Eva Green? Just as good as Diana Rigg?

actonsteveactonsteve Posts: 299MI6 Agent
I actually find Eva Greens Vesper Lynd as the probably 'Bond girl in waiting' to Ms Riggs crown as best Bond girl of all.

Just as this film creates a complex, multi-layered Bond, it also creates a complex Bond girl. Vesper is not a helpless bimbo, like most of the ‘70’s Bond girls were; nor is she an endlessly quipping, would-be superwoman like some of the ‘90’s Bond girls. She is an intelligent, quick-witted woman who is portrayed with realistic reactions to the events that occur in the movie. Thankfully, Green’s beauty is matched by her acting ability, which helps Vesper to emerge as a fully believable 3-dimensional character. In a film that carries a fair few echoes of On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, it’s somehow suitable that Green is not only the best Bond girl since Tracy in that movie... she may well be Tracy’s equal, both in acting and characterization.

Its a brilliantly written role. The stripping down to the bone of "her insecurities hide something that her male colleagues take as arrogance" is a very good piece of writing and could apply to alot of career women today. But there is something more to Vesper. Shes just as armoured as Bond and the armour comes away slowly just like his does. She is enigmatic, secretive. There is always more hidden away. We are intrigued by Vesper and Eva Green has the acting chops to pull it off. And the accent is interesting. I take it to mean a Frenchwoman perhaps brought up in England and retaining abit of both accents. After all, she works for the treasury - she must have been here a while.

I think her and Mads Mikkelsons layered but dangerous Le Chiffre are two of the films outstanding features.

Comments

  • emtiememtiem SurreyPosts: 5,686MI6 Agent
    I'd say the characterisation is better than Tracy, yes: Tracy seemed strong but turned into a screamy girl occasionally and also her psychological problems never seemed terribly believable. But I'd say Diana is better actress. No slight on Eva who is wonderful, but I tried imagining Rigg doing the lines on the train and I just think she'd have so much more sparkling and sexy. Rigg always bristles with intelligence, and I really think Vesper could have done with more of that.
  • actonsteveactonsteve Posts: 299MI6 Agent
    I thought Eva Green bristled with intelligence and wit? Were we watching the same film?
  • actonsteveactonsteve Posts: 299MI6 Agent
    And no one is a better actress then Dame Diana Rigg. I saw her in Medea five years ago and was rocked to my core.

    Diana is still Queen of the Bond girls and would have been fine as Vesper Lynd.But I do think Eva Green totally nailed the insecurity, mysteriousness and sheer enigma of Vesper. Which is what the character is all about.
  • 3rbrown3rbrown MI6 Top Secret - Scotland, GlaPosts: 100MI6 Agent
    Both are fantastic probably the best they are both very similer Bond loves them and in one case marries her and I think given enough time marry Vesper, Both are strong minded, tragic and also are abit depressed Tracy tries to kill her self and Vesperis found fully dressed (Pitty) in the shower even though they are very alike I preffer Vesper because she is Bond's first love:x
  • Klaus HergescheimerKlaus Hergescheimer Posts: 332MI6 Agent
    edited April 2007
    The more I watch the film, the more I think they should have soften Vesper quite a bit. Vesper from the novels was a professional woman, yes, but she wasn't cold=hearted bizzatch, which Vesper came off as in the film at times. To their credit, they did a great job of showing the vulnerability of Vesper's character (the stairwell scene, the shower scene, the dinner scene, her death), but I could have done without some of the cold bizzatch moments. The unadulterated arrogance on the train wasn't necessary: they should have just stuck with Bond trying to get the all-access to her love rug (thank you, Dr. House) and her coming across with "I'm here to do my job, sir." There was no need for her to try to interject with her professional opinion into Bond's character or into the prospects of his ability to win at poker: I don't think the novel Vesper was that aggressive or smart.

    Another problem I have with Eva's performance is that she marbles her words at times. I've seen the film close to 30 times, and there are still times when I can't understand what she's saying. If anything, she should have just performed with her regular French accent.

    Also, upon reflection, I think there are other actresses who probably match the novel character physically much more closely. Rachel McAdams would have been a really good choice for the physical match, and based on what I've seen of her in other films, she has the acting chops to have done a good job. Kate Beckinsale probably would have been good, too: her performance in Pearl Harbor is a good indication of how she could have played Vesper. But I think Eva's performance is good enough so as to not bring down the quality of the film at all.

    These aren't contentions that lower my opinion of the film: no film is perfect, and CR is still my favorite Bond film. But I would have presented Vesper much differently.
  • NightshooterNightshooter In bed with SolitairePosts: 2,917MI6 Agent
    I disagree about McAdams- too babyfaced, she doesn't really look like a woman. There is a reason she was cast in Meangirls.

    As for Beckinsale, that may have worked.

    But I loved Eva, and I think she was perfect. Strong yet vulnerable.
  • highhopeshighhopes Posts: 1,358MI6 Agent
    actonsteve wrote:
    And no one is a better actress then Dame Diana Rigg. I saw her in Medea five years ago and was rocked to my core.

    Diana is still Queen of the Bond girls and would have been fine as Vesper Lynd.But I do think Eva Green totally nailed the insecurity, mysteriousness and sheer enigma of Vesper. Which is what the character is all about.

    {[]I'll drink to that. Dame Diana is definitely one of the all-time great actresses, as well as seriously babe-a-licious back in the day when she wore those skintight leathers. In fact, after getting to know her as Emma Peele, she was a little hard to swallow as a suicide case in OHMSS. Frankly, in a fight with Lazenby, I wouldn't count her out. Not really, of course, but there's just nothing weak-looking about her. But Tracy was at least an interesting role and she did a nice job. As for Vesper. I think Eva's youth worked in her favor and helped put across that insecure, nervous quality.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    As to written characters, the first three Bond girls, Honey, Tania, and Pussy, were all nicely drawn women, I thought, and all three actresses--Andress, Bianchi, and Blackman--did great jobs. Certainly both the writing and the performances were many cuts above the more bimbo-ish 70s and 80s gals. I have somewhat of a problem with the dubbing of the earlier actresses, hard to really say they were hitting the character when it was the VO artist saying all the lines--but the combo was sure effective. Also kinda why I put Blackman and Rigg as the best from the 60s, and I agree that Green's Vesper should be in that mix as well for best Bond girl: very well written and acted, head and shoulders above anything since Tracy/Rigg IMHO. I think as everything about Bond became more and more formulaic, it was just tough to write real (er, more real, lol) characters into them, and the female characters became perfunctory. With a few commendable exceptions, like Seymour's Solitaire, or Hatcher's Paris.

    Really curious to see what happens with Bond 22, if they revert back to (what unfortunaely has become) the more traditional Bond girl. But I kinda think not, P&W came up with some interesting variations during the Brosnan years, even if the execution was a bit stiff. They should be able to build on those experiences and come up with a character close to Vesper's quality. IMHO, and well, hopefully.
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly Liverpool, UKPosts: 1,048MI6 Agent
    Fish1941 wrote:
    As for who is the Queen of the Bond Girls? Who knows?

    Exactly. This is an age old, never to be solved question which will haunt Bond fans for millenia.

    Though we all know Diana Rigg is the best :D
    Founder of the Wint & Kidd Appreciation Society.

    @merseytart
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,057Chief of Staff
    Though we all know Diana Rigg is the best :D

    Perfectly true. After Honor Blackman, of course ;).
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly Liverpool, UKPosts: 1,048MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Though we all know Diana Rigg is the best :D

    Perfectly true. After Honor Blackman, of course ;).

    That's fighting talk, mister ;)
    Founder of the Wint & Kidd Appreciation Society.

    @merseytart
  • highhopeshighhopes Posts: 1,358MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Though we all know Diana Rigg is the best :D

    Perfectly true. After Honor Blackman, of course ;).

    {[] All right, Barbel. Me too. Honor was scorching hot. More of a "Bond woman" than "Bond girl." I've been hooked ever since that close-shave line -- and I didn't even shave at the time. What was it about The Avengers that produced such great actresses for the Bond films? Patrick McNee must feel pretty smug, figuring he had 'em first. :))
  • highhopeshighhopes Posts: 1,358MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Though we all know Diana Rigg is the best :D

    Perfectly true. After Honor Blackman, of course ;).

    {[] All right, Barbel. Me too. Honor was scorching hot. More of a "Bond woman" than "Bond girl." I've been hooked ever since that close-shave line -- and I didn't even shave at the time. What was it about The Avengers that produced such great actresses for the Bond films. Patrick McNee must feel pretty smug, figuring he had 'em first. :)) Did Pam Thorson (if that's correct) ever do a Bond film?
  • John DrakeJohn Drake On assignmentPosts: 2,564MI6 Agent
    highhopes wrote:
    Did Pam Thorson (if that's correct) ever do a Bond film?

    Linda Thorson. No, I don't think she did. Joanna Lumley, from 'The New Avengers' is in OHMSS, but I'm pretty certain Thorson never did.
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    actonsteve wrote:
    I actually find Eva Greens Vesper Lynd as the probably 'Bond girl in waiting' to Ms Riggs crown as best Bond girl of all.

    Just as this film creates a complex, multi-layered Bond, it also creates a complex Bond girl. Vesper is not a helpless bimbo, like most of the ‘70’s Bond girls were; nor is she an endlessly quipping, would-be superwoman like some of the ‘90’s Bond girls. She is an intelligent, quick-witted woman who is portrayed with realistic reactions to the events that occur in the movie. Thankfully, Green’s beauty is matched by her acting ability, which helps Vesper to emerge as a fully believable 3-dimensional character. In a film that carries a fair few echoes of On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, it’s somehow suitable that Green is not only the best Bond girl since Tracy in that movie... she may well be Tracy’s equal, both in acting and characterization.

    Its a brilliantly written role. The stripping down to the bone of "her insecurities hide something that her male colleagues take as arrogance" is a very good piece of writing and could apply to alot of career women today. But there is something more to Vesper. Shes just as armoured as Bond and the armour comes away slowly just like his does. She is enigmatic, secretive. There is always more hidden away. We are intrigued by Vesper and Eva Green has the acting chops to pull it off. And the accent is interesting. I take it to mean a Frenchwoman perhaps brought up in England and retaining abit of both accents. After all, she works for the treasury - she must have been here a while.

    I think her and Mads Mikkelsons layered but dangerous Le Chiffre are two of the films outstanding features.
    Equal? No. Diana Rigg exceeds in all categories, not the least of which is beauty. But Eva Green certainly offers more than pretty much any other Bond girl of the past 20 years, in part due to a decent script.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,057Chief of Staff
    Barbel wrote:
    Though we all know Diana Rigg is the best :D

    Perfectly true. After Honor Blackman, of course ;).

    That's fighting talk, mister ;)

    No problem; let's put Honor and Diana in a boxing ring, have them strip off and fight it out...:))

    Excuse me, I'm having difficulty seeing the screen now.
  • Lazenby880Lazenby880 LondonPosts: 525MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Barbel wrote:

    Perfectly true. After Honor Blackman, of course ;).

    That's fighting talk, mister ;)

    No problem; let's put Honor and Diana in a boxing ring, have them strip off and fight it out...:))

    Excuse me, I'm having difficulty seeing the screen now.
    Perhaps a re-enactment of the FRWL gypsy fight would be more appropriate? ;)
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    No problem; let's put Honor and Diana in a boxing ring, have them strip off and fight it out...:))
    This would be perfect for the 'sexiest Bond moments' thread. :D
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,057Chief of Staff
    Lazenby880 wrote:
    Perhaps a re-enactment of the FRWL gypsy fight would be more appropriate? ;)

    Of course, you're right. Faithful to the novel, naturally B-).
  • Moore Not LessMoore Not Less Posts: 1,095MI6 Agent
    Lazenby880 wrote:
    Barbel wrote:

    That's fighting talk, mister ;)

    No problem; let's put Honor and Diana in a boxing ring, have them strip off and fight it out...:))

    Excuse me, I'm having difficulty seeing the screen now.
    Perhaps a re-enactment of the FRWL gypsy fight would be more appropriate? ;)

    What a good idea. Just make sure that mud is involved to give the fight extra credibility. :D
  • Klaus HergescheimerKlaus Hergescheimer Posts: 332MI6 Agent
    Fish1941 wrote:
    I never saw any need to "soften" Vesper's character. So what if she can be a little too icy at times? It's probably her way of emotionally defending herself from others . . . just as Bond resorted to getting involved with unavailable women, so that he doesn't become emotionally attached. As I recall, Tracy was also capable of being a little icy during her early encounters with Bond.

    As for who is the Queen of the Bond Girls? Who knows?

    It's not "that" which I have a problem with, necessarily, as long as the iciness portrayed specifically as a defense mechanism to not get involved. I see this in the literary Vesper.

    The big problem I have with her iciness is that they used it, in part, to convey some sort of arrogance. In the train, she comes across as someone who clearly thinks very highly of herself and her abilities, and she comes across at times as some chip-on-her-shoulder femini-Nazi. (A term terms for which I owe much gratitude to Rush Limbaugh) I don't think Vesper was anything near that, and I certainly wouldn't say she comes across as some master professional. I think doing this with Eva takes away some of her vulnerability, which is critical. The ladies will be ****ed with my chauvinistic attitude, but oh well: I like blondes. ;)

    But as I said, this aspect of her presentation doesn't lessen my enjoyment of CR at all. But if they had gone somewhere else in the train scene, it may have been that much better.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    Agree with the fish. Green's Vesper came off as intelligent and firey and sexy--a combo Bond was immediately attracted to. I think she played it great.
  • Barry NelsonBarry Nelson ChicagoPosts: 1,508MI6 Agent
    I agree with Klaus, Vesper comes off as way too uptight and cold. The Vesper in the novel was much more interesting IMO. I never warmed up to Green's character at all and never believed the love connection between Bond and her. The emotional connection between Lazenby and Rigg in OHMSS is much stronger. I still believe Green is one of the all time worst Bond girls.
  • MoniqueMonique USAPosts: 696MI6 Agent
    edited April 2007
    The big problem I have with her iciness is that they used it, in part, to convey some sort of arrogance. In the train, she comes across as someone who clearly thinks very highly of herself and her abilities, and she comes across at times as some chip-on-her-shoulder femini-Nazi. (A term terms for which I owe much gratitude to Rush Limbaugh) I don't think Vesper was anything near that, and I certainly wouldn't say she comes across as some master professional. I think doing this with Eva takes away some of her vulnerability, which is critical. The ladies will be ****ed with my chauvinistic attitude, but oh well: I like blondes. ;)

    It's not the chauvanistic attitude that bothers me as much as you quoting Rush Limbaugh. You lost me when you used that fool's phrasing.

    I also agree with Fish, Vesper was giving back exactly what Bond had just dished out. And hers hit much more of a nerve. That's the chance you take when you judge someone like he did. I thought that was a really great scene.
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