What will your passion become in case of complete failure by Amazon?
SeanIsTheOnlyOne
Posts: 723MI6 Agent
I'll start with my own uncle case, which is interesting because it's the typical example of a 'lost' aficionado. He's 81 now, and he's been a massive fan from 1962 to 1989 (Lazenby and OHMSS at the top). He often reminds me and my cousins he wasn't particularly thrilled by Bond's return in 1995. Brosnan getting the gig was a choice he deeply disliked back then, and when GE came out, he said he was not at ease with all this computer staff and he didn't manage to identify with this modern version of the character.
When TND came out, the experience was even worse and from this moment, he never went to a single Bond film (he didn't even know the ending of NTTD until a few months ago). He keeps reading Fleming and watching OHMSS from time to time, but for the rest, absolutely nothing. The passion and the excitement are long gone and we barely talk about Bond with him.
Just after the announcement, I couldn't prevent myself from thinking of my complete lost of interest in Star Wars, a franchise I've always been in love with - not as much as Bond but it has a special place in my heart - and I made the link with my uncle and how he became a 'ghost' within the fandom.
Although I really hope this new era will bring us joy, let's assume the opposite. If the Bond franchise becomes something you don't find your soul in anymore, do you think you'll still keep the flame alive and how?
Comments
It's difficult to keep a strong interest going for many years. I've been a Bond fan since the 60s (I'm a good bit younger than your uncle though) and yes, there have been times when that interest wavers especially during the Daniel Craig error, sorry, era. It always returns, though, with patience and a little "holiday" following a different interest (eg, Universal and Hammer horror movies).
@Barbel I see what you mean. But as terrible as the Craig era may appear to you, do you feel like it destroyed your passion?
I ask you that because for Star Wars, I dislike the 'new' movies so much that it has become very difficult, not to say impossible, to watch the original trilogy again, something I couldn't even imagine a decade ago. I can't help thinking about what happens to those wonderful characters in the sequels, and it just spoils me the whole story.
Do you fear the same kind of thing with Bond? A legacy totally destroyed and the impossibility to watch the old movies you love because they now belong to a spoilt franchise? And as a consequence, the sadness of nostalgia making you frustrated to a level you simply wish you never became a fan?
I hated the Craig movies. They were all one and done for me and I actively avoid them. They did not however kill my passion for Bond; if anything they helped to appreciate the older ones more and I will still regularly go back to them. It also helped that the Craig flicks were an explicit reboot, serving to better isolate them from the prior films.
Bond also isn't the only franchise where I've experienced this. I'm a long time Star Trek fan but hate the new shows so I just ignore them. I love Alien and Aliens but hated the subsequent movies so I'll just watch the ones I like and ignore the rest. Star Wars is all over the map; I'll give it a try, go back to what I like and pass on the rest.
Sooner or later everything produces a stinker. It's unpleasant but you just have to accept it, move on and try not to let it ruin the good stuff for you. And like Barbel says, it also helps to move on to something else for a while and circle back down the road.
It didn't destroy my passion. I've been on here for all of it, posting away happily. And no, not liking, say, SP doesn't stop me enjoying, say, TB. And no, I never wish I hadn't become a fan. If I didn't have a deep love for James Bond (movies/books/music) then I wouldn't have been able to write my Imaginary Conversations.
I’ll always be a Bond fan. I love most of the films and most of the books (Gardner really has a lot to offer for those who have never dabbled). They can’t take it from me.
Naturally it helps if you're invested in other areas than just the film series. If they stopped releasing good Bond films - and they'd have to be really poor, because I still love the generally weaker entries - then at least I'd still have all the novels, games, comics, merch hunting and prop making to enjoy for the rest of my life. Every day there's something exciting to look forward to. I've been a fan for 30 years now, and had a few breaks here and there. And just like JB always returns, so do I. I'm in this for the long haul.
My passion for what I love cannot be soured by a poor ending.... of anything! The recent Star Wars movies sucked (really badly), but I still love the original trilogy. Blade Runner 2049 was lame (for ME), but Blade Runner is still my second favourite movie of all time. Superman IV was INCREDIBLY lame, But Superman: The Movie is still my favourite movie of all time. I really can't like the last Indiana Jones movie much, but I revisit the first four often. I hate Star Trek Generations intensely, but I still love all that came before it (The original 60's TV series is my very heart & soul).
Which brings me to Bond. Did Moonraker kill my interest in Bond? No. It was just a large misstep IMO. Did No Time To Die (the worst Bond movie I could have imagined) sour me on Bond? Not a bit of it. Though my intense interest in new Bond movies has diminished since the end of the 20th Century, I still really enjoyed some (DAD, QOS, SP), but my favourites will always be part of me, and will always be enjoyed. I don't understand how bad movies can affect one's love for good (or great) ones...
If this is the end of Bond movies (or at least, the end of decently made ones), I am okay with that. I have TWENTY FOUR Bond movies to have fun with before I dirt nap (I include NSNA in there, as much as some dislike it).
#1.TLD 2.LTK 3.TND 4.GF 5.YOLT 6.DAF 7.TMWTGG 8.TWINE 9.DN 10.SP
NTTD definitely dampened my enthusiasm for Bond and it will be a while before that enthusiasm returns. However, I'm looking at the Amazon Era almost the same way I look at the continuation novels. No continuation novel can ever take anything away from the Fleming books. They are classics. I have read every one numerous times and nothing will detract from my love of them. As for what came later, only Fleming's work is canon and therefore the continuation books don't need to be read. I have read all of the continuation James Bond books (except Raymond Benson's) and of the associated novels, only SilverFin and Double or Nothing. If something catches my eye or imagination, I've read it. Some I have enjoyed, some I've struggled to finish. This is my take on what Amazon produces. For me, it won't be canon. I may watch something if it appeals to me, but I've always got the real EON productions to return to when I need a genuine Bond hit and going forward nothing can ever take anything away from the EON productions. Hopefully Amazon will produce something that I enjoy - or better still, love - but I'm beyond caring at this point. I will become an EON luddite, retreat into my Bond lair, and live on Connery-to-(some of)-Craig.
Just like with the first six Star Wars, three Infiana Jones, two Predator, two Alien films, and the Lord of the Rings trilogy, i will always love Bond. We will always have every film up until now (and of course books, just like Tokien's work).
I just hated nttd, because they killed off Bond, but even that will be infinitely better than whatever amazon regurgitates.
And let's push it further. What if James Bond becomes Amazon's Jane Bond for instance, or any other female first name they can use?
Here, I'm not talking about bad movies still featuring our beloved character, but something really disturbing imo. When I see many pics/trailers made with AI with the title: 'Margot Robbie as Jane Bond', I guess those are people who genuinely don't care about James Bond.
Do you think Amazon can go so far given what we know from the Wall Street Journal?
I think we should give Amazon a chance to prove themselves (or disapoint us) before we decide they'll destroy Bond.
Actually my initial point was to underline how quickly the passion can disappear when some decisions become too painful to be considered just as another creative choice which has no real impact on the legacy of the myth.
The fact Michael G. Wilson was the only one to use the name 'James Bond' in the announcement of last week striked me a lot. Mike Hopkins talked about the next chapter of 'the legend 007', which can perfectly be seen as the fact the number is much more important to Amazon than the name. So basically, we have no clue James Bond will ever return. After all, didn't the series Elementary turn Dr. John Watson into a female Dr. Joan Watson played by Lucy Liu?
If you had to estimate a probability from everything you heard, saw and read over the last three years, what would it be? Do you think Amazon hiring an actress as 'Jane Bond 007' is certain, very likely, likely, unlikely, very unlikely, impossible?
I'd say very unlikely.
While with the keepers of the flame, it would have been impossible. Broccoli confirmed it's an exercise she was not interested in, and it's not a surprise. She knows the 'value' of Bond and what the character means to the audience.
Are Mike Hopkins, Jennifer Salke and the worrying executives they work with aware of the piece of art they've just received? I'm afraid the WSJ was significant enough about that.
Having said that, you're completely right. There's no point in judging them before we see how they handle such a legacy, but I can understand why many people are skeptical, not to say defeatist.
Of course if they makes Bond a woman, I'll happily ... angrily join you in all sorts of negativity against Amazon. 👍️
I get that people are truly invested in Bond. I am too. But there’s a persistent tone here now: “Barbara Broccoli betrayed everything good about the 007 franchise, especially by killing him off in NTTD! Wait, she’s leaving? How can Bond continue without her?” 😂
I speak for myself but I never thought she destroyed the franchise because of Bond's death in NTTD. The nine films she produced from 1995 to 2021 were faithful to Cubby's legacy, and although I didn't enjoy some of them plotwise, there's no betrayal here.
Having said that, am I really concerned about what Amazon is going to do with the character? Absolutely.
For the record I am a big fan of the Craig films.
My comment was more about fandom. I always think about how Star Wars fans were so upset about Solo that they scared Disney into a dropping the franchise for years. And then so disappointed by the Last Jedi (which I mostly loved) that Disney felt it had to overcompensate with fan service by making the truly lousy Rise of Skywalker.
How old was your uncle when GE came out?
Some people reach a certain age and stop accepting new things.
It’s like their cupboard is full.
Well, the count is simple considering GE came out almost thirty years ago. He was in his early fifties.
I asked him if he was fed up back then, and apparently he really wanted to keep the flame. He thought, after the Cold War, EON would go back to the 50s and create new stories using the atsmosphere of Fleming's novels. Bond getting into the 90s was something he absolutely didn't want to see, but he wasn't bored. He was mainly frustrated by the orientation of the franchise (and the choice of Brosnan didn't help at all).
I'm ambivalent, as NTTD bookended the films for me. Call me a fair weather fan, but aren't fans the whole reason for Bond's success to begin with?
If Amazon completely f ... fumbles the Bond series the first 25 movies along with the novels will remain may passion.
Some very interesting points made and of course it's all subjective.
I'll use the example of Dr Who. I think it's been absolutely dire for many years now, but I still enjoy the 'classic' era. Some of the Ecclestone, Tennant, Smith, Capaldi, episodes have been alright, good even, but the Whittaker, Gatwa era has been (for me) diabolical (and NO, that's not because the Doctor was a woman or black) - I just don't like their interpretation of the character and the stories and production, and of course the forced agenda rammed down one's throat in recent years.
I didn't enjoy Indy and the Crystal Skull, but adore the first three. I think I'm in a minority in that I actually thought Indy and the Dial of Destiny was an improvement on Crystal Skull, so as I say, it's all subjective..
Regarding Bond, as others have said, we still have all the classic movies. My passion for these and Fleming will never die.
I'll always love my version of Bond, Indy, Superman, Star Wars, Dr Who, Sherlock Holmes, and will take or leave (no doubt in mixed dosage), whatever comes next..
Do you mean fumble it like DAD? I’m exaggerating my dislike for that film, but it put me off Bond entirely until I began getting a sense, pre-release, that CR was going to be special. What’s clear from these boards is that we all look for different things from a Bond film. Personally, I could accept a lot if they shot on location, used practical effects, and the action was next level (I’m thinking of the Wick quartet or “Extraction”). Notice I didn’t say Bond must be sent on a mission or more moments of humor or no Scooby gang. What’s unimportant to me may be how you define success and vice versa. Amazon absolutely bungled the Rings of Power but they did fine with Reacher (not good but fine). I’m not a Gaiman fan (even less so now) but lots of people enjoyed “Good Omens.” I feel there is insufficient data with Amazon to expect them to make a genuine lousy movie. Maybe they will, but maybe they’ll make a good film. Fan boards invented doomscrolling so I get the nervousness and pessimism. But as for me, I will withhold judgement on Pascal and Herman a while longer; ultimately, until I see the finished product.
Even if the new movies stink, I'll still watch them. With the large gaps in between movies now, I'll just keep rewatching the existing movies. The passion will never go away.
I'm not sure if my interest in Bond films is quite a passion. I've never really thought about how much I'm invested in that regard. I do read the books now and again and own most of them. The same for the films. Of those, there are maybe 10 that I really get the urge to watch. The rest I might watch if they're on TV (yes, I'm old enough to actually tune in to something rather than merely stream it).
Here's the thing: After 50 years of Bond, the Connery/Lazenby era remains the pinnacle. There have been some good ones after that -- and Casino Royale was hands down the best Bond film since the Connery/Lazenby era -- but I never feel the same sense of thrill, wonder, and atmosphere in those Bond films as I do the classics. Those were made at the right time, when the film industry was pretty much at its peak artistically. Yes, movies that came out after are often lauded with more praise and awards and make more money, but they just don't do it for me. Something is always missing. Something is always off.
So, I say all this to put into perspective if Amazon screws up the Bond movies. Since pretty much everything after the Connery/Lazenby era has not grabbed me the way those films have, if Amazon offers nothing better, it probably won't affect me much. No, I won't necessarily watch the films multiples times, but I will likely watch them at least once. Maybe. Probably.
I find myself in a similar position with the various Star Trek series now out. I'm a big fan of the original series (and even then, about half the episodes are disposable) and some of the films. After that, it never really felt like Star Trek, even if the name was in it. The more recent incarnations are interesting in that they brought back some flavorings of the original series, like the uniforms being more retro, but not the rest. The storytelling is awful. The characterizations, even of characters we've known before, are unconvincing. The special effects are good and they've obviously upped the action quotient, but the scripts are dumb and derivative. It's all just unconvincing. So, I don't watch.
I'll likely be in a similar frame of mind with Bond. I'll watch at least the first one to see how it is. If it's good, I'll definitely watch the rest. If not, maybe I will, maybe I won't. My sensibility might be tempered by how good that first one is. Similarly, I got excited about Bond again after Casino Royale. That movie came out of the gate determined to be a real bona fide film and not merely another formulaic installment in the series. It promised so much. The others did not deliver what was promised, at least not evenly. So, while I can watch Casino Royale now and again because it was well done, I don't find myself gravitating toward the other Craig films. I'd rather watch Connery. Amazon might do the same.
Interesting feedback. I also think the Connery/Lazenby decade is a genuine peak, but there are other movies I enjoy a lot (TSWLM, FYEO, TLD, LTK, CR), which makes me believe the concept of era/period is not as important as Amazon's potential to deliver a decent movie, faithful to the spirit and the legacy of EON.
If Bond 26 appears to be a banger or at least a very satisfying James Bond adventure, I will probably be more indulgent if both Bond 27 and Bond 28 turn out to be massive disappointments. The most important thing for me remains the fact, within the sample of films to come, there are some good picks making me happy enough to consider the flame is still there, otherwise nostalgia would win, which is exactly what I don't want.
I feel a lot like that, too. Even a mediocre Bond film is pretty good, but when they hit it out of the park, I can watch them over and over.
I think the chances Bond26 will be a failure goes down every time we get news. 😃
The initial topic actually deals with a personal perspective. The word failure has to be understood this way: "what will your passion become if you consider the work of Amazon as a complete failure with respect to your own approach of the franchise?'
But I'm aware the question could have been asked with EON through the evolution of the movies and the decades.