The 80s (and beyond) Bond Rival: Jack Ryan

BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,060Chief of Staff
JACK RYAN

The creation of Tom Clancy (1947-2013), Jack Ryan first appeared in the novel The Hunt For Red October in 1984 and is still being written about today, albeit by other writers (the exact point at which Clancy began using ghostwriters is debatable).

Ryan isn’t much like James Bond, and deliberately so. He’s a happily married family man who rarely uses a gun and does much of his work in the corridors of power being actively involved in politics. Still, he can take care of himself in a fight and leap in and out of helicopters if necessary- at least in his younger years, for he ages in an approximation of real time which is another difference from Our Man. These days, his son Jack Jr does the secret agent stuff while Jack Sr sits in the White House.

The Ryan stories are far more overtly political in their plots and backgrounds than most of Bond’s adventures, often involving expies of real-life political figures (eg Osama bin Laden, Vladimir Putin). These plots are usually simplified or greatly altered for the films.

AA_OLD_MAN.jpg

The first actor to play Ryan was Alec Baldwin in The Hunt For Red October in 1990 although arguably he was greatly overshadowed by his co-star, an Oscar-winning Scottish actor not unknown to anyone liable to be reading this. The film was a success and it looked likely that Baldwin would return for the next film in the series. At this point, stories differ as to how Baldwin lost the part (some say he asked for too much money*; some say he went off on another project at an awkward time) and Harrison Ford replaced him for the next two films Patriot Games (with Sean Bean as the villain) and Clear And Present Danger.

AA_OLD_MAN_2.jpg (The actor Ford is talking to is Samuel L. Jackson)

Again, both were financial successes but it took eight years to get around to the next The Sum Of All Fears. Ford declined to return and Ryan was played by Ben Affleck. Again this was a success, but it took a further twelve years (!) before the next film Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit starring Chris Pine as Ryan was made.

AA_OLD_MAN_3.jpg

AA_OLD_MAN_4.jpg

Eight years between film 3 and 4... twelve years between films 4 and 5... makes you glad to be a Bond fan!

* One story is that Baldwin asked for an outrageous fee to play Ryan again, and the producer Mace Neufeld said "For that kind of money I could get Harrison Ford!"- so he did.

Comments

  • BarbaricBarbaric Cedar Grove, NJ, USAPosts: 19MI6 Agent
    Up until this point, I don't remember Alec Baldwin in the first movie. I only watched it because Sean Connery was in it. I guess that means that Alec's performance was adequate but forgettable.

    Patriot Games and Clear and Present Danger were my favorites, not necessarily because Harrison Ford played Ryan, but because I read the novels before the films came out and wanted to see what Holly Would do with them. I enjoyed them both.

    I didn't pay much attention to The Sum of All Fears. I watched it once, read the book and promptly forgot about it. I read some commentary about the sensitivity of Americans at the time delayed the release of Sum of All Fears due to the terrorist bombings in the opening scenes but that would have only meant months.

    Also, I must have been living under a rock, but I enjoyed Shadow Recruit and never knew it was a Clancy book.
    Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog is too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,060Chief of Staff
    Barbaric wrote:
    I enjoyed Shadow Recruit and never knew it was a Clancy book.

    Ah, I didn't make that clear: it isn't. It's an original story based on Clancy's characters.
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,420Chief of Staff
    I've read all of Clancy's novels - and about three of his books using ghost writers...Clancy's novels are brilliant...I love the complexity and how he weaves the intertwining stories together...how the characters grow throughout each subsequent novel...they are just an absorbing read...
    YNWA 97
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,061MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:
    they are just an absorbing read...
    But do you visualize Indy?
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I had read that Baldwin went off to do " A streetcar named desire " on Broadway
    and Wasn't available for the next film ?
    Apart from one ;) I haven't read any Tom Clancy, but it was full of details and
    a very absorbing story. I have seen all the films loved the hunt for red October
    ( although oddly enough the October revolution, took place in November) :D
    Along with the Harrison Ford's, Ben Affleck's film was OK but the last movie with
    Chris Pine was a bit of a disappointment.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,420Chief of Staff
    chrisisall wrote:
    Sir Miles wrote:
    they are just an absorbing read...
    But do you visualize Indy?

    Not Indy, no...I read most of them before the films so didn't visualize anybody really...
    YNWA 97
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    I've never read Clancy but enjoyed the 1st 3 Jack Ryan movies!

    I've appreciated Affleck as Ryan but his movies could not excite me anymore.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    One of the plus points for the Jack Ryan films, is the
    superb cast they got for each film. Apart from Ben Affleck
    Obviously. :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • GoldHildingGoldHilding WinnipegPosts: 58MI6 Agent
    I think Baldwin and Ford nailed what the character was supposed to be. His background makes him just as competent in an action scene as Bond, but he's more comfortable behind a desk, and is often timid and nervous when speaking his mind. Affleck played him the exact opposite. Liev Shreiber played the John Clark character in Sum of All Fears, and I always thought he would have been a better Jack Ryan than Affleck.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,060Chief of Staff
    One of the plus points for the Jack Ryan films, is the
    superb cast they got for each film. Apart from Ben Affleck
    Obviously. :D

    Agreed, the Ryan films have been filled with top stars/excellent actors (Connery, Ford, Morgan Freeman, Willem Dafoe, Samuel L. Jackson, Sam Neill, Kevin Costner... the list goes on) and of course Ben Affleck as well, as you say.
    In this they're similar to the Batman movies, which are also star-heavy, and differ from the Bonds. I can't recall the exact quote, but Broccoli or Wilson said that they prefer things their way- ie, only occasional use of established stars outside of their Bond actor (who has usually become a top star through playing Bond anyway).
  • UnderwaterBattle007UnderwaterBattle007 Posts: 284MI6 Agent
    Barbaric wrote:
    Up until this point, I don't remember Alec Baldwin in the first movie. I only watched it because Sean Connery was in it. I guess that means that Alec's performance was adequate but forgettable.

    Patriot Games and Clear and Present Danger were my favorites, not necessarily because Harrison Ford played Ryan, but because I read the novels before the films came out and wanted to see what Holly Would do with them. I enjoyed them both.

    I didn't pay much attention to The Sum of All Fears. I watched it once, read the book and promptly forgot about it. I read some commentary about the sensitivity of Americans at the time delayed the release of Sum of All Fears due to the terrorist bombings in the opening scenes but that would have only meant months.

    Also, I must have been living under a rock, but I enjoyed Shadow Recruit and never knew it was a Clancy book.

    I really enjoyed the Hunt for red October although like yourself mainly because of the Connery connection.

    Peter Firth one of my favourite British actors (and who went on to star in the TV series Spooks as head of SIS) played a Russian Officer, only a small role as I think Connery kills him early on in the plot.

    I like the Jack Ryan films and novels although they get really deep in detail. In Patriot games there's what seems to be a whole chapter on why Concorde was smaller crossing the Atlantic one way as against the return journey, very technical.
    FRWl, CR, OHMSS, TSWLM, SF, GF, TLD, LTK, TND, FYEO, OP,TWINE, GE, LALD, TB, SPECTRE, DN, YOLT, TMWTGG, QOS, MR, DAF, DAD, AVTAK, NTTD.

    "Do you expect me to talk? "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"
  • stagstag Posts: 2,083MI6 Agent
    I've never seen these films.
  • stagstag Posts: 2,083MI6 Agent
    It appears 'Our Man Flint' has been omitted from the Bond Rivals Threads?
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    stag wrote:
    It appears 'Our Man Flint' has been omitted from the Bond Rivals Threads?

    I could easily name at least 10 other rivals for Bond from the 1960s. Perhaps Barbel will get around to them.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • sniperUKsniperUK UlsterPosts: 594MI6 Agent
    None of the films were as good as the books, Clear And Present Danger though good should have been epic, the end of the movie especially instead of the pathetic Huey if it had the books spec ops assault with the PAVELOW and the landing on the Coast Guard cutter, a big one as opposed to the 80 ft one used at the start of the movie, in the middle of a hurricane and killing of Dan Murray was dumb as he is a fairly major character in all of the books and becomes head of the FBI.
    Sum of all Fears ,crap, changing the middle eastern terrorists to Nazis, come on :s
    Shadow recruit , I watched it but can't remember a thing about it.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,060Chief of Staff
    Matt S wrote:
    stag wrote:
    It appears 'Our Man Flint' has been omitted from the Bond Rivals Threads?

    I could easily name at least 10 other rivals for Bond from the 1960s. Perhaps Barbel will get around to them.

    I'm not doing these in any particular order, just as the fancy takes me, and only on those characters I know a bit about and wouldn't have to research.
  • BodieBodie Posts: 211MI6 Agent
    I enjoyed the earlier Jack Ryan novels. Some of the later ones go to long and detailed. I got 200 pages into one and by that stage Clancy was still establishing the characters and leading up to what was going to start the story from Ryan's perpective.

    I read somewhere that Kevin Costner was the original choice to play Ryan in The Hunt For Red October but he turned it down to do Dances With Wolves. Costner would have been perfect for Ryan as Ryan is basically an all American overgrown boy scout.

    Baldwin did a good job in THFRO and if he got blown away by Connery what actor wouldn't. What chance would any actor have against someone playing a Russian submarine captain with a great wig and a Scottish Accent.

    Harrison Ford was great as Ryan. No-one does integrity like Harrison Ford. Ford got Ryan just right. An everyman who is basically an analysis pushed against his will by circumstances into situations where he has to be an action man.

    Ben Affleck and Chris Pine never managed to convey this. They looked to comfortable with the fact they were getting into fights and carrying out missions.

    TSOAF suffered from the fact it was a reboot. It didn't need to be. They should have had a new actor continueing the part and stuck closer to the novel.

    Its hard to say what went wrong with Jack Ryan Shadow Recruit. It was a decent enough movie but it just didn't quite do it. I read an interview with Chris Pine where he admitted that they didn't get it right and it wasn't good enough to re-start the franchise.

    No doubt there will be another Jack Ryan reboot sometime in the future with a different leading man.
  • Golrush007Golrush007 South AfricaPosts: 3,418Quartermasters
    I decided to have a look if there were any threads discussing Jack Ryan on this forum, because I've just finished reading Patriot Games (my first Clancy novel) and I throughly enjoyed it.

    I've seen most of the Jack Ryan films, so I have some background to the characters and the stories. One of the main things that has caused me to put off reading a Clancy novel for a long time is the length of his books. Typically I read books in 80,000-100,000 words range, such as the Bonds and tend not to stray far beyond this comfort zone. Most of Clancy's books are more than double that length. Nonetheless, I decided to give Patriot Games a try, and I found it to be a gripping read and I read it quite quickly. It certainly has given me the enthusiasm to pursue the Jack Ryan series further, and in a recent tour of second-hand bookshops in the Cape Town area, I have found copies of everything from The Hunt For Red October to Executive Orders.

    I've just started The Hunt For Red October, which I am very excited about. I hope I will enjoy it as much as I enjoyed Patriot Games.
  • MilleniumForceMilleniumForce LondonPosts: 1,214MI6 Agent
    I have only seen Patriot Games and Shadow Recruit. I preferred Patriot Games a lot more, that felt like a proper spy thriller. Shadow Recruit feels like a rather generic action flick, I only remember the action climax and that's it.

    However, looking at the film's alone, they're no competition to Bond. There nowhere near iconic, I'm sure of you asked an average person "Who has played Bond?", they'd go Connery, Moore, Brosnan and Craig. Ask that same person about Jack Ryan, and you'd be lucky if they said Harrison Ford.

    It just seems like to me every film (except for CAPD) is a reboot. Patriot Games is like a soft reboot, then Sum of All Fears is a soft reboot, and then Shadow Recruit is of course a full on reboot.
    1.LTK 2.AVTAK 3.OP 4.FYEO 5.TND 6.LALD 7.GE 8.GF 9.TSWLM 10.SPECTRE 11.SF 12.MR 13.YOLT 14.TLD 15.CR (06) 16.TMWTGG 17.TB 18.FRWL 19.TWINE 20.OHMSS 21.DAF 22.DAD 23.QoS 24.NSNA 25.DN 26.CR (67)
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,651MI6 Agent
    I watched Hunt for the Red October in the theater and at the time never gave thought to reading the novels. Then my friend's girlfriend told me how cool they were and being a Bond fan, I told her the kind of Cold War stories I liked and she recommended Cardinal of the Kremlin and I got hooked! I've read all the Jack Ryan/John Clark novels but stopped short of Teeth of the Tiger, though I had bought a copy; I thought the idea of Jack Jr. taking over the action jumped the shark.

    My random thoughts: Having read Debt of Honor, 9/11 shocked me. When I first read Hunt for the Red October, I couldn't help but think how perfect Alec Baldwin was for the role, in terms of appearance and age, particularly the level of innocence he had at that age of Jack Ryan, which was 31, I believe. I know that Tom Clancy wasn't happy with the casting of Harrison Ford and I agree though I thought his installments were very entertaining.

    I found it interesting how Tom Clancy imbued on his main character a kind of wish fulfillment, with a working class background though one who was upwardly mobile, whose inroad was military service and graduation from Annapolis, a stint on Wall Street (to explain for his comfortable, residual income), a doctorate (to match his physician wife) and scholarly career in history that would lead him to becoming an analyst in the CIA; a similar character is Robert Ludlum's Jason Bourne, who was also from the intelligentsia class (like Jack Ryan) a professor and "connected" in the American intelligence hierarchy before he volunteered to become a lowly assassin. Though becoming President was the book series jumping the shark (not realizing that Teeth of the Tiger would come along!), it was cool and it's interesting how Kiefer Sutherland's new TV series, Designated Survivor, was practically ripped off from Tom Clancy.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,060Chief of Staff
    I could see Clancy's influence on a certain other Kiefer Sutherland TV series as well!
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,651MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    I could see Clancy's influence on a certain other Kiefer Sutherland TV series as well!

    Ahh, the other fictional agent with the initials, "JB" and not Jason Bourne!
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,060Chief of Staff
    :D Yes, that's the one!
  • walther p99walther p99 NJPosts: 3,416MI6 Agent
    Only seen bits of all the films except for Patriot Games and Clear and Present danger, The latter which I really enjoyed. Refreshing to see William Dafoe play a good guy for once. If you're ever in Annapolis you can retrace Ford's steps when he's attacked by the assassin right outside the gate in Patriot Games.
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