I think it will pass particularly after the terrorist attack. When the names of the dead we're read it was noted who was from Catalonia. That was very powerful..
I think there was an unofficial vote some years ago,
Which gave an 80% independence success rate.
Spain wants to keep control as it's one of the major
Areas for Spanish industry.
Although given the example over Brexit, many will
Demand a second vote ....... If unhappy with the
First
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I would be very surprised if they vote no to independence. The questions are if the referendum will lead to. Independence and if it's good for Catalonia. Other countries with seperatist regions (and there are many) are all hoping it will be a failure.
BTW: When Norway voted on independence from Sweden in 1905 only 189 people voted no
So far 460 people have been injured by the police in Catalonia. The referendum on independence from Spain has been judged inconstitutional and illegal by their Supreme Court, but this is too brutal and will probably make the Catalonians more intent on independence.
The Scottish referendum doesn't look that bad now, does it? :v
I'd be expecting some reprisals from the basque separatists! My friend married a girl from logrono in rioja, she had utmost contempt for the Spanish government, I'd think most in that region would want devolution.
It was either that.....or the priesthood
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,689MI6 Agent
I think there was an unofficial vote some years ago,
Which gave an 80% independence success rate.
Spain wants to keep control as it's one of the major
Areas for Spanish industry.
Although given the example over Brexit, many will
Demand a second vote ....... If unhappy with the
First
Spain quite understandably wants to hold onto Catalonia as it accounts for 20% of its total tax revenue. Unsurprisingly, Nicola Sturgeon supports Catalonia. Never saw that coming. But as a unionist in NI, I can say generally my sympathies never lie with those seeking to break away from a state. The case of Catalonian is no different for me, plus there is a clause against any independence referendum in the Spanish constitutional and you either respect constitutional law or you don't. I, for one, do. What is this obsession with breaking away from a bigger country or state and thinking things will suddenly be better? It must be some sort of "the grass is greener" kind of stuff. I don't get it myself, apart from Brexit which I voted for and still want.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
I just saw on TV what happened today. Guarda Civil breaking down doors to get to voting stations, pulling women by the hair to throw them out, using club to beat non-violent voters and protesters.
I never expected the Guarda Civil and the Spanish government to be this brutal and stupid. It will take years for Catalonians to trust and respect the government again, perhaps the region is lost forever for Spain.
I just saw on TV what happened today. Guarda Civil breaking down doors to get to voting stations, pulling women by the hair to throw them out, using club to beat non-violent voters and protesters.
I never expected the Guarda Civil and the Spanish government to be this brutal and stupid. It will take years for Catalonians to trust and respect the government again, perhaps the region is lost forever for Spain.
Its truly shocking, the kurds and Iraq managed a more civil vote. whether we understand their reasons or not is what's happening in Spain democratic? Surely their needs to be some form of moderation.
I fear EU won't react. Countries like France, Italy, Belgium and others have their own seperatist regions and they don't want to encourage them.
Sadly I think your right, in any event the Eu is powerless to intervene with what's happening in Spain, there is a momentum of protest and a whiff of change in the air these days.
Spain offered the Catalonians more autonomy within Spain, like the Basques have. Spain also promised they could keep more of their tax money within the region. This seems smart.
This is what Spain should have done today: Since the Supreme Court says the referendum is unconstitutional, it's basically a non-binding poll. They should have treated the referendum as such.
Instead Spain ordered the police to attack voting stations, beat up protesters and jail separatist politicians for a few hours (making them local heroes)
Spain offered the Catalonians more autonomy within Spain, like the Basques have. Spain also promised they could keep more of their tax money within the region. This seems smart.
This is what Spain should have done today: Since the Supreme Court says the referendum is unconstitutional, it's basically a non-binding poll. They should have treated the referendum as such.
Instead Spain ordered the police to attack voting stations, beat up protesters and jail separatist politicians for a few hours (making them local heroes)
Yes they say this vote is not legal but I can never see people who attempt to exercise a vote being treated in this way. It is a sad day for Europe I think. As you say this vote should have been treated as an opinion poll by the government and they should have tried to avoid their heavy handed actions.
Donald & Kim are working presently on a plan to make all our petty political problems go away. If it works, we will all face a bright new & exciting future....
Seems so far, The EU is being very quiet over the
Heavy handed policing on the recent referendum
In Spain. Civilians of a modern European country
Being beaten off the streets. If this was in an Arab
Country, they'd be issuing statements of outrage.
I think this one act will bring back their own
Home grown terrorist groups.
They could have let it go ahead and simply refused
To accept the result of an illegal vote.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Back on the wild west side of the pond we just had the worst mass shooting in history in Las Vegas last night. 64 year old white male killed 50, with hundreds injured. Gotta love our access to automatic weapons here, eh? X-(
Seems so far, The EU is being very quiet over the
Heavy handed policing on the recent referendum
In Spain. Civilians of a modern European country
Being beaten off the streets. If this was in an Arab
Country, they'd be issuing statements of outrage.
I think this one act will bring back their own
Home grown terrorist groups.
They could have let it go ahead and simply refused
To accept the result of an illegal vote.
I think from seeing the television news that the Catalan leaders are being shown the best and restrained side in this issue. This will have very far to run now. I do not think that the Spanish government can keep this under their control because what they did was wrong. I think another vote will take place at some time to defy the Spanish and many more people will have the motivation to join in with this just because of the way the Spanish reacted. I think the Spanish have given without knowing the best gift they could to the Catalans and their campaign for their own state.
The Catalan president has said there will be a declaration of independence soon. I don't know much about this issue, but it looks to me like both sides are overreacting to events. I hope they all find a good, non-violent solution.
I find it remarkable that US conservatives demand respect for the current president - someone who fails to tribute ANY respect to everyone who slightly disagrees with him...
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
People who are in the know (but don't really know) say this year's Nobel Peace Prize will be awarded the Iran nuclear deal. I can't wait for Trump's Twitter binge )
I think it is very strange that not much has been said against the spanish police violence. Yes this vote was illegal as the Spanish goverment says, but is that to then justify violence against ordinary people who took part in the vote? I fear that peoples are too obsessed with personality of politicians and trying to score points which are in many times not even relevent and miss things which they should be really paying attention to. Donald Trump bla bla while right under the nose violence is being used against people who are voting! I think every one in europe should be uneasy about this violence, if you are not careful it will come to you.
I am only making my point, i am not for or against Trump. All i keep in my mind is that he was elected in a free vote. I think because peoples in the west are so used to this they cannot realise what it is like to not have this right. This is good but what happens in Spain now must be a warning to us all that this freedom can be taken away more quickly than you can ever imagine if you do nothing to defend it.
Comments
Which gave an 80% independence success rate.
Spain wants to keep control as it's one of the major
Areas for Spanish industry.
Although given the example over Brexit, many will
Demand a second vote ....... If unhappy with the
First
BTW: When Norway voted on independence from Sweden in 1905 only 189 people voted no
The Scottish referendum doesn't look that bad now, does it? :v
Spain quite understandably wants to hold onto Catalonia as it accounts for 20% of its total tax revenue. Unsurprisingly, Nicola Sturgeon supports Catalonia. Never saw that coming. But as a unionist in NI, I can say generally my sympathies never lie with those seeking to break away from a state. The case of Catalonian is no different for me, plus there is a clause against any independence referendum in the Spanish constitutional and you either respect constitutional law or you don't. I, for one, do. What is this obsession with breaking away from a bigger country or state and thinking things will suddenly be better? It must be some sort of "the grass is greener" kind of stuff. I don't get it myself, apart from Brexit which I voted for and still want.
I never expected the Guarda Civil and the Spanish government to be this brutal and stupid. It will take years for Catalonians to trust and respect the government again, perhaps the region is lost forever for Spain.
This is what Spain should have done today: Since the Supreme Court says the referendum is unconstitutional, it's basically a non-binding poll. They should have treated the referendum as such.
Instead Spain ordered the police to attack voting stations, beat up protesters and jail separatist politicians for a few hours (making them local heroes)
Yes they say this vote is not legal but I can never see people who attempt to exercise a vote being treated in this way. It is a sad day for Europe I think. As you say this vote should have been treated as an opinion poll by the government and they should have tried to avoid their heavy handed actions.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Heavy handed policing on the recent referendum
In Spain. Civilians of a modern European country
Being beaten off the streets. If this was in an Arab
Country, they'd be issuing statements of outrage.
I think this one act will bring back their own
Home grown terrorist groups.
They could have let it go ahead and simply refused
To accept the result of an illegal vote.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I think from seeing the television news that the Catalan leaders are being shown the best and restrained side in this issue. This will have very far to run now. I do not think that the Spanish government can keep this under their control because what they did was wrong. I think another vote will take place at some time to defy the Spanish and many more people will have the motivation to join in with this just because of the way the Spanish reacted. I think the Spanish have given without knowing the best gift they could to the Catalans and their campaign for their own state.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Good. Belt it up them!
I am only making my point, i am not for or against Trump. All i keep in my mind is that he was elected in a free vote. I think because peoples in the west are so used to this they cannot realise what it is like to not have this right. This is good but what happens in Spain now must be a warning to us all that this freedom can be taken away more quickly than you can ever imagine if you do nothing to defend it.