Has being a Bond fan made you a supporter of extra-judicial killing?
Silhouette Man
The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,686MI6 Agent
Full title: Has being a Bond fan made you a supporter of extra-judicial killing/state-sponsored assassination?
I've been thinking about this a lot of late so I thought I would start a thread on it to gauge the views of other Bond fans. I realise that the subject matter is a little bit controversial. The thread is not meant to invoke controversy, however. Let me say that from the get-go.
What I want to know is does your being a literary/cinematic James Bond fan make you more in favour of state-sponsored assassination (also referred to as extra-judicial killing) by spies/secret agents/special forces etc. against certain individuals (a recent example in the Navy SEALS assassination of Osama bin Laden in May 2011). President George W. Bush wanted the CIA agents to have a "licence to kill" in the hunt for Osama bin Laden after the Al-Queada September 11th terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center Twin Towers, the Pentagon and the attempt to crash into the White House:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/22/afghanistan.terrorism6
Obviously, Ian Fleming came up with the idea of the "licence to kill in the line of duty" first and no doubt based it on his wartime experiences as Assistant to the Director of Naval Intelligence for the duration of World War II and in particular on his 'Red Indians' in the 30 Assault Unit as well as with the Special Operations Executive (SOE). Ian Fleming himself famously suggested several ways that the CIA might assassinate Fidel Castro (including making his beard fall out and giving him explosive cigars).
There were several plots to kill Hitler during World War II and the SOE trained the two assassins who killed Reinhard Heydrich in Prague in the then Czechoslovakia (but which had the terrible consequence of the vengeful Nazis obliterating the Czech town of Lidice and everybody and everything in it).
On the other (anti-Western) side of the coin, during the Cold War the Soviets of course murdered defectors and traitors and we see this happening more recently in the cases of the Bulgarian dissident writer Georgi Markov in September 1978 in London with a pellet containing the toxin ricin fired from an umbrella and Alexander Litvinenko in November 2006 with the radioactive poison Polonium 210, only to be found in Russian scientific labs. SMERSH was of course a Soviet liquidation organ of terror during World War II and it found its equivalents in the NKVD and the KGB (and perhaps even the FSB).
So, are we as Bond fans in favour of state assassination by the UK, the US or their allies (which is of course against international and state law which forbids assassination as a state policy) or are we opposed to it? Is it better for it to remain in James Bond's fictional world or should it encroach into the real world that we, as Bond fans, inhabit?
Either way, I'd love top hear your views as I'm greatly interested in this as a topic of discussion.
Personally, I'm in favour of a controlled level of state assassination such as in the cases of Hitler or more recently Osama bin Laden but that said I of course realise there are inherent dangers if this evil power is abused by a government or intelligence chiefs. I'm against the use of the death penalty, however, as I see that as a separate matter and anyway too many innocents have lost their lives in the past.
I hope that we can all have a civil discussion about this, as I feel it is important.
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I've been thinking about this a lot of late so I thought I would start a thread on it to gauge the views of other Bond fans. I realise that the subject matter is a little bit controversial. The thread is not meant to invoke controversy, however. Let me say that from the get-go.
What I want to know is does your being a literary/cinematic James Bond fan make you more in favour of state-sponsored assassination (also referred to as extra-judicial killing) by spies/secret agents/special forces etc. against certain individuals (a recent example in the Navy SEALS assassination of Osama bin Laden in May 2011). President George W. Bush wanted the CIA agents to have a "licence to kill" in the hunt for Osama bin Laden after the Al-Queada September 11th terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center Twin Towers, the Pentagon and the attempt to crash into the White House:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/22/afghanistan.terrorism6
Obviously, Ian Fleming came up with the idea of the "licence to kill in the line of duty" first and no doubt based it on his wartime experiences as Assistant to the Director of Naval Intelligence for the duration of World War II and in particular on his 'Red Indians' in the 30 Assault Unit as well as with the Special Operations Executive (SOE). Ian Fleming himself famously suggested several ways that the CIA might assassinate Fidel Castro (including making his beard fall out and giving him explosive cigars).
There were several plots to kill Hitler during World War II and the SOE trained the two assassins who killed Reinhard Heydrich in Prague in the then Czechoslovakia (but which had the terrible consequence of the vengeful Nazis obliterating the Czech town of Lidice and everybody and everything in it).
On the other (anti-Western) side of the coin, during the Cold War the Soviets of course murdered defectors and traitors and we see this happening more recently in the cases of the Bulgarian dissident writer Georgi Markov in September 1978 in London with a pellet containing the toxin ricin fired from an umbrella and Alexander Litvinenko in November 2006 with the radioactive poison Polonium 210, only to be found in Russian scientific labs. SMERSH was of course a Soviet liquidation organ of terror during World War II and it found its equivalents in the NKVD and the KGB (and perhaps even the FSB).
So, are we as Bond fans in favour of state assassination by the UK, the US or their allies (which is of course against international and state law which forbids assassination as a state policy) or are we opposed to it? Is it better for it to remain in James Bond's fictional world or should it encroach into the real world that we, as Bond fans, inhabit?
Either way, I'd love top hear your views as I'm greatly interested in this as a topic of discussion.
Personally, I'm in favour of a controlled level of state assassination such as in the cases of Hitler or more recently Osama bin Laden but that said I of course realise there are inherent dangers if this evil power is abused by a government or intelligence chiefs. I'm against the use of the death penalty, however, as I see that as a separate matter and anyway too many innocents have lost their lives in the past.
I hope that we can all have a civil discussion about this, as I feel it is important.
-{ "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Comments
Of whatever political persuasion or nationality, and if it saves lives that can only be a
Good thing. Although I do feel the politicians who order these sections should be held to
Account ( not the solders in evolved, as they're simply carrying out orders ) if it turns
Out to be false information and some innocent is killed.
So basically if they can prove to some extent the involvement of a person, and it
Would stop an attack and save lives then, yes I would sanction some extra-judicial
Killing.
Although any action would have to be approved by some security board, who would
Have to be accountable to the government, as we can't have it escalating to killing
Political opponents or political trouble makers.
1) I am not opposed to extra-judicial assassination as a concept, especially with the lines of what constitutes a "war" becoming more and more blurred. That said, there need to be checks and balances on when and how such measures are applied.
2) My Bond fandom has no impact on my view on #1.
3) FWIW, I am also against the death penalty as a punishment for crime, at least within the domestic process of jurisprudence of a given country.
I'm of the opinion that as long as they are carried out correctly and for the right reasons then I have no issues with it.
After all terrorists have no qualms with killing for their cause.
(Much as I have no desire to leap from a helicopter or fire a PPK, despite very much enjoying watching 007 do them regularly.)
As I just said above, they are private views.
I personally believe that targeted assassinations can be justified in some circumstances and are less harmful than a full-scale conflict.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
Just kidding.
Bond films/Fleming books have had no influence on my opinions at all, they are just thoroughly good entertainment and I enjoy the slice of 1950s/60s life that the books provide. That said, I agree with most of what others have already said. I am not opposed to carefully planned and cautiously approved operations against certain targets but the individuals who are tasked with the operations should never be held accountable as long as they stick to their orders.
but where will it stop ,look theres a Irish bloke over there taking photos ,bang bang your dead ,Oh sorry Mrs Thunderpussy on behalf of her majestys govt ,we are very sorry ect ect ,look at the balls up (in hind sight ) of the Jean Charles de Menezez operation ,we still don't know wether he was or wasn't . As bad as it is ,we need to have a rule of law , or all hell will break out.
question would you trust George Bush to decide who too kill , I woudnt trust the Bushes to put the cat out .
Actions are accountable, then sad thought it is. If it stops a bombing then OK.
In my opinion extra-judicial killings can be justified, but they must be used very sparingly and the pitfalls are many and horrible.
Also, we like it when the US are doing it. But think of some of the assasinations done by countries like Russia (the dangers of eating sushi
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4NRJoCNHIs
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I want to note the fact that I have amended the paragraph in the OP on the role of the Russians in this issue in order to better state exactly what I meant - merely looking at what went on in the Soviet Union/the Federation of Russia as "the other side of the coin" (i.e. not as an example of what we do in the West).
- Chiun, Master of Sinanju
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Killing people with a drone is wrong, but killing people with bullets and grenades is okay?
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
How did you know?
Ah, so that's your secret!
The point is that assasintions by drone causes a lot of collateral casualties. Also, when a Pakistani boy grows up fearing American drones, seeing friends and family killed by them, who will he side with - America or the people blowing up western buildings and passenger planes?
And since others have mentioned it as an example of a "good" assassination, I consider the negative consequences from the Osama bin Laden raid to outweigh the positives. The CIA's exploitation of medical personnel and relief workers has led to the group Save the Children being booted out of Pakistan, people leading vaccination campaigns to be murdered, and a massive upswing in child polio cases.
National Geographic (among other outlets) has reported in this extensively.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/150225-polio-pakistan-vaccination-virus-health/
Considering that many analysts believe bin Laden's assassination had little or no positive impact on U.S. security or anti-terrorism effort, one must ask if America's quest for revenge was worth the lives and health of those in Pakistan. I say no.
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