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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

I love all cakes, either Gay or Straight  ajb007/wink

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

Thunderpussy wrote:

I love all cakes, either Gay or Straight  ajb007/wink

Surely only in Northern Ireland could such a daft case arise! I was actually quite surprised by the judgment of the Supreme Court on this case as it overruled the two prior judgments. Although I am a Christian, I'm not sure that I agreed with the Ashers bakery's stance on this issue. I also think it's pretty clear that the man who wanted the cake made was merely trying his luck to see if he could prove a point and get a test case started. There have been similar cases in the US.

In the meantime, there has been a massive legal aid bill run up that the taxpayer will have to pay. It's like the appeals in the Colin Howell murder case. All for nothing, except wasting good public money that could be used in much more worthy cases. Northern Ireland has one of the highest legal aid bills in the world. I don't think there can be any winners in these types of cases, and certainly not the hard-pressed taxpayer!

Writer/Director @ The Bondologist Blog (TBB)
On Twitter: @Dragonpol 
'Like' TBB on FB: TBB Update Page
"The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

I don't think this is " good law" as it now depends on the
Religious  or political  beliefs of the  shop owner, if he'll
Take your business  and not an automatic  right of a
Customer ?

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

Thunderpussy wrote:

I don't think this is " good law" as it now depends on the
Religious  or political  beliefs of the  shop owner, if he'll
Take your business  and not an automatic  right of a
Customer ?

Yes, exactly. I think it sets a dangerous precedent. The Supreme Court made a distinction on it, of course, but still. Basically, they said it was the political message, not the customer that made Ashers discriminate. It all leaves me with little sympathy for either party involved. Such a dispute could surely have been settled without recourse to legal action and all this ridiculous amount of money being spent on it, especially other people's money!

Last edited by Silhouette Man (13th Oct 2018 13:56)

Writer/Director @ The Bondologist Blog (TBB)
On Twitter: @Dragonpol 
'Like' TBB on FB: TBB Update Page
"The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).

30

Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

Thunderpussy wrote:

I don't think this is " good law" as it now depends on the
Religious  or political  beliefs of the  shop owner, if he'll
Take your business  and not an automatic  right of a
Customer ?

Sorry to disagree but it’s the right decision.

If the customer wanted an anti-Semitic message on a cake (for example), are you saying the shop must make it? Or a pro-Nazi one?
For once, I thought common sense prevailed.

YNWA: Justice For The 96

I’m just sitting here watching the wheels go round

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

Sir Miles makes a very good point. What if a customer wanted the writing on the cake to say something truely horrible, such as supporting sexual assault or genocide?
Surely the baker should not only be allowed to deny making the cake but also be expected not to make it?
But what if the baker was a extreme muslim and a customer wanted the text "Girl Power" or  "I love jews"? Should he be allowed to say no to the cake order?

Should the cultural attitudes of the community at the time and place decide what should be allowed? Then what if the time was the 1950's and the place Alabama?
Should the authorities limit this kind of thing? That opens up all kind of problems.
Perhaps the rule of thumb should be yes to text that are positive and supportive to something or someone, but no to texts that attack or are derogatory. In that case "White and proud" would be legal/allowed, but "down with blacks" wouldn't be. This is a difficult issue.

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

I think under the law as it stands, a shop owner can put up
A sign saying " No political slogans or messages printed "
and he's covered.
Now, I as a shop owner  can refuse anything  as it goes against
My Religious/Political beliefs.
Such as .....
A certain political  party, a mixed race wedding,  another
Religion's  leaflets, serving "Travellers " or Roma gypsies   ?
I honestly think this is a get out of jail card for any bigots.
My believe  is that if you're in business, it's  to serve the
Whole population, once you start introducing exceptions
It's back to " No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs "

ajb007/biggrin It's an odd feeling for me to be on the Liberal left in a discussion

Last edited by Thunderpussy (13th Oct 2018 07:41)

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

Thunderpussy wrote:

...serving "Travellers " or Roma gypsies   ?

I’m not sure you fully understood the ruling...? And apologies for just taking a small section of your post.

It was made quite clear that they were NOT refusing to serve the people in question but that they refused to decorate the cake with that particular wording...and that’s a BIG difference.

YNWA: Justice For The 96

I’m just sitting here watching the wheels go round

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

No problem, point taken  ajb007/cheers

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

for both legal and moral reasons. I don't think you can demand from a baker that he has to put any text the customer wants on his cakes.

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/c … e-13410551
America seems to use this system too.
A cancer survivor asked to leave store.

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

If anyone wants to read the full recent Supreme Court judgment in Lee v Ashers Bakery Co. Ltd [2018] UKSC49 here is a .pdf file:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/ … dgment.pdf

Judgment Summary (video):

https://www.supremecourt.uk/watch/uksc- … gment.html

Also the Press Summary:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/ … ummary.pdf

Last edited by Silhouette Man (13th Oct 2018 19:13)

Writer/Director @ The Bondologist Blog (TBB)
On Twitter: @Dragonpol 
'Like' TBB on FB: TBB Update Page
"The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

Thunderpussy wrote:

No problem, point taken  ajb007/cheers

Thanks  ajb007/martini

YNWA: Justice For The 96

I’m just sitting here watching the wheels go round

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

Anyone looking for a shocking insight into the state of justice in the UK could do worse than reading The Secret Barrister. This lays bear the complete shambles that's been inflicted on us, in no small part down to the esteemed Cabinet minister Chris Grayling thanks to his time as Justice minister. Now's he's Transport minister - hence the meltdown costing billions over the summer. He's King Midas in Reverse.

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/wwe-taki … 13658.html

I wonder if Vince can just break a 10 yr contract like that , also many of the wrestlers dont want to go to SA due to the guy that was killed in SAs embassy in Istanbul