A question for gun experts.

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    " It's the pelvic thrust, that drives them insane !" ;)
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 977MI6 Agent
    stag wrote:
    Thanks for that. I shall be incorporating these details in my next story, I don't know the circumstances in which gun play will be involved yet but I'm guessing it may include someone getting shot in the pelvis!

    Just don't make it intentional. We were doing it in scenario training with the assumption that the bad guys were wearing bodyarmour. Not many of those in the ww2 era.

    Anyways .32 caliber was, if not the caliber, then popular enough to make it the best choice. Kind of like 9mm today, no matter where in the world you are, you can find ammo for it. Yes there were better stoppers, but not with the same availability.

    Good choices would be PPK, JP Sauer 38H, the aforementioned Colt pistols, FN Browning 1910 or Mauser HSc.
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
  • stagstag Posts: 2,083MI6 Agent
    A few questions for gun experts.

    The 1911 in .39 super (the original version), would you consider any benefits in CQB whereby wadcutter rounds would be preferable to 'normal' ammo? Were wadcutters available from the 1930's onwards? What in you opinion is the best way to carry this weapon to allow it to be drawn quickly but remain as concealed as possible. Just for your information for my purposes (a novel) it would be worn under a suite jacket or perhaps an overcoat. Also what about a small back up gun? What do you suggest & where would you wear it for best effect? My character will be expecting big trouble.

    Thanks in advance.
  • Asp9mmAsp9mm Over the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
    .39 super of the time was capable of better penetration through thick clothing and even body armour. Wadcutters were not available in this period, although modified 'dum dum' bullets were. These offered better expansion and internal damage, as well as stopping penetration which may be useful where hostages are present or aboard aircraft at altitude.

    Best concealment is with a belt holster at 3 or 4 o'clock. That is where it should be worn for speed and ease of access with maybe a mag or coins in the jacket pocket on the same side so that the added weight gives maximum clearance when you flick it aside. As a small back up gun, you can't beat the .25 Browning and Colts from this period. You could carry two or three in any pocket if professional paranoia is at the forefront of your mind. You could stick one of these in the onside jacket pocket to aid drawing down on the .39, and if you lose the .39, then your back up is immediately available with your strong hand.
    ..................Asp9mmSIG-1-2.jpg...............
  • stagstag Posts: 2,083MI6 Agent
    Brilliant intel. Thanks. I will be incorporating your suggestions. Of course I meant the .38 super so forgive the typo! I had thought about the detective special as the main arm but the story will require a weapon with more 'oomph'. I have in mind an interesting running firefight which takes place in a very unusual location & given his opposition I need my man to be armed appropriately.
  • Asp9mmAsp9mm Over the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
    Ooops. I made the same typo :))
    ..................Asp9mmSIG-1-2.jpg...............
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    On a similar but completely different type question ......
    Once again watching TLD, M states that the SAS have been put on Full alert about
    the three 00s, sneaking in.
    Now my question is. Would this happen ? as surely a sneak attack would be to check out
    the readiness of a base without prior notice ? Secondly the soldiers on Gibraltar, ( to me at
    least) seem like ordinary squaddies and not elite troops.
    I know it's only a film, so was only a short hand way of letting the audience know how elite
    the 00 section is.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Asp9mmAsp9mm Over the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
    Of course the SAS would have to be informed, otherwise the OO's would be shot with live ammo :)) Let's face it, in TLD the SAS and the OO's are really poo.
    ..................Asp9mmSIG-1-2.jpg...............
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    :)) never thought of that :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 977MI6 Agent
    Asp9mm wrote:
    Of course the SAS would have to be informed, otherwise the OO's would be shot with live ammo...
    Well the sas have been known to do that, when they're relaxing in Gibraltar....
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    Asp9mm wrote:
    You've just invented something that can go wrong. Guns are simple things, they don't have stabilisation. The recoil would blow it all to crap. A gun is just a tube with a projectile in it that is forced forward very fast by an explosion behind it.

    That was a question for experts and not for idiots like yourself 8-)
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • always shakenalways shaken LondonPosts: 6,287MI6 Agent
    Asp9mm wrote:
    Of course the SAS would have to be informed, otherwise the OO's would be shot with live ammo :)) Let's face it, in TLD the SAS and the OO's are really poo.

    Not a Geordie amongst them :)
    By the way, did I tell you, I was "Mad"?
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,704MI6 Agent
    I have to agree with you. First of all the troops should have been Royal Marine Commandoes. They are still elite, but it would have much more belivable as a guard force. But most of all it's a little embarrasing how 007 and the SAS "fight". But basically just runs into each other, grunt and the SAS-man falls over. It would have been much more cool if Bond had used some inventive trick or tecnique to put them out of action for a moment.
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,645MI6 Agent
    edited December 2015
    I think that the TLD PTS was intended to (a) introduce Timothy Dalton as the new action-man James Bond in a very physical way and (b) show how James Bond was the cream of the crop from amongst the Double-O agents and the man that M would always turn to first in a crisis. In order for that plan to be effective, the other Double-O agents had to be pushovers. After all, there can only be one main hero in the James Bond film franchise! That's my theory anyway, and I'm sticking to it! :) -{
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,704MI6 Agent
    This is a photo of SOE agent Max Manus, a legend in Norway, while he was a bodyguard for the king in May 1945. My question is simply what type of SMG is he holding?

    max.jpg
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    Looks like a version of the beretta 38/44 to me, there are quite a few variations of these Italian smg's.
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,704MI6 Agent
    I googled the Beretta smg's and it might fit, but perhaps not quite. Never heard of Berettas being used by SOE before. Manus was a volounteer in the winter war in Finland - could it be a Suomi? Perhaps with a shortened barrel? Nothing seems to quite fit the photo ...

    f1m31c.jpg
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    There were quite a few variations of the beretta, it is similar to suomi, though I always thought they used the round casket type magazine? I could be wrong about that! Was the suomi a Finnish made gun? suomi kp could be your answer.
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,704MI6 Agent
    Suomi usually had round mags, but not always. I know the Norwegian military uesed Suomis afer the war, among other units special forces, so it seems some were in the country.
  • Asp9mmAsp9mm Over the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
    SOE used what they could get their hands on. Italian guns were used widely, especially Berettas, including the .25. It's safe to assume Fleming handled that particular weapon whilst liaising with 64 Baker St. However the SMG Manus used wasn't a Beretta. The SMG in the picture is almost certainly a shortened Suomi.
    ..................Asp9mmSIG-1-2.jpg...............
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    There you go Number24 it seems we all concur on the suomi, with a modified shortened barrel.
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    I've just been reading up on the winter war, quite fascinating, the Italians actually sent weapons in support of the Finnish so Asp9mm is quite right that beretta would be widespread, and also it seems Christopher Lee volunteered and fought against the Russians quite a neat Bond link right there.
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • mikekilo725mikekilo725 Posts: 75MI6 Agent
    stag wrote:
    Firing directly at a target through glass using a pistol would not have any effect to the round, it would just go through it like - well like a bullet through glass! The whole smashing of glass before discharging the weapon has always been something of a misnomer to me.

    Up close that is true, but once you start talking long range shooting or low powered rounds something as simple as a plate of glass could affect the trajectory of a bullet. That is why the sniper in Skyfall cuts a hole in the glass. Also, in long range shooting there are things that you can add to your rifle to take into account the rotation of the earth as your bullet is in flight to the target, but this really only comes into play at 800+ meters. Going back to the OP, you could envision a method to suspend the barrel or hold it true, but you have introduced a point of failure that you would have to baby, so it wouldn't be useful in the real world where soldiers beat things to heck just by doing what they are trained to do.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,704MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    This is a photo of SOE agent Max Manus, a legend in Norway, while he was a bodyguard for the king in May 1945. My question is simply what type of SMG is he holding?

    max.jpg

    I googled "suomi short" and got this photo:

    suomi_0hva.jpg

    It seems to be a fit. Thanks for the help :)
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    edited January 2016
    Asp9mm wrote:
    SOE used what they could get their hands on. Italian guns were used widely, especially Berettas, including the .25. It's safe to assume Fleming handled that particular weapon whilst liaising with 64 Baker St. However the SMG Manus used wasn't a Beretta. The SMG in the picture is almost certainly a shortened Suomi.

    8-) We certainly need a true gun expert here 8-)
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Not so much a Gun question but I did wonder, With Bond and
    His exploding pens and watches. Just how powerful could
    such a device be ?
    I know in films, they would take out half a building, but in
    Reality would it just take someone's had off ?

    Given the situation in the world, I'll understand if this is considered
    too controversial a question ( don't want to give tips to any thugs )
    If any of the Mods want to delete it.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,704MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:
    Asp9mm wrote:
    SOE used what they could get their hands on. Italian guns were used widely, especially Berettas, including the .25. It's safe to assume Fleming handled that particular weapon whilst liaising with 64 Baker St. However the SMG Manus used wasn't a Beretta. The SMG in the picture is almost certainly a shortened Suomi.

    8-) We certainly need a true gun expert here 8-)

    I've come to the conclution (being a true fake gun expert) that the SMG is a version of the Suomi produced by Sweden. It was uesd by Swedish forces during WWII (Sweden was of cource neutral) and in the cold war. Swedish-trained "police" forces (light infantry in all but name) also used this version of the Suomi during WWII. The "police" forces was manned by young male refugees from Norway who feared getting press-ganged into Nazi forces or students who were expelled from univerity for being anti-German. Those men were of cource sympathetic to the resistance and it's easy to imagine how some of those SMG's ended up with the resistance and SOE.
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    Not so much a Gun question but I did wonder, With Bond and
    His exploding pens and watches. Just how powerful could
    such a device be ?
    I know in films, they would take out half a building, but in
    Reality would it just take someone's had off ?

    Given the situation in the world, I'll understand if this is considered
    too controversial a question ( don't want to give tips to any thugs )
    If any of the Mods want to delete it.
    What a ponderous mind you have, not catching any planes any time soon I hope?
    I can offer a sort of answer, assuming you'd be using a plastic explosive such as petn or its more notable relative semtex (which contains petn) the amount you can pack in a pen or watch wouldn't provide a big blast also given space needed for a detonating charge and power source. Some work was done into turning these new electronic cigarettes into small explosive devices the upshot being you would lose a hand or most of your face whilst hearing a very loud pop. Not enough bang to take out a wall, think in terms of a claymore without the bbs which is much bigger therefore more powerfull but still really only classed as an anti personel mine. Any good for you tp?
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Yes, very interesting {[] my mind wanders all over the place at times. :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    I have some knowledge but quite limited in ths field, I'm sure a more senior member will be along with a better answer for you soon.
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
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