Possible Reception of Dalton's Third Film

IcePakIcePak Perth, Western AustraliaPosts: 170MI6 Agent
It took both Connery and Moore, the longest running actors to play Bond, 3 films before they were fully accepted in the role. Do you think if Dalton had done a third film, that the audience might have warmed to his more realistic portrayal of the character?

As much as I love Dalton's Flemingesque portrayal of 007, I feel this was not what audiences had come to expect from a Bond film. After the later Connery and Moore films, they expected a larger than life character, which was the antithesis of how Dalton played Bond. I feel that unless the film itself was something very special, it may very well have killed the franchise.
1. CR 2. OHMSS 3. GE 4. TLD 5. FRwL 6. TMWTGG 7. FYEO
8. OP 9. TSWLM 10. SF 11. TND 12. LtK 13. NTtD 14. GF
15. AVtaK 16. LaLD 17. TWiNE 18. MR 19. YOLT 20. DN 21. TB
22. SP 23. DAD 24. QoS 25. DaF
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Comments

  • James SuzukiJames Suzuki New ZealandPosts: 2,406MI6 Agent
    If Dalton was to do Goldeneye, as it was originally intended, I believe it would have been his best film. He definitely deserved a third movie, not just because he was a great bond, but because he wasn't formed yet.
    He hasn't had his equivalent to goldfinger or spy who loved me.
    “The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning. "
    -Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
  • MilleniumForceMilleniumForce LondonPosts: 1,214MI6 Agent
    As much as I love Dalton, I like Brosnan a tiny bit more - and I wouldn't want Dalton to do GE. If it was a different film, however, then yeah, I'm sure it would have been great.
    1.LTK 2.AVTAK 3.OP 4.FYEO 5.TND 6.LALD 7.GE 8.GF 9.TSWLM 10.SPECTRE 11.SF 12.MR 13.YOLT 14.TLD 15.CR (06) 16.TMWTGG 17.TB 18.FRWL 19.TWINE 20.OHMSS 21.DAF 22.DAD 23.QoS 24.NSNA 25.DN 26.CR (67)
  • stagstag Posts: 2,083MI6 Agent
    If Dalton was to do Goldeneye, as it was originally intended, I believe it would have been his best film. He definitely deserved a third movie, not just because he was a great bond, but because he wasn't formed yet.
    He hasn't had his equivalent to goldfinger or spy who loved me.

    Agreed.
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    Would have liked it if Dalton had the opportunity to do a 3rd film :) .... May be a '91/'92 release based on Fleming's books such as MR or CR or something like the recent Trigger Mortis
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I fully agree Dalton deserved a third outing as 007. {[]
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    If the stars aligned like they did for Goldfinger and TSWLM for the respective actors then yeah, a 3rd Bond Dalton film would've been awesome.

    But, if they did a film in the same vein as LTK then no. Great for fans, but not great for the general public. There are some great things about LTK - but there are some pretty bad things too - like the violence, the imbalance between dark/funny, the wardrobe and just the general cheap feel. Plus, Dalton's looks started to taper off...

    Of course this is in hindsight, but I think the EON films needed the 6 year break to re-tool and remind the public of what they were missing. 80s Bond, even with all of its changes in tone started being taken for granted by the general public (especially the US audiences).
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,061MI6 Agent
    Plus, Dalton's looks started to taper off...
    You must give me the name of your occularist.
    So I can avoid him. :))
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Dalton was the right guy at the wrong time. If Moore had given up Bond when he should have, the transition would have been smoother, and if the overrated Goldeneye had been made with him in, say, 1989, it would likely have been a better film. But imagine if instead Goldeneye had been made in 1983 with Dalton, and then followed by Licence to Kill (before Miami Vice did the same thing better for free on TV), and then followed by The Living Daylights in 1989? I think all three films would have seemed better.
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    Gassy Man wrote:
    Dalton was the right guy at the wrong time. If Moore had given up Bond when he should have, the transition would have been smoother, and if the overrated Goldeneye had been made with him in, say, 1989, it would likely have been a better film. But imagine if instead Goldeneye had been made in 1983 with Dalton, and then followed by Licence to Kill (before Miami Vice did the same thing better for free on TV), and then followed by The Living Daylights in 1989? I think all three films would have seemed better.

    Some intetesting points wrt the order of Bond films. ..... However, in '83, OP was released. I would rate OP >>>>> GE. So would not prefer it to scrapped as per your suggestion
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    am747 wrote:
    Gassy Man wrote:
    Dalton was the right guy at the wrong time. If Moore had given up Bond when he should have, the transition would have been smoother, and if the overrated Goldeneye had been made with him in, say, 1989, it would likely have been a better film. But imagine if instead Goldeneye had been made in 1983 with Dalton, and then followed by Licence to Kill (before Miami Vice did the same thing better for free on TV), and then followed by The Living Daylights in 1989? I think all three films would have seemed better.

    Some intetesting points wrt the order of Bond films. ..... However, in '83, OP was released. I would rate OP >>>>> GE. So would not prefer it to scrapped as per your suggestion
    I'm less enamored with OP than most people, but I would think the best arc for Dalton would have been For Your Eyes Only, Goldeneye, License to Kill, and The Living Daylights. He could have retired at that point and still turned the films over to Brosnan, after dominating the 80s.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    No!

    3_2_c_full.jpg
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • zaphod99zaphod99 Posts: 1,415MI6 Agent
    chrisisall wrote:
    Plus, Dalton's looks started to taper off...
    You must give me the name of your occularist.
    So I can avoid him. :))

    Few here can be more pro Tim than I am, but even if can see his looks and hair were starting to fade. I recall a TV interview mid period where he talks about doing a third and he mentions that he might need a rug if the wait is much longer. I agree with Grassy, Dalton was cast too late, he should have been Bond sooner.
    Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    IcePak wrote:
    It took both Connery and Moore, the longest running actors to play Bond, 3 films before they were fully accepted in the role.

    I disagree.

    Moore was pretty well known when he took over the role and he was accepted day one - with the exception of the Connery Diehards.
    Same with Brosnan and Craig - even though Craig was not that famous prior to CR.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    I'm less enamored with OP than most people, but I would think the best arc for Dalton would have been For Your Eyes Only, Goldeneye, License to Kill, and The Living Daylights. He could have retired at that point and still turned the films over to Brosnan, after dominating the 80s.

    Realistically, the films Dalton could hv done are AVTAK and GE (if not for delays and released earlier in '91 / '92) .... OP with its action and adventure theme could hv suited Dalton too with minor adjustments in the script

    W/o scrapping any Bond film, maintaining the order of their release and asduming that Dalton could hv taken over in '83 and took on SC in NASA, OP to GE (with minor changes ) could hv worked well for Dalton
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Dalton would have been 35 if he'd taken over for For Your Eyes Only, a film which would have lent itself not only to a younger man but to a harder edged Bond. It also would have tied Dalton back to the 60s. Dalton had the "look" of the mid-70s to late 80s -- lean, long face, long hair. The whole blowed-dry styling fit him, and he would have fit into the aesthetics of the day. If he'd done Goldeneye next, it would have cemented him as the "serious" Bond. License to Kill's violence would have made more sense, as the films would have intensified. Then, he could have gotten his shot at a more romantic adventure with The Living Daylights. The beauty is both Octopussy and A View to a Kill would not have had to have been made.
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    Gassy Man wrote:
    Dalton would have been 35 if he'd taken over for For Your Eyes Only, a film which would have lent itself not only to a younger man but to a harder edged Bond. It also would have tied Dalton back to the 60s. Dalton had the "look" of the mid-70s to late 80s -- lean, long face, long hair. The whole blowed-dry styling fit him, and he would have fit into the aesthetics of the day. If he'd done Goldeneye next, it would have cemented him as the "serious" Bond. License to Kill's violence would have made more sense, as the films would have intensified. Then, he could have gotten his shot at a more romantic adventure with The Living Daylights. The beauty is both Octopussy and A View to a Kill would not have had to have been made.

    It is a good hypothesis. All this would have been possible if Bond scripts were all placed on a buffet table and producers could pick and chose anything anytime. The facts are:

    a) Moore did a good job in FYEO
    b) GE script was probably not ready in '83
    c) There are no reasons to scrap OP and AVTAK so there is no beauty if they were not made. In fact I rate both of them higher than GE whose success also depended on it having a new Bond and releasing after 6 years. So if it would have released after FYEO who knows it might not have been that successful
    d) Dalton's phase is seen as the weakest when measured objectively

    There are two sides of a coin. Who knows if Dalton had come in '81, Bond may not have survived the 80s as the audiences of the time preferred Moore type of films

    {[]
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    edited December 2015
    The pertinent question is - if Dalton had done a 3rd film, would it have been as successful as SC and RM's 3rd films ?

    Since the release of TSWLM ($700M+ gross), the next film to be as successful as GF or TSWLM was SF (in terms of gross) .... This should answer the Q :)
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    It does require one to posit that all the scripts of the period were available. And I don't mind Moore or that Moore was in For Your Eyes Only -- it just feels like a younger man would have taken the story further. It's feel would be "right" for Dalton.

    But as regards Octopussy and A View to a Kill, they're both just weak entries to me, both derivations on Goldfinger, and not very good at all. Except for the films of the Brosnan era, they're the ones I rarely ever watch.

    Dalton's Bonds were to varying degrees financially successful, but they came too late. Audiences, in part, were disappointed that Brosnan wasn't Bond, and Dalton's debut five or ten years earlier would have fit the times more. I suspect he would have succeeded more had he come earlier rather than later, but that's something we will never know.
  • Charmed & DangerousCharmed & Dangerous Posts: 7,358MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:
    IcePak wrote:
    It took both Connery and Moore, the longest running actors to play Bond, 3 films before they were fully accepted in the role.

    I disagree.

    Moore was pretty well known when he took over the role and he was accepted day one - with the exception of the Connery Diehards.
    Same with Brosnan and Craig - even though Craig was not that famous prior to CR.

    +1. -{ and Dr No was phenomenally successful and cemented Connery in the role from the moment he appeared on screen.
    "How was your lamb?" "Skewered. One sympathises."
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    all these ifs and thens are pretty funny.

    All these speculations ignore the fact, that Dalton was not well accepted in the biggest market - the US and in other parts (like Germany).

    There is no way that UA would have let this go for another movie - remember that they wanted to have Dalton fired after his second movie - LTK.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • zaphod99zaphod99 Posts: 1,415MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:
    all these ifs and thens are pretty funny.

    All these speculations ignore the fact, that Dalton was not well accepted in the biggest market - the US and in other parts (like Germany).

    There is no way that UA would have let this go for another movie - remember that they wanted to have Dalton fired after his second movie - LTK.

    I think you may have an issue with the notion of conjecture ;) A lot of what goes on here is predicated on what ifs and maybe...those who engage do it because they find it fun. I do take your point that it seems that Dalton never sat well with UA which I agree would have most likely stymied him. Tim was well regarded by Cubby but ultimately the money would have won.However we can dream...
    Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    The funny part is that Timboys disregard the lack of acceptance which the main actor suffered and no matter when he'd started, UA would have ended him after 2 attempts.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    edited December 2015
    As for Dalton in FYEO and/or OP:

    Let's not forget that Eon had to rely on tradition, branding and trademarks to compete with Connery and NSNA.

    Would have been a desaster if EON would have been depending on a new and unknown actor like Dalton! Connery would have wiped the floor with young Timmy! :D

    Thank god, they had established Sir Roger in the role and he was the only one in the 80s who could compete Connery's return to the role back then. And he did! {[]
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • zaphod99zaphod99 Posts: 1,415MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:
    The funny part is that Timboys disregard the lack of acceptance which the main actor suffered and no matter when he'd started, UA would have ended him after 2 attempts.

    I'm probably a Timbboy, but think I am agreeing with you that Dalton did not resonate widely enough for longevity. The only divergence is that I think that it was a real shame, and that as a consequence we lost a potentially superb Bond too soon.
    Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    Yes, we've lost a crybaby - not too soon :D
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I too would be one of the cool kids " Tomboy" sadly the average
    Punter, couldn't see how good he was, and why should they. Not
    Being Bond connoisseurs, they couldn't see the power of the Daltonator.
    Sir Roger was a tough act to follow and the change of tone too strange
    for the unbelievers. Hence why after Dalton they went back to the Sir Roger
    Version of Bond with Pierce.
    Not until the second coming with Craig, did the stars Aline and the
    Prophecy fulfilled, did Dalton's version of Bond begin again, a Renaissance,
    a rebirth, and our progenitors can look to the heavens knowing that there is
    Peace and order due to Dalton's Tenure. ...... Something like that. ;)
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    Performance wise Dalton was brilliant -{
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    zaphod99 wrote:
    Higgins wrote:
    The funny part is that Timboys disregard the lack of acceptance which the main actor suffered and no matter when he'd started, UA would have ended him after 2 attempts.

    I'm probably a Timbboy, but think I am agreeing with you that Dalton did not resonate widely enough for longevity. The only divergence is that I think that it was a real shame, and that as a consequence we lost a potentially superb Bond too soon.
    Actually, The Living Daylights was reasonably well received, and it performed well at the box office. The follow up is what basically killed Dalton's tenure, as American audiences in particular did not respond favorably and probably in part because, by then, Miami Vice has already explored the same idea for five years. Dalton himself was a disappointment because he was not Brosnan.

    But consider, too, that Moore's hanging on for two or three more films helped to cement his tenure in the public's view of James Bond. If he hadn't done those three films, and Dalton had come along and well before Brosnan was considered, things could have turned out quite differently. Moore would have gone out on Moonraker, one of the silliest films, and Dalton would have started out fresh, younger and more in line with the expectations of the late 70s and early 80s. I think he could have handled the role well and not been burdened with so many expectations. And, as before, we wouldn't have had to suffer through Octopussy and A View to a Kill.
  • am747am747 Posts: 720MI6 Agent
    Gassy Man wrote:
    And, as before, we I wouldn't have had to suffer through Octopussy and A View to a Kill.

    Corrected the last sentence (unless you like to refer to yourself as we), as, IMO, OP, AVTAK, etc >>>>>>> GE

    And if you like to speculate, it can be said that GE did relatively well than some of the films that came before it mainly because it had a new Bond and it was released after 6 yrs. If it were released in '83 (like 2 yrs after FYEO) as you fantasize, it probably would have made less money that LTK ;)
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Maybe. I'm not a big fan of Goldeneye, which I find to be mostly unimpressive, but I think it got a bounce because Brosnan was in it, and he was the Bond that American audiences in particular had wanted all the way back to the 80s. We'll never know for sure either way. But seven Moore films, three pretty good, combined with the disappointment that Brosnan didn't get the role in 1987 certainly helped set Dalton up for failure. "We," by the way, extends to quite a few of us who were around when Octopussy and A View to a Kill lumbered onto the screens, and "we" left pretty unmoved, though, of course, not everyone will agree.
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