Ian Fleming casual racism

jamesm123jamesm123 LondonPosts: 182MI6 Agent
I've just re-read the FYEO collection and was astonished by some of the racism, specifically the word beginning with the letter N. I remember one of the chapters from LALD has an unfortunate title and in one of the other novels (is it Thunderball or Moonraker) Bond is actually told off for using the N word. I know Fleming lived in Jamaica and must have been used to a mix of different people.
The reason it confuses me is my family lived in the Bahamas in the 60's which was a mostly Black community and they were/are never derogatory about it. I think it's too easy to say "oh it was the times/olden days" etc. Maybe Fleming was really just a snob and a bit of a racist?
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Comments

  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    Flemming comes from the Era of Racism, Sexism, etc. All deemed Vulgar by nowadays.
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Racism was very common Then, Infact in many places it still is. :#
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    edited March 2013
    Yes, Fleming was in some ways racist by our modern multi-cltural British (and US) standards; of course they were very different from the standards of his age. I think it was Adrian Turner of the book on the Goldfinger film who said that Ian Fleming was a man born in 1908 with the values of the 1930s in the 1950s and 1960s. I think that about (succinctly) answers your question here. :)
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • DouglasJDouglasJ Posts: 18MI6 Agent
    This is a topic that seems to be coming up increasingly often. Ultimately, the novels are products of their times Certainly, people held different attitudes then. It SHOULD be shocking to us reading them now, but we shouldn't condemn them for it. After all, it was another time.

    I wouldn't want to see them edited to remove the content, because then in some small way we'd be erasing the past.
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    DouglasJ wrote:
    This is a topic that seems to be coming up increasingly often. Ultimately, the novels are products of their times Certainly, people held different attitudes then. It SHOULD be shocking to us reading them now, but we shouldn't condemn them for it. After all, it was another time.

    I wouldn't want to see them edited to remove the content, because then in some small way we'd be erasing the past.

    Agreed on that. Yes, racism has come up many times over the years on these Bond websites and their discussions. They did in fact "erase the past" when LALD and DAF were published in the United States - just see the Berkeley 'Race Edits' released there - the novels were not actually publishede in the United States in their complete form until 2002 with the Penguin reprints. See my related article here for more details on the editing, censoring and banning of the James Bond novels:

    http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/james-bond-novels-that-were-edited.html
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • always shakenalways shaken LondonPosts: 6,287MI6 Agent
    sorry to transgress but didnt the fabulous Richard Todds portrayal of wing co Guy Gibson
    in dam busters, wasnt his chocolate lab called the dreadfull n word ?
    im sure Todd being an officer and a gentleman would have been utterly dismayed
    at the use of it but unfortunatley i suppose thats how it was and im glad
    we have moved on somewhat
    By the way, did I tell you, I was "Mad"?
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    Not to excuse or condone Fleming, but he wasn't alone and not the worst in this reprehensible area. Some of Agatha Christie's works were edited/censored for US and other markets and make uncomfortable reading today.
  • DouglasJDouglasJ Posts: 18MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Not to excuse or condone Fleming, but he wasn't alone and not the worst in this reprehensible area. Some of Agatha Christie's works were edited/censored for US and other markets and make uncomfortable reading today.

    I don't think he needs excused.

    Like I said people need to remember that this was a different time. Rather than condemning the man, we need to understand that our perceptions have changed over the decades. Fleming came from a time where this sort of thinking was acceptable, and we need to understand that when we read the novels.

    It doesn't mean we all need to turn into raving racists, we can just say "People were misguided back then" and move on. We cannot judge Fleming by modern standards.
  • perdoggperdogg Posts: 432MI6 Agent
    Yes, Fleming was in some ways racist by our modern multi-cltural British (and US) standards; of course they were very different from the standards of his age. I think it was Adrian Turner of the book on the Goldfinger film who said that Ian Fleming was a man born in 1908 with the values of the 1930s in the 1950s and 1960s. I think that about (succinctly) answers your question here. :)


    Actually if you read Ken Follet's intro to the 2007 Folio edition of LALD he says:

    Politically, Fleming is a conservative in all respects but one. His attitude to race lies on the far left of fifties liberalism.(Page xiv - Live Let and Let Die, Introduction - Copyright by Ken Follet, 2007)
    "And if I told you that I'm from the Ministry of Defence?" James Bond - The Property of a Lady
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    edited March 2013
    perdogg wrote:
    Yes, Fleming was in some ways racist by our modern multi-cltural British (and US) standards; of course they were very different from the standards of his age. I think it was Adrian Turner of the book on the Goldfinger film who said that Ian Fleming was a man born in 1908 with the values of the 1930s in the 1950s and 1960s. I think that about (succinctly) answers your question here. :)


    Actually if you read Ken Follet's intro to the 2007 Folio edition of LALD he says:

    Politically, Fleming is a conservative in all respects but one. His attitude to race lies on the far left of fifties liberalism.(Page xiv - Live Let and Let Die, Introduction - Copyright by Ken Follet, 2007)

    Interesting quote which suggests the critical line on Fleming and casual racism may have been wrong. Fleming had black servants at Goldeneye in those colonial days, after all.
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent

    Interesting quote which suggests the critical line on Fleming and casualo racism may have been wrong. Fleming had black servants at Goldeneye in those colonial days, after all.

    Sorry, I'm not quite sure I understand your comment. Are you saying Fleming was racist for having black staff at Goldeneye or was not racist because he hired black staff at Goldeneye?
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent

    Interesting quote which suggests the critical line on Fleming and casualo racism may have been wrong. Fleming had black servants at Goldeneye in those colonial days, after all.

    Sorry, I'm not quite sure I understand your comment. Are you saying Fleming was racist for having black staff at Goldeneye or was not racist because he hired black staff at Goldeneye?

    I'm saying he was not racist for hiring black staff. Thought the comment was pretty clear myself.
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    Thanks for the clarification. The confusion was likely all mine...when I read it the first time I saw it both ways and then couldn't get my eyes uncrossed.

    While I do believe that Fleming was likely less racist than many people of his class at that time, I'm afraid that his hiring of Violet can't be interpreted as an indication that Fleming wasn't racist. Goldeneye was in Jamaica, Violet was Jamaican. Even rampant racists living in Jamaica (or elsewhere in the West Indies or Africa) at the time - and there were many - hired locals as domestic staff and in most cases treated them well. It's an inconclusive indication in my opinion.
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    Thanks for the clarification. The confusion was likely all mine...when I read it the first time I saw it both ways and then couldn't get my eyes uncrossed.

    While I do believe that Fleming was likely less racist than many people of his class at that time, I'm afraid that his hiring of Violet can't be interpreted as an indication that Fleming wasn't racist. Goldeneye was in Jamaica, Violet was Jamaican. Even rampant racists living in Jamaica (or elsewhere in the West Indies or Africa) at the time - and there were many - hired locals as domestic staff and in most cases treated them well. It's an inconclusive indication in my opinion.

    Yes, I suspect you're right. I guess I just want to see Ian Fleming as the kindly man I think that he really was at heart. I don't like him tarred with the brush of racism and feel the need to defend him somewhat. -{
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    I also greatly admire Fleming for fulfilling his dream (even if he wasn't terribly happy by the time he achieved his aims of wealth and fame) and for creating such a superb character, but the more I read about him the less convinced I am that he was an especially nice chap. I'm not for an instance suggesting he was a villain, but I do get the feeling that he was a little stand-offish and not necessarily the warmest sort unless you were part of his very much compartmentalised circles of friends. He definitely had liberal tendencies and is therefore rather unlikely to have been a bigot - especially when you consider that although a 'raving' heterosexual himself he had homosexual friends - but I just don't get the warm fuzzies for him whenever I read biographical info.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff

    I guess I just want to see Ian Fleming as the kindly man I think that he really was at heart. I don't like him tarred with the brush of racism and feel the need to defend him somewhat. -{

    I'm with you, SM. Having read and loved his books repeatedly for more years than I care to mention, I also feel the need to support him, though times have changed and his writing is often cringeworthy (esp LALD).
  • perdoggperdogg Posts: 432MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:

    I guess I just want to see Ian Fleming as the kindly man I think that he really was at heart. I don't like him tarred with the brush of racism and feel the need to defend him somewhat. -{

    I'm with you, SM. Having read and loved his books repeatedly for more years than I care to mention, I also feel the need to support him, though times have changed and his writing is often cringeworthy (esp LALD).


    I think there is some unfairness to Fleming. Stephen King wrote "The Running Man" and no one has ever accused him of being a racist for the way the n-word is thrown around in the novel. I am not a racist but the use of the n-word in writing is appropriate given its use in today's society. As for Fleming's views on race; noting that some one appears to be Jewish or using 'black' dialect is an honest appraisal. I think it was in the "Grapes of Wrath" where poor white people were 'white' dialect portrayed. The writer is merely painting a picture.

    Also, clearly Americans, other than Tiffany Case and Felix Leiter, are not Bond's favorite people. However, I am not offended by it.
    "And if I told you that I'm from the Ministry of Defence?" James Bond - The Property of a Lady
  • always shakenalways shaken LondonPosts: 6,287MI6 Agent
    didnt Kanaga in LALD say Take this honkey out and waste him?
    By the way, did I tell you, I was "Mad"?
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    perdogg wrote:
    Also, clearly Americans, other than Tiffany Case and Felix Leiter, are not Bond's favorite people. However, I am not offended by it.

    ...and Fleming was very, very fond of all things American. He'd stop there whenever he went to/from Jamaica (which was annually at least) and at any other opportunity that arose. So any criticism of Americans in the books - and there certainly is - really wasn't a reflection of his own taste and opinion.
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    didnt Kanaga in LALD say Take this honkey out and waste him?

    Yes, but that's reverse racism against whites - that doesn't count, I guess. :#
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    always shaken wrote:
    didnt Kanaga in LALD say Take this honkey out and waste him?

    Although wasn't this from the Movie, so not really Fleming ?
    I always regarded it more as Street slang.

    And, Yes anyone can be Racist, was it not Austin Powers Father who said.

    http://youtu.be/QJ882QYzr-M

    "There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of
    other people's cultures, .................................................... and the Dutch! " :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    Yes, that was from the movie version of LALD, but the rovel had its racial tones too, of course.
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Agreed, But given how the white Race has treated Other races
    for centuries, I think we can put up with a few Names. ;)
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    Agreed, But given how the white Race has treated Other races
    for centuries, I think we can put up with a few Names. ;)

    Quite. Us Limey pommie honkies have a lot to answer for! :))
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    :))
    That Empire didn't build itself, you know.

    (I didn't actually know what Honkie meant untill a few years ago.
    I'm so Bloody Innocent, or Stupid. ) :#
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    edited March 2013
    :))
    That Empire didn't build itself, you know.

    (I didn't actually know what Honkie meant untill a few years ago.
    I'm so Bloody Innocent, or Stupid. ) :#

    I myself only looked it up a few days ago. I'd never known it was an early 1970s term of abuse against whites - a bit before my time, of course. So don't be too hard on yourself, TP. :)
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • RevelatorRevelator Posts: 558MI6 Agent
    jamesm123 wrote:
    I've just re-read the FYEO collection and was astonished by some of the racism, specifically the word beginning with the letter N.

    I don't recall any particularly racist passages in FYEO. Are you sure it's not LALD you're thinking of? The N word was used far more casually back then (and even farther back--in Huckleberry Finn it's synonymous with Black) and even more casually in Britain than in America--Agatha Christie's Ten Little Indians was originally titled Ten Little N****** and the word was casually dropped on British television into the 1970s (the Major says it in an episode of Fawlty Towers).
    I remember one of the chapters from LALD has an unfortunate title and in one of the other novels (is it Thunderball or Moonraker) Bond is actually told off for using the N word.

    The Chapter title refers to a place name, and though informal, I presume Fleming didn't make it up.
    As for the telling off, here is the passage in question, from Diamonds Are Forever:
    Bond had a natural affection for coloured people, but he reflected how lucky England was compared with America where you had to live with the coloured problem from the schooldays up. He smiled as he remembered something Felix Leiter had said to him on their last assignment together in America. Bond had referred to Mr. Big, the famous Harlem criminal, as 'that damned n*****'. Leiter had picked him up. 'Careful now James,' he had said. 'People are so sensitive about colour around here that you can't even ask a barman for a jigger of rum. You have to ask for a jegro.'
    The memory of Leiter's wisecrack cheered Bond up.

    As we see above, as an Englishman Bond (and Fleming) feels farther from the "coloured problem" and tend to more casually drop racial epithets that were becoming progressively more taboo in the U.S. Bond's "natural affection for coloured people" is obviously of the patronizing sort, but his racial attitudes are not radically beyond the pale of his creator's time and class. Still, one wishes Fleming had been sensitive enough about color to not use the concept as the butt of a joke.

    Was Fleming not "an especially nice chap"? His attitudes on race and gender are not easy-reading for modern audiences, and Sean Connery thought he was a snob. But Connery also thought he was great company, and Fleming's co-workers spoke glowingly of him as an excellent boss. The balance seems to be positive. I would certainly like to have met him.
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    edited June 2014
    Revelator wrote:
    jamesm123 wrote:
    I've just re-read the FYEO collection and was astonished by some of the racism, specifically the word beginning with the letter N.

    I don't recall any particularly racist passages in FYEO. Are you sure it's not LALD you're thinking of? The N word was used far more casually back then (and even farther back--in Huckleberry Finn it's synonymous with Black) and even more casually in Britain than in America--Agatha Christie's Ten Little Indians was originally titled Ten Little N****** and the word was casually dropped on British television into the 1970s (the Major says it in an episode of Fawlty Towers).
    I remember one of the chapters from LALD has an unfortunate title and in one of the other novels (is it Thunderball or Moonraker) Bond is actually told off for using the N word.

    The Chapter title refers to a place name, and though informal, I presume Fleming didn't make it up.
    As for the telling off, here is the passage in question, from Diamonds Are Forever:
    Bond had a natural affection for coloured people, but he reflected how lucky England was compared with America where you had to live with the coloured problem from the schooldays up. He smiled as he remembered something Felix Leiter had said to him on their last assignment together in America. Bond had referred to Mr. Big, the famous Harlem criminal, as 'that damned n*****'. Leiter had picked him up. 'Careful now James,' he had said. 'People are so sensitive about colour around here that you can't even ask a barman for a jigger of rum. You have to ask for a jegro.'
    The memory of Leiter's wisecrack cheered Bond up.

    As we see above, as an Englishman Bond (and Fleming) feels farther from the "coloured problem" and tend to more casually drop racial epithets that were becoming progressively more taboo in the U.S. Bond's "natural affection for coloured people" is obviously of the patronizing sort, but his racial attitudes are not radically beyond the pale of his creator's time and class. Still, one wishes Fleming had been sensitive enough about color to not use the concept as the butt of a joke.

    Was Fleming not "an especially nice chap"? His attitudes on race and gender are not easy-reading for modern audiences, and Sean Connery thought he was a snob. But Connery also thought he was great company, and Fleming's co-workers spoke glowingly of him as an excellent boss. The balance seems to be positive. I would certainly like to have met him.

    That DAF passage quoted above was actually cut altogether from the American edition of the novel and only appears in the UK edition. As for the 'Nigger Heaven' chapter title, Fleming did not in fact make that up, but it was rather the title of a book by Carl van Vechten, a 1928 novel that was part of the 'Harlem Renaissance' literary movement. It has been a controversial book title even from the date of its publication and one can of course understand why. So Fleming is not responsible for this title. I found the book in a second-hand shop in 2008; though this fact about the novel seems not to be very well known.
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • jamesm123jamesm123 LondonPosts: 182MI6 Agent
    In the FYEO book black women are referred to as "Negresses" and there are constant references to "Niggerheads" which I guess are a sort of coral. I don't think Ian Fleming was actually a nasty racist. Anyone who's seen Django Unchained will remember the language and I don't think of Tarantino as a racist.
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    jamesm123 wrote:
    In the FYEO book black women are referred to as "Negresses" and there are constant references to "Niggerheads" which I guess are a sort of coral. I don't think Ian Fleming was actually a nasty racist. Anyone who's seen Django Unchained will remember the language and I don't think of Tarantino as a racist.

    Negress is the female version of the male Negro, a now dated/offensive term for a black person.
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
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