The Right Balance

CmdrAtticusCmdrAtticus United StatesPosts: 1,102MI6 Agent
I apologize if this topic has been already posted in the past and I missed it, but I thought it would be interesting to know which films members believe strike the best balance when it comes to the cinematic Bond stories/character and Fleming's version and if that balance can sustain the series or does it need to be weighted more to one side or the other depending on how the tastes of audiences change over the years. They have done this in the past of course, but is there a particular balance that would best fit both literary fans and cinematic fans or will the series always have to forever bend to the whims of future tastes?
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Comments

  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    The man from uncle film shows you can deliver a decent retro vibe while incorporating modern style action and relevance. In bonds case though the precedent has been set for bond to be set in current times, In my humble opinion I'd like more of Fleming's literary aspects to be incorporated. With the possible exception of maybe sir Roger, there has been some aspects of this with 007 himself but the Fleming world has dissappeard around him. I don't see why we have to pander to sensibilities as much but maybe that's just the film business? I think DC made a decent job in his early films of capturing a bit of literary bond as did Lazenby and connery. Dalton looked physically the nearest with connery close second. I think ohmss has the balance.
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,057Chief of Staff
    I apologize if this topic has been already posted in the past and I missed it

    No worries. I'm sure we have had something along these lines but the exact wording was different. If anyone remembers, please let me know.
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Pretty much the earliest Bonds struck the right balance -- the problem is that too often the ones that came later tilted too much in one direction or the other between being complete fantasy or focusing too much on the darker elements.

    The earliest Bonds found the kernel of what made the Fleming stories work. They had a tough but romanticized character put into exotic locations and facing colorful adversaries. The later films might have taken inspiration but got the formula wrong. The films were either too comic or too hard edged. Fleming created escape, and the Connery era provided it while also basing the character in a world that still seemed relevant.

    Bond might wear tailored suits, but he still looked like he combed his own hair. He might drive an expensive car, but he still obeyed laws. Bond might travel to places the average person did not, but the production took the time to make those locations a part of the story so that readers were transported there, too. The villains were given dimension, even as they were fantastic. While Bond handled the derring-do with capacity, he could still be scared, exhausted, uncertain, or exasperated, unlike later films that make him significantly more one-note except in scenes about a specific emotion (Bond is wounded, for instance).

    Casino Royale tried to re-create some of this, and often succeeded, but it, too, gave into modern concessions (the long action set pieces in lieu of more developed dialogue scenes, for instance). And while Craig is more suited for the role than most of his predecessors, he, too, plays Bond as more limited in emotional range than, say, Connery or Lazenby.

    The issue, therefore, is not so much whether the films develop Fleming qualities so much as which ones they focus on. The modern conceit -- at least the one since the Batman and Bourne films -- has been to focus on the darker elements.
  • OakvaleOakvale Pennsylvania Posts: 155MI6 Agent
    Dr. No and Live and Let Die strike me for some reason as two film adaptations that struck a good balance and provided reasons for why Bond was where he was and the importance for doing so. The Man with the Golden Gun did this to some extent as well, which was important given the globetrotting in that film.
  • MarcAngeDracoMarcAngeDraco Piz GloriaPosts: 564MI6 Agent
    The Bond films that seem the most balanced to me are:

    DN
    FRWL
    GF
    TB
    OHMSS
    TLD
    GE
    TWINE
    SF

    To me, these encapsulate everything I want in a Bond film, balancing the sensibilities of Fleming's character and world with the expectations of the ever-evolving film series as we push towards it's 60th year. It's vital to keep the balance as the films above did, because it's what distinguishes this library of films as a separate entity to other espionage thrillers. These aren't singularly action films. Or adventure films. They incorporate espionage with sex, action with humour, culture with bizarre, and if we're especially lucky, social commentary.

    TSWLM, FYEO, AVTAK, TND could qualify as well, but I think the absolutely perfect balance are the films above (even if two/three of the four are in my top 10).
    Film: Tomorrow Never Dies | Girl: Teresa di Vicenzo | Villain: Max Zorin | Car: Aston Martin Volante | Novel: You Only Live Twice | Bond: Sir Sean Connery
  • CmdrAtticusCmdrAtticus United StatesPosts: 1,102MI6 Agent
    Thanks for all the responses..I'm looking forward to hearing more... -{
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    edited March 2017
    I like the later Moores and the two Daltons: they take shorter Fleming stories and spin them out into larger stories that maintain the Fleming spirit
    as opposed to the earlier Moores and the later Connerys, where they use a couple of names and maybe the setting from the book, but otherwise abandon the source material after the first scene for something much more generic

    and I would love to see a period Bond film, the public would not be confused: that first Captain America film was one of the best written of the Marvel Films, and was no less successful at the box office than the others in the series, they should stop assuming the audiences are stoopid
  • welshguy34welshguy34 Posts: 219MI6 Agent
    Dr No, From Russia With Love and OHMSS for me.
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    welshguy34 wrote:
    Dr No, From Russia With Love and OHMSS for me.

    That's my pick too.

    As mentioned above by caractacus potts I too agree that FYEO, OP and AVTAK have some really good Fleming elements. In particular the Property of a Lady elements of OP.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,651MI6 Agent
    I think there can be an objective balance of the character that can strike the widest appeal for contemporary audiences, but to better motivate myself as I type this, I will stick to my subjective take on what should be the best balance ;)

    [list=*]
    [*]Book, Appearance: Black hair, handsome, tanned, slim, tall in context to whatever is accepted as tall today, more than 6 feet flat. The scar would be a bonus[/*]
    [/list]

    [list=*]
    [*]Film, Build: By today’s cinematic standards, fit, certainly superior to Robert Shaw as Grant, but not steroid-induced ripples, certainly not a Craig-like physique.[/*]
    [/list]

    [list=*]
    [*]Book, Demeanor: Saturnine, sardonic, humorous in an ironic, dark way, but certainly more winsome than Dalton. Make him speak and behave like someone in Bond's social echelon and give him the bearing befitting a Royal Navy officer.[/*]
    [/list]

    [list=*]
    [*]Book, Vices: Keep the alcohol intake but bring back the smoking and perhaps the occasional use of uppers (Benzedrine) in preparation for taxing operations.[/*]
    [/list]

    [list=*]
    [*]Film, Lifestyle: Keep the nice wardrobe beyond the standard set by Fleming. Elegant but nothing flashy, just enough to convey the stereotype of the well-dressed Englishman (apologies to Barbel). Keep the lifestyle excesses of the movies like the fine food, Dom Perignon champagne, etc. Keep the nice, state-of-the-art British made supercars, or even a “sedate” Bentley.[/*]
    [/list]

    [list=*]
    [*]Film, Females: Retain Movie Bond’s voracious appetite for sex and keep out the knight-errant altruism of Book Bond.[/*]
    [/list]

    [list=*]
    [*]Book, Secret Service Staff: Keep Bond the shiftless let loyal and reverential agent to M. Make Tanner look like a former Royal Marine who is Bond’s age with hints of being as formidable, at least during his years in the service. Keep Bond’s attraction to Moneypenny and the secretarial pool a “guy thing” between Bond and his fellow agents, but respectable when he’s actually interacting with them. Maybe the only movie character whose trait should be preserved is Q.[/*]
    [/list]

    [list=*]
    [*]Book & Film, Plot: The challenge is coming up with plots similar to those in the books that can be gripping in the narrative, yet engaging on film without going to gargantuan, doomsday level plots of the movies, so here it would be ideal to find a perfect balance.[/*]
    [/list]
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,057Chief of Staff
    Well said, supes.

    (And :D)
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    superado wrote:
    bring back the smoking

    No thanks. This is one thing that just doesn't work anymore.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • zaphod99zaphod99 Posts: 1,415MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Well said, supes.

    (And :D)

    Gets my vote. Particularly resonate with the bearing of a Naval officer. My main gripe with the Craig era is that in CR we were promised that by the end he would have 'become Bond' For me he never quite did, he lacked the Polish and the veneer of sophistication. Mrs Zaphod insists that he is a Sergeant Major, and not a fairly high ranking officer and a product of arguably the most elite of public schools (yes I know he was only there for a short time). leaving QoS aside for a moment he seemed to go from rookie to warhorse without pausing at prime.
    Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    superado wrote:
    bring back the smoking

    No thanks. This is one thing that just doesn't work anymore.

    Have to agree on this. Ignoring the political concerns that would take away his appeal for contemporary audiences, it's just not realistic. If Bond was a smoker again he wouldn't pass his physical and he'd be stuck to a desk job.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,651MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    superado wrote:
    bring back the smoking

    No thanks. This is one thing that just doesn't work anymore.

    Have to agree on this. Ignoring the political concerns that would take away his appeal for contemporary audiences, it's just not realistic. If Bond was a smoker again he wouldn't pass his physical and he'd be stuck to a desk job.

    By that logic, the Literary Bond and Bond played by Sean Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton and Brosnan would have never passed their physical exams.

    I can agree to Bond not smoking on a certain level, which would be the realm of reality and the known health effects of smoking. However, apart from artistic considerations for the practical such as the initial need to modify the literary character for film audiences, any revisionism to fit whatever newly realized social norm there is, is just plain artistic laziness.

    This as we know has been called the PC'ing of Bond and if done any further, some quarters including the film-makers should just question the appeal of the character, if Bond is still relevant or if an entirely new version of the character (preferably not named Bond) is called for to cater to newer audience tastes. It's not that much of a stretch to group other concerns about the character's fundamentals to perhaps make imminent versions a different race, gender, religious affiliation or sexual orientation.

    Keeping in mind the more impressionable movie goers, as an adult viewer I'm too jaded to be shocked by sex, alcohol and drug use and violence depicted on film. I do notice that there's been plenty of smoking in movies and shows I've watched recently. Also, it seems the license being taken is often through their setting and several are from the latter decades of the last century; so definitely there's an element of nostalgia that's being aimed towards mature audiences who are not affected as much.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    Moore only smoked in 2 films and Brosnan only smoked in 1, and they only smoked cigars. That's hardly comparable to Fleming's Bond. Brosnan smoking a cigar wasn't even part of a regular habit, so that wouldn't count against him. But now the audience expects Bond to actually perform the stunts that he does. It has to be realistic. Even if Moore's Bond did continue to smoke, his body wouldn't fly. Most of the Bonds probably would not have passed their physicals. The literary Bond certainly wouldn't have with today's standards.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,651MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    Moore only smoked in 2 films and Brosnan only smoked in 1, and they only smoked cigars. That's hardly comparable to Fleming's Bond. Brosnan smoking a cigar wasn't even part of a regular habit, so that wouldn't count against him. But now the audience expects Bond to actually perform the stunts that he does. It has to be realistic. Even if Moore's Bond did continue to smoke, his body wouldn't fly. Most of the Bonds probably would not have passed their physicals. The literary Bond certainly wouldn't have with today's standards.

    So here you are speaking on practical and not PC terms. Since cigar smoking (which is not inhaled) is not as harmful as cigarette smoking, esp. at the levels of Fleming's Bond, cigar smoking should be okay with little effect on Bond's physicality, right?

    If you're going for realism, wouldn't Bond's alcohol consumption affect his health and "realistically" prevent the physicality he performs on screen? We all know that the daily consumption of hard liquor results in clogged arteries that in turn affects cardio-vascular performance, a damaged liver and a heightened vulnerability to cancer to the mouth, throat, esophagus, stomach, liver, etc., as well as the killing of brain cells at an accelerated rate.

    Bond is a fantasy, just as the ill effects of Literary Bond's lifestyle didn't extend beyond his poor shape in TB, which was considerably mild. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to swim for several miles underwater on several occasions, jog on the sands of the Lido in Venice, or undertake a night and day trek in the wilderness of Canada and Vermont.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • welshguy34welshguy34 Posts: 219MI6 Agent
    superado wrote:
    bring back the smoking

    No thanks. This is one thing that just doesn't work anymore.

    Agree. It is no longer seen as cool to smoke.
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    welshguy34 wrote:
    superado wrote:
    bring back the smoking

    No thanks. This is one thing that just doesn't work anymore.

    Agree. It is no longer seen as cool to smoke.

    That's probably why they had Moore stop after TMWTGG. But it certainly wasn't cool when Dalton was Bond, though he did it anyway.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    welshguy34 wrote:

    No thanks. This is one thing that just doesn't work anymore.

    Agree. It is no longer seen as cool to smoke.

    That's probably why they had Moore stop after TMWTGG. But it certainly wasn't cool when Dalton was Bond, though he did it anyway.

    I think that was part of a concerted effort to return more to the flavour of the literary James Bond and, by extension, the early Connery Bond films. I think it suited Dalton's Bond to smoke. I don't smoke myself incidentally.
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    welshguy34 wrote:

    Agree. It is no longer seen as cool to smoke.

    That's probably why they had Moore stop after TMWTGG. But it certainly wasn't cool when Dalton was Bond, though he did it anyway.

    I think that was part of a concerted effort to return more to the flavour of the literary James Bond and, by extension, the early Connery Bond films. I think it suited Dalton's Bond to smoke. I don't smoke myself incidentally.

    Sure, it was. But I don't find Dalton's smoking to add any flavour to his Bond films. It doesn't take away anything either. It's a very subtle element of his character. The one time in Goldfinger when Connery smokes does a lot more than any time Dalton smokes in his two films.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,057Chief of Staff
    Timothy Dalton: "He [Bond] wasn't allowed to smoke; I think I managed to get a few puffs in, which they then cut out." (Not entirely, Tim)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/3651838/Shaking-off-the-bonds-of-007.html
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,651MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    Matt S wrote:

    That's probably why they had Moore stop after TMWTGG. But it certainly wasn't cool when Dalton was Bond, though he did it anyway.

    I think that was part of a concerted effort to return more to the flavour of the literary James Bond and, by extension, the early Connery Bond films. I think it suited Dalton's Bond to smoke. I don't smoke myself incidentally.

    Sure, it was. But I don't find Dalton's smoking to add any flavour to his Bond films. It doesn't take away anything either. It's a very subtle element of his character. The one time in Goldfinger when Connery smokes does a lot more than any time Dalton smokes in his two films.

    " I don't find Dalton's smoking to add any flavour to his Bond films."

    Maybe you don't find it so, but sure it did. Dalton's unabashed and comparatively frequent cigarette smoking was a stark change to the character after almost 18 years of no cigarettes for Bond, which was unanimously noticed by viewers and critics alike. That, along with other things he did differently, painted a non-establishment, non-apologetic and insufferable Bond that was a refreshing change and it significantly lent to his edgier image.

    You are correct, however, that his smoking didn’t take away anything from his portrayal, due in large part to PC attitudes that were just in their infancy at that time. Paradoxically, the beginnings of social awareness in the 80s made Dalton’s smoking just a bit more taboo and counter-culture "cool" compared to when Connery and Lazenby smoked in an era when doing so with children present was a non-issue.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    The biggest difference is that smoking no longer exhibits sophistication.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,651MI6 Agent
    The biggest difference is that smoking no longer exhibits sophistication.

    I never argued that it did, nor do I think it does. But for reasons of sophistication, isn't Bond's continuing drinking habit inconsistent with that line of thinking?
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I don't smoke quit over 20 years ago, but it's part of Bond's character ( like his heavy drinking)
    Gambling and womanising.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    I don't smoke quit over 20 years ago, but it's part of Bond's character ( like his heavy drinking)
    Gambling and womanising.

    So do you think the Bond character really only appears in 7 films? I don't count cigars since Fleming's Bond didn't smoke them.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    No I'm not that picky, Mr Bond has appeared in all of them, even when he didn't set foot in a casino
    for years.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,651MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    I don't smoke quit over 20 years ago, but it's part of Bond's character ( like his heavy drinking)
    Gambling and womanising.

    So do you think the Bond character really only appears in 7 films? I don't count cigars since Fleming's Bond didn't smoke them.

    The question posed on this thread is about the right balance between the literary and cinematic versions of Bond, not which specific traits precisely define who is James Bond. The "right balance" has been largely subjective across the board. However, a fundamental generalization of the character is one who is a hedonist of pleasures and vices among other signature traits, which has been consistent for the past 24 EON Bond films, 3 non-EON productions, 14 Fleming Books, continuation novels, comics, pastiches, etc.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    I think a large part of the right balance also needs to consider adapting the character to today's world. We've had so many different cinematic incarnations. Bond doesn't need to follow the outdated parts of Fleming's character. I'm sure if Fleming were alive in a different time, Bond would have different in some ways. And because of that, I think Bond can adapt. If he's going to live in today's world, he needs to follow today's rules. And then break the rules of today in the same way he broke the rules of the 1950s and 60s.

    Also, Bond really isn't a spy in the films anymore. Starting with Brosnan, James Bond turned into a pure action hero. The action stopped following the story, and the story started following the action. To me, that isn't Bond. With all of the concessions the films make to today's world, is it possible to bring back more of Fleming's type of story to the films? I know it's no longer the cold war, but it's not like today's world has become the world of shoot outs. Well, unfortunately it has in America. But that's not what I'd like to think of the world.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
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