6 Agent
    NO! Neither should Felix - Fleming described them in the books and neither was any colour other than white.

    Whilst at Fan Fest earlier this year, there was a group of people canvassing the celebrities and others asking this same question for a video - some of the answers may surprise you, the trailer for this can be found here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GUuN6KJTTU

    as to whether my answer will be included in the final cut remains to be seen - I actually gave two, one with reference to 007 and the other with reference to Felix - although only one was recorded.
  • JamesBondJuniorJamesBondJunior Posts: 67MI6 Agent
    I don't get this idea that James Bond or M or Felix Leiter has to look and act exactly how Fleming described him. Changing M to a woman did nothing negative to the character. In fact, I think it made the relationship to Bond way more intriguing. Its not about being P.C., its about changing the formula when it grows stale and appealing to modern audience's sensibilities. Without that the character will start to die. Its a fictional character we're changing, not the constitution. And I do think its about being more open from one generation to the next. When Fleming was alive, the idea would be unthinkable that a black man could work so tightly for the government and live a fast-paced, high wire lifestyle. Now, with so many black politicians, a black American president and a more ethnically diverse culture, only Bond purists can not see Bond as anything other than a white man. The only thing that identifies the character today is his job and his country. They've even gotten rid of his jokes, gadgets and sexuality for
    's sakes!

    And I think its ridiculous that anyone would care that James Bond is blond. That effects the story and quality of the film in no way whatsoever. Grow up.

    And your Pride and Prejudice argument is silly because that is not a character that molds with the times. In fact, she came from a story, time and place that is actually based its importance on race and background. James Bond in 2011 does not.
  • Alec 006Alec 006 Sydney, AustraliaPosts: 211MI6 Agent
    I am very surprised this topic has raised its head once more, I thought surely this must have just been the revival of an old thread, not a fresh one asking the same old question.

    I get your point JamesBondJunior about the Bond character evolving beyond Fleming's parameters BUT I do feel some aspects of the character are "supporting beams" so to speak to the person of James Bond.

    Blackleiter seems to put it perfectly for me.

    Without certain ingredients a Martini ceases to be a Martini. We can add olives, or lemon peel, or substitute Lillet Blanc for Kina Lillet and it will remain a Martini, but take out the Vodka and the Gin and it replace these "ingredients" from the original designer or maker and it becomes a Capriosca, or a Whisky Sour… etc.

    I mean is John Shaft still John Shaft if he was played by Jason Statham?
    Answer: Of course not.
    He'd be no more convincing in that role than a black actor would be at portraying an ex Royal Navy and SBS Commander now serving MI6 officer, who was brought up as a privileged orphan with a public school education and an Oxbridge degree. It's not a negative reflection in any way, just part of the way things were/are. A massive part of the MI6 recruitment brief is for their people to fit in where they serve. Like it or not in the case of Bond, his history and present is white. I am sure there are MI6 spooks in Somalia that are black African in descent, and Chinese descended agents operating in the street and corridors of Beijing.

    In conclusion a black James Bond? No.
    A black MI6 double "O" in other related adventures? Hell yes.

    In fact come on EON there could be a whole family of double "O" spin-offs here to make money from. Of course as from 03/12/2010 that idea is mine and I will want a cut.

    -{ -{ -{ -{ -{ working on getting the sixth one into the same evening's session.
    Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.
    Oscar Wilde
  • DEFIANT 74205DEFIANT 74205 Perth, AustraliaPosts: 1,881MI6 Agent
    edited December 2010
    I don't get this idea that James Bond or M or Felix Leiter has to look and act exactly how Fleming described him. Changing M to a woman did nothing negative to the character. In fact, I think it made the relationship to Bond way more intriguing. Its not about being P.C., its about changing the formula when it grows stale and appealing to modern audience's sensibilities. Without that the character will start to die. Its a fictional character we're changing, not the constitution.

    With all due respect, it is your radical views that will kill off the character of James Bond, not the other way around. If you want to have a black person play an MI6 double-O agent, go right ahead, but that person cannot be James Bond because Bond is Fleming's invention. We are not free to twist that invention any way we please. It would dishonour Fleming's memory, and it will ruin the work that Fleming has put in to creating this character that we all love. In my view, all the major characters in a Bond film should at least resemble somewhat the characters that Fleming described in his works, and as I alluded to earlier, we have already strayed too far in that respect. I'm all for getting rid of Dame Judi Dench as M, as good an actor as she is, because M in Fleming's novels is not a woman. Neither was Felix Leiter or James Bond black. Would you like it if they hired a woman to play James Bond? No, don't answer that, after all, you're all for being more "open" ...
    When Fleming was alive, the idea would be unthinkable that a black man could work so tightly for the government and live a fast-paced, high wire lifestyle. Now, with so many black politicians, a black American president and a more ethnically diverse culture, only Bond purists can not see Bond as anything other than a white man.

    Call me a Bond purist. Call me a Fleming purist. I don't care, I'd display that title proudly. It's true that when Fleming was alive, it is unthinkable that a black man would work for Her Majesty's government in such a position as that of James Bond. Yes, there are a lot of black politicians, and yes, there is a black American president. That has absolutely nothing to do with the character of James Bond. If you want a black man to play an MI6 Double-O alongside James Bond, I have no problems with that. But a black man cannot, nor can he ever be James Bond, unless of course he happens to have the same name, but he cannot be the same character.
    The only thing that identifies the character today is his job and his country. They've even gotten rid of his jokes, gadgets and sexuality for
    's sakes!

    Wrong. What about the Martini, shaken, not stirred? The Aston Martin (or for us purists, the Bentley)? The Walther PPK? The Bond girls? The jokes were never in Fleming's novels, and while they were refreshing in Connery's and Dalton's era, they were a pain in the Moore era. James Bond is not a comedian, it is not his job to crack wise remarks. The PC brigade may have taken away his cigarettes, but that would be the only characteristic of Bond that is gone.
    And I think its ridiculous that anyone would care that James Bond is blond. That effects the story and quality of the film in no way whatsoever. Grow up.

    I will grant that Daniel Craig is a good actor and he plays his role as James Bond well. You may well find it ridiculous that we Bond purists are so petty, but the fact is, James Bond has dark hair. This is how he was written. Perhaps if Daniel Craig was willing to dye his hair dark brown/black for his Bond films, I wouldn't be so up in arms about it. I enjoy the Craig films, and you're right, it does not affect the story or the quality of the film. But Daniel Craig doesn't look like James Bond.
    And your Pride and Prejudice argument is silly because that is not a character that molds with the times. In fact, she came from a story, time and place that is actually based its importance on race and background. James Bond in 2011 does not.

    James Bond doesn't change colour over time. He doesn't change sex over time. Granted, he may change his hair colour over time like anybody else. But a black man cannot be James Bond, because the character is built on the one that was initially designed by Ian Fleming. James Bond also came from a story, time and place too - he was born in Scotland to a Swiss mother and an English father. He was educated at Eton. He was in the Royal Navy, and achieved the rank of Commander. You cannot simply displace that with another background, because then that character would cease to be James Bond.

    I apologise if I sound harsh, but this is one thing that I feel extremely passionate about. Storylines for movies may change, but we cannot simply change the character. To do so would be the death of James Bond as we know it.
    "Watch the birdie, you bastard!"
  • AlessandraAlessandra Lake Garda, ItalyPosts: 633MI6 Agent
    edited December 2010
    Signed, sealed and delivered, Defiant 74205 (sorry I do not know your name).

    Also, the Pride and Prejudice comparison very well stands because it's about a literary character. Elizabeth Bennett is as much of a literary character as James Bond, she's been represented for 80 years and they could've picked MANY different looks in actresses to portray her. Instead, they never even changed her HAIR color throughout the years, so I don't see why another character who is precisely described in Fleming's novels would have to change either. Fleming said Bond is tall, DARK-haired and handsome. He's also white. Well Craig is not tall or imposing, he's blond and IMO not particularly handsome either. He certainly can hold his own as an actor, which is good, but I think he looks nothing like James Bond should look based on the features picked by the guy who created him. I like James Bond because he is James Bond, not because he is some random dude with none of the characteristics the original character has. The original character IS Bond. Bond isn't some random adaptation of said original character.

    Fleming did a job and created a specific character with specific features. Straying too far away from those means very simply not representing James Bond. You do a generic action movie, not a James Bond movie if that is the case. Pretty much the way I felt about both CR (as I said, boooring for me) and QoS (which I thought just wasn't good enough). And a black Bond is absolutely out of question in this sense, which isn't about open-mindedness at all, it is about making the character become something he absolutely isn't. He's a WASP, and that can't change, because it's a fundamental part of who he is. Part of his education, culture and way of behaving. It would be ridiculous to turn him into something he isn't.

    I would also note, that per previous posts, it's been stated by someone who is actually black that they would never want Bond to be black. This isn't about race at all. Or about being open-minded. It's about not overturning a character and turning him into someone he isn't and never has been.
    "Are we on coms?" (if you don't know where this is from... you've missed some really good stuff! :D)
  • thesecretagentthesecretagent CornwallPosts: 2,151MI6 Agent
    Alessandra wrote:
    What the hell is WASP? Please, I'm being serious...

    White Anglo Saxon Protestant. It's used in the US in particular... :D For powerful/wealthy white people of English descent usually.

    Ah, another demographic of ethniticity I fail to fall into... god bless these ethnic/religious divides... :))
    Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:

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  • JamesBondJuniorJamesBondJunior Posts: 67MI6 Agent
    Your argument, Defiant, is that you can't change the character. But they already have. As soon as YOLT abandoned most of the plot of the book and Roger Moore appeared, the films became completely independent of the novel's. The Bond film series has established a loose continuity when re-casting Bond. They have established that he and his stories have little to do with Fleming's vision and ARE MADE to fit the changing times.

    God bless Fleming because he created the source material for the character I love. The first draft. But I fell in love with the cinematic James Bond that is still evolving today. As soon as these books became films and a large franchise, Fleming's vision could be interpreted any way the producers see fit. What I think you are avoiding is that the cinematic Bond is a very different and more popular character than Fleming's original James Bond. Fleming's Bond wouldn't do many of things that we've seen in the films.

    Someone please tell me how changing THE CINEMATIC Bond's physical characteristics would change the story in any way. The Bond who changes height, looks, attitude, accent and time period with each new film. Please enlighten me. Changing his gender is obvious and something we all know will never happen. Some of you all seem to think changing Bond's color or build will lead to Bond ceasing to be Bond. Will he still work for M16? Yes. Can he say most if not all of the dialogue the past Bond actors could? Yes. Could he still be a believable hero? Yes. I think what defines the character to most people are these things and not how Ian Fleming described him upon his creation, before anyone knew there would be a 50 year old film and book franchise that far exceeds Fleming's vision and collection of stories.

    I get that to some Craig shouldn't be Bond because he doesn't look like the man who created him. But Fleming was impressed with the Scottish Sean Connery and actually add Scottish blood to the character in tribute. Fleming is dead, so we can not worry about every little grievance he would have, especially when he seemed to understand how cinema would change his vision. I personally believe that if Fleming is aware of what's happening to his films, he wouldn't care about Craig having blond hair and thick frame, as long as the films are good and Bond's legacy continues to grow. Times change and if Fleming were still alive or a modern writer I think that this whole argument about race and HAIR COLOR OF ALL THINGS would be silly to him. -{
  • AlessandraAlessandra Lake Garda, ItalyPosts: 633MI6 Agent
    What you seem to not be considering from our messages, James, is that it's not enough for the character to vaguely resemble the original creation. Bond is the character Fleming created and he should look and talk like HE created him. It's nobody else's character, just his. And there is absolutely NO good reason whatsoever to change it. That is the original and that's how it should be. Bond is tall, dark and handsome. So the actor portraying him should look tall, dark and handsome. Not blonde, not red-haired not black. That's what Bond is and HOW the character looks like is a fundamental part of writing a character just as much as what the character does. It's called being faithful to the story. If you want to make all those changes, then don't do Bond. Do another agent who can have the color of skin, hair and the social rank that you please.

    It's like going around in circles here. There is NO good reason whatsoever to change ANYTHING in Bond's aspect. Of course his face will change because the actors need to change as they age or as they pursue other project. But the physical as well as personality characteristics should ALWAYS remain the same. That's what the character is. And nobody has a right to change any of that. You clearly have never written anything? Because I can assure you, a writer ponders VERY carefully how to make a character look. Hair color included. And no, I don't think Fleming would find it "silly" at all. (also please stop dismissing others' ideas and calling them "silly". Disagree and avoid that type of comment please? It's offensive).

    Fleming, like any other writer, would find it incredibly offensive that someone thought they were entitled to CHANGE anything in the character that HE created without having any right to do so and for absolutely no good reason whatsoever. Why do you want to change Bond? For what reason? There's no good reason whatsoever to change anything in the character and more than that, NOBODY is entitled to do it because this is Fleming's character. The only one who was entitled to make changes to the character was him, and nobody else.
    "Are we on coms?" (if you don't know where this is from... you've missed some really good stuff! :D)
  • thesecretagentthesecretagent CornwallPosts: 2,151MI6 Agent
    Just to throw a thought into the mix - Shakespeare wrote Hamlet and I would say that tens of thousands of actors have played him in theatres around the world for 400 years. Faithfully blond, portraying the Danish prince. I have seen it several times myself. Except one of the best performancesI witnessed was by a young black actor, in an all white cast. Both the play and the actor were brilliant. It's all down to the performance. I'd rather watch Densil Washington as James Bond, than Steven Seagal...
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  • JamesBondJuniorJamesBondJunior Posts: 67MI6 Agent
    Just to throw a thought into the mix - Shakespeare wrote Hamlet and I would say that tens of thousands of actors have played him in theatres around the world for 400 years. Faithfully blond, portraying the Danish prince. I have seen it several times myself. Except one of the best performancesI witnessed was by a young black actor, in an all white cast. Both the play and the actor were brilliant. It's all down to the performance. I'd rather watch Densil Washington as James Bond, than Steven Seagal...

    I think we're on the same page here, Secret. I think that James Bond (especially the film character) is such a staple AND has been played by so many different men already (only 7 actors in) that it would be logical and cool to have black actors put in the running when they cast from now on. I think it could have a great impact on the series. The series has moved away from Fleming's version over the years because it has to. Some elements just don't fit now like the Cold War plots, social graces and style of storytelling. All we can do is build on Fleming's tales and hopefully the series will continue to prosper. Preserving as much of Fleming's vision is important and respectful, but after time, skin color means little. I think casting a black actor before say 2005 wouldn't have worked. But I think we're at a point in human history where the majority would approve. I guess not on this forum 8-)
  • DEFIANT 74205DEFIANT 74205 Perth, AustraliaPosts: 1,881MI6 Agent
    Your argument, Defiant, is that you can't change the character. But they already have. As soon as YOLT abandoned most of the plot of the book and Roger Moore appeared, the films became completely independent of the novel's. The Bond film series has established a loose continuity when re-casting Bond. They have established that he and his stories have little to do with Fleming's vision and ARE MADE to fit the changing times.

    Yes, there have been six actors to play Bond so far, and only one of them has been blond. But they all have one thing in common: They're all WASPs. That is the sort of character that Bond is, you cannot cast anyone to play Bond, he has to fit the description, even loosely. Granted, none of the Bond actors look alike, but they are all tall, dark (hair, not skin) and handsome. You don't cast a black man to play James Bond any more than you would to cast a woman. It isn't progess, it's blasphemy. As far as the character of James Bond is concerned, everything written by Ian Fleming is gospel, and that's the way it should be.
    God bless Fleming because he created the source material for the character I love. The first draft. But I fell in love with the cinematic James Bond that is still evolving today. As soon as these books became films and a large franchise, Fleming's vision could be interpreted any way the producers see fit. What I think you are avoiding is that the cinematic Bond is a very different and more popular character than Fleming's original James Bond. Fleming's Bond wouldn't do many of things that we've seen in the films.

    Does that make it right? Does the fact that the cinematic Bond character has changed somewhat over time, make it any more right? The character may have changed a little, but it has stayed within the framework of someone who is a WASP, with (mostly) dark hair (Daniel Craig should dye his hair for his next Bond appearance!). Working for the MI6 and carrying a Double-O number is only his job description, it doesn't define his character. It is illogical to say that anyone who plays a character that works for the MI6 with a Double-O number can be James Bond, because that's not all there is to the Bond character.
    Someone please tell me how changing THE CINEMATIC Bond's physical characteristics would change the story in any way. The Bond who changes height, looks, attitude, accent and time period with each new film. Please enlighten me. Changing his gender is obvious and something we all know will never happen. Some of you all seem to think changing Bond's color or build will lead to Bond ceasing to be Bond. Will he still work for M16? Yes. Can he say most if not all of the dialogue the past Bond actors could? Yes. Could he still be a believable hero? Yes. I think what defines the character to most people are these things and not how Ian Fleming described him upon his creation, before anyone knew there would be a 50 year old film and book franchise that far exceeds Fleming's vision and collection of stories.

    Why, then, do you say that "gender is obvious and something we all know will never happen", but yet when it comes to race, you seem adamant that it will happen? After all, isn't equal opportunity all in the name of progress?

    You do not hire a woman to play a male character any more than you would hire a black man to play a white man's character. The formula for making a good film, and the formula for making a good Bond film are not the same. You can have a great movie but a crap Bond movie at the same time. A good Bond movie has to be "Bondian" in nature, in story, in every aspect. It has to follow Fleming's concept or it will not work. Not every Bond movie that has been made is a success. You argue that Bond has changed over time, but does that mean the series has succeeded time and time again whenever there was a change? Look at Die Another Day as an example - there was far, far more special effects and gadgets used than there had been in previous Bond films. It was a major change from its predecessors. It turned out to be one of the worst Bond films ever made. Then look at From Russia With Love - the plot, the characters etc were very closely aligned (albeit not exactly) to the novel, and there was minimal gadgets (just Bond's briefcase), and that was arguably the best Bond film ever made. Change does not always equal progress, and certainly does not always equal success. You're arguing that change is necessary to keep the Bond character interesting, but quite frankly, that's a load of rubbish. The storylines may change, but the character does not.
    I get that to some Craig shouldn't be Bond because he doesn't look like the man who created him. But Fleming was impressed with the Scottish Sean Connery and actually add Scottish blood to the character in tribute. Fleming is dead, so we can not worry about every little grievance he would have, especially when he seemed to understand how cinema would change his vision. I personally believe that if Fleming is aware of what's happening to his films, he wouldn't care about Craig having blond hair and thick frame, as long as the films are good and Bond's legacy continues to grow. Times change and if Fleming were still alive or a modern writer I think that this whole argument about race and HAIR COLOR OF ALL THINGS would be silly to him. -{

    You're right, before Craig's appointment to the position I was adamant that he shouldn't have been Bond. His performances so far have made me eat my words. But I still stand by my view that he doesn't look anything like Bond, and yet he refuses to do something about it. As for writing a Scottish ancestry into Bond, Fleming never mentioned Bond's ancestry before, so he hasn't contradicted himself in that aspect. Fleming introduced an aspect of the character he created - that is something, as the creator of the character, is entitled to do. The producers, the fans etc don't own the character and are not free to change it as they please. I have no problem with Fleming writing Scottish ancestry into Bond. Like I said before, when it comes to the character, everything that Fleming writes is gospel. There's a reason why I haven't read any Bond novel not written by Fleming, nor do I intend to do so.

    This forum is a representation of the views of a select group of Bond fans. I'm not the only one who thinks that the character should not change skin colour any more than he should become a she. This isn't about being closed minded, it's about preserving the essence of the character and the sanctity of Fleming's work. Looks like you're outnumbered ...
    "Watch the birdie, you bastard!"
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    If I may chime in again, I think you make some valid points, and although I agree with those who think it would not be a good idea to have a Black actor play Bond, perhaps my reasons are not quite the same as those expressed by some others. When I commented earlier I was commenting on the "cinematic" Bond, and how it would be jarring after all of these years of Bond being a WASP, to suddenly see a Black Bond. Perhaps that would have less impact on younger, more recent fans, but I have been there since Dr. No, so if I see a Black Bond I am no longer looking at the character I have followed for so many years. However, I must say that my concerns don't have that much to do with the fact that the character has strayed from the Bond that Ian Fleming originally conceived. For example, it doesn't bother me very much that the latest Bond is blonde, although admittedly it has taken me a bit of time to get used to that. I disagree with those who say that you cannot change ANY aspect of Fleming's character and still have James Bond, but to me changing his race is nearly as fundamental as changing his gender, and I just don't think it would be Bond anymore if the producers decided to go that route. I think your example about Hamlet is a little off point since that character only appeared in a single story. The cinematic Bond has been on view in more than 20 films for a period of nearly 50 years, and the Bond that has become indelibly etched in everyone's mind VISUALLY is a white male. One last point - instead of a "Black James Bond", which in mind connotes a Black actor portraying a Black version of a white character, I would prefer to see the creation of an iconic Black character who could appear in a series of films as entertaining, popular and enduring as the Bond series. For example, I think the three "Shaft" movies were on that path, but unfortunately they didn't continue. The Shaft reboot or remake or whatever it was with Sam Jackson was a bust as far as I'm concerned because it didn't really feel like a Shaft movie at all. Just imagine, though, if we had a dynamic Black character that could come back in film after film facing new adventures, and who would be a force in flims for so long that talented Black actors would, over the ensuing years, vie to take over the role as each actor before him steps down. I think that would be great, and maybe some day fans would argue about whether a White actor should be tapped to play that character. I suspect there would be many folks of all races who would probaly say that having a White actor (or a woman) play that role takes us too far astray from the essence of the original character. Just my two cents (well....a bit more than two cents, but you all know what I mean!)
    Just to throw a thought into the mix - Shakespeare wrote Hamlet and I would say that tens of thousands of actors have played him in theatres around the world for 400 years. Faithfully blond, portraying the Danish prince. I have seen it several times myself. Except one of the best performancesI witnessed was by a young black actor, in an all white cast. Both the play and the actor were brilliant. It's all down to the performance. I'd rather watch Densil Washington as James Bond, than Steven Seagal...

    I think we're on the same page here, Secret. I think that James Bond (especially the film character) is such a staple AND has been played by so many different men already (only 7 actors in) that it would be logical and cool to have black actors put in the running when they cast from now on. I think it could have a great impact on the series. The series has moved away from Fleming's version over the years because it has to. Some elements just don't fit now like the Cold War plots, social graces and style of storytelling. All we can do is build on Fleming's tales and hopefully the series will continue to prosper. Preserving as much of Fleming's vision is important and respectful, but after time, skin color means little. I think casting a black actor before say 2005 wouldn't have worked. But I think we're at a point in human history where the majority would approve. I guess not on this forum 8-)
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
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