The Legal Issues (and Criminal Justice) Discussion Thread

Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
edited October 2018 in Off Topic Chat
I thought I would create a new thread on one of my interests outside of all things James Bond - the field of Law. As some of you may know I have a Masters degree in Law and from that my interest blossomed. I am sadly not a Law practitioner as yet but I retain the interest in current and historical legal issues.

So this thread is the place to discuss Legal Issues of the past or present on any area of English Law (or if you prefer US Law) and beyond.

Let's get the ball rolling...

[18 March 2016 Thread Update]


I've amended the thread title to include Criminal Justice as part of the thread so that members can give their thoughts or issue their criticisms or indeed praise of the criminal justice system in the UK. This includes the decisions of the courts in criminal cases, the penal system, criminal law legislation and case law and new proposals for reform of the criminal law by the UK Government of the day.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
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Comments

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Just to get the ball rolling ( as Indiana Jones, would say ) ;)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568475/Ten-stupidest-laws-are-named.html
    And in a light hearted manner.
    Ten Stupidest UK laws.
    1. It is illegal to die in the Houses of Parliament (27%)
    2. It is an act of treason to place a postage stamp bearing the British monarch upside-down (7%)
    3. In Liverpool, it is illegal for a woman to be topless except as a clerk in a tropical fish store (6%)
    4. Mince pies cannot be eaten on Christmas Day (5%)
    5. In Scotland, if someone knocks on your door and requires the use of your toilet, you must let them enter (4%)
    6. In the UK a pregnant woman can legally relieve herself anywhere she wants, including in a policeman's helmet (4%)
    7. The head of any dead whale found on the British coast automatically becomes the property of the King, and the tail of the Queen (3.5%)
    8. It is illegal not to tell the tax man anything you do not want him to know, but legal not to tell him information you do not mind him knowing (3%)
    9. It is illegal to enter the Houses of Parliament in a suit of armour
    10. In the city of York it is legal to murder a Scotsman within the ancient city walls, but only if he is carrying a bow and arrow (2%)
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    3. In Liverpool, it is illegal for a woman to be topless except as a clerk in a tropical fish store (6%)

    Can someone please make a list of the Liverpool tropical fish stores so that I am having this handy on my next visit? :D
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    :))
    I'm just worried for Barbel if he ever visits York ! :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • welshboy78welshboy78 Posts: 10,292MI6 Agent
    So what would REALLY happen if number 10 was carried out? :D
    Instagram - bondclothes007
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    There'd probably be a fine of some sort. :p
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Thunderbird 2Thunderbird 2 East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,774MI6 Agent
    :))
    I'm just worried for Barbel if he ever visits York ! :D

    Thanks very much Pussy - what about me?! :(
    This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I never knew you were Scottish TB2. ;)
    I always thought it was only Sir Sean, Barbel and Alec Salmond ..... As
    You never see them together ? :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Thunderbird 2Thunderbird 2 East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,774MI6 Agent
    edited March 2016
    I knew you weren't paying attention in the Skyfall thread about Bond and M-Manf's long journey driving to Skyfall Lodge. Mind you, you were opening The SABS at that time. Along with the beer, wine, sherry, scotch, gin, vodka and ginger raspberry.

    Yes, I lived near the A9 for a few years at my Grandparents house in Pitlochry. Gran, Grandad and Mum, (may they rest in peace) were all big Bond fans, esp my Grandad. Originally from a spot almost as remote as Bonds family home further North East.

    Back to the point - considering my Dad is a train fanatic and the National Railway Museum is in York, I'm stuffed! :o
    This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    :)) Sorry TB2, wasn't paying attention.
    ( I'b be in the cellars of the SBS, for some correction later ..... No pressure ) ;)
    I often wondered if any policeman has been asked by a pregnant lady to
    Use his hat in an emergency ? ;)
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • OrnithologistOrnithologist BerlinPosts: 583MI6 Agent
    edited December 2015
    Fellow lawyer here. Can't contribute much on the subject of English law, but heard about a case once (probably an urban legend) of a guy who filed a claim against Oxford (or Cambridge) university because according to some medieval law they had to provide him with two pints of beer per day. Their response was that they would certainly fulfill his request for beer delivery retroactively, under the condition that he served his time in the dungeon for attending lectures unarmed...

    Always liked that one, legend or not {[]
    "I'm afraid I'm a complicated woman. "
    "- That is something to be afraid of."
  • stagstag Posts: 2,083MI6 Agent
    I hope this in keeping with the spirit of the thread but a short piece on UK law enforcement agencies. The usual territorial & BTP forces there are many 'private (non home office regulated) police' services. These are usually Parks or Ports Police. These differ insofar as they are established under certain laws which allow private companies to employ fully attested constables in a specific role - policing Dover port for example. Although enjoying full police powers officers of these units can only excersise those powers within the precints of their immedaite area of responsibility, for example within the port of Dover & one mile beyond, thereafter they have usual civilian powers off arrest only. Many local authorities used to employ Market Police, again attested constables & while some vestiges of this remain (Birmingham Markets Police) non of these forces have any police powers. There are also Cathedral police (again non attested). Oxford & Cambridge universities also have their own attested constables.

    Here's some reading.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_agencies_in_the_United_Kingdom#Miscellaneous_police_forces
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    edited December 2015
    Link to an interesting article from the Oxford Royale Academy:

    "The Massively Outdated Offences Against the Person Act 1861 Shows How Well the Common Law System Works"

    https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/offences-against-the-person-act-1861-needs-reform.html
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • stagstag Posts: 2,083MI6 Agent
    Birmingham (UK) Markets 'Police'


    marketpolice_2.jpg


    Market_Police.jpg

    A legal anomaly here? This 'force' was established under some now defunct bylaw which allowed city councils to employ their own police. (Similar bylaws remain in force within some London boroughs & they exercise this by having their own parks police) The markets police were attested as constables with police powers within the precincts of the city markets & perhaps the area immediately surrounding those same markets. However I believe those powers were rescinded sometime in the 1970s & as it stands they are simply security officers with no special powers. That the name 'Markets Police' was allowed to carry on is a mystery to me as - under the correct circumstances - they could be accused of impersonating police officers.
  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,988Quartermasters
    2015 has been a year of resolving legal issues for me---most prominently a divorce; for a couple of years full ownership of my fictional character, Oscar Jade, and revenue from existing and future works featuring him, was up in the air, with my ex-wife angling for a 50% share :#

    I told my ex that if such a condition were made a part of the final marital settlement, she would have accomplished what the New York mob tried and failed to do in "Blood & Ashes": killing him off :o

    Fortunately, things have been amicably settled, and he belongs to me 100% -{
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Not wanting to go into anyone's personal life, so this is just a general statement.
    I've always been amazed at some of the payout's some people get after a marriage
    or long relationship. When they had no part in the enterprise undertaken by their
    Partner. Like Heather Mills and Paul McCartney.
    Speaking as a bloke, I think it can be a little unfair, but understand many ladies
    probably think it is a very fair system.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • welshboy78welshboy78 Posts: 10,292MI6 Agent
    Im always staggered by some of the zillionaire celebs child support maintenance - hundred grand a month etc

    Thats a lot of iPads / Nintendos lol
    Instagram - bondclothes007
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    edited March 2016
    Interesting reading; many famous cases from English law feature:

    https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/interesting-legal-cases.html
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    The UK Supreme Court overrules two previous precedents (one from thirty years ago) on the "joint enterprise" rule in the law on murder:

    http://ukscblog.com/new-judgment-r-v-jogee-ruddock-v-the-queen-jamaica-2016-uksc-8/
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Ancient law :

    In ancient Rome a rapist would have his testicals crushed between two heavy marble slabs !
    ......... Seems sensible to me, they should reintroduce that. -{
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    Ancient law :

    In ancient Rome a rapist would have his testicals crushed between two heavy marble slabs !
    ......... Seems sensible to me, they should reintroduce that. -{

    Yes, and I recall that the villain General Brutus 'Brute' Clay (in his planned fascist takeover of the United States) called for the cutting off the the offending organ for the rapist too (presciently rather like Sharia law in a way) in John Gardner's last James Bond continuation novel Cold/Cold Fall (1996). That's probably why he was named Brutus then. :D
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • IanTIanT Posts: 573MI6 Agent
    Rapists and sex offenders are, in my opinion, the worst sort of criminal. A victim of murder has to suffer no more (granted the family suffer) but the victims of rape and sex offences remain emotionally destroyed and scarred for life.

    There is no punishment severe enough (within the bounds of the law) for those animals.
  • GrindelwaldGrindelwald Posts: 1,294MI6 Agent
    I'm thinking of scaring someone who ripped me off 1500$ , should I insiniuate that some of my buddies ought to pay him a visit ?

    I know for a fact that a celeb is going after this person due to autograph forgeries (he writes this on his fb)
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    The NI 'gay cake' case reaches the UK Supreme Court:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHl5JRjpX4
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I love all cakes, either Gay or Straight ;)
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    I love all cakes, either Gay or Straight ;)

    Surely only in Northern Ireland could such a daft case arise! I was actually quite surprised by the judgment of the Supreme Court on this case as it overruled the two prior judgments. Although I am a Christian, I'm not sure that I agreed with the Ashers bakery's stance on this issue. I also think it's pretty clear that the man who wanted the cake made was merely trying his luck to see if he could prove a point and get a test case started. There have been similar cases in the US.

    In the meantime, there has been a massive legal aid bill run up that the taxpayer will have to pay. It's like the appeals in the Colin Howell murder case. All for nothing, except wasting good public money that could be used in much more worthy cases. Northern Ireland has one of the highest legal aid bills in the world. I don't think there can be any winners in these types of cases, and certainly not the hard-pressed taxpayer!
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I don't think this is " good law" as it now depends on the
    Religious or political beliefs of the shop owner, if he'll
    Take your business and not an automatic right of a
    Customer ?
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,646MI6 Agent
    edited October 2018
    I don't think this is " good law" as it now depends on the
    Religious or political beliefs of the shop owner, if he'll
    Take your business and not an automatic right of a
    Customer ?

    Yes, exactly. I think it sets a dangerous precedent. The Supreme Court made a distinction on it, of course, but still. Basically, they said it was the political message, not the customer that made Ashers discriminate. It all leaves me with little sympathy for either party involved. Such a dispute could surely have been settled without recourse to legal action and all this ridiculous amount of money being spent on it, especially other people's money!
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,418Chief of Staff
    I don't think this is " good law" as it now depends on the
    Religious or political beliefs of the shop owner, if he'll
    Take your business and not an automatic right of a
    Customer ?

    Sorry to disagree but it’s the right decision.

    If the customer wanted an anti-Semitic message on a cake (for example), are you saying the shop must make it? Or a pro-Nazi one?
    For once, I thought common sense prevailed.
    YNWA 97
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,704MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles makes a very good point. What if a customer wanted the writing on the cake to say something truely horrible, such as supporting sexual assault or genocide?
    Surely the baker should not only be allowed to deny making the cake but also be expected not to make it?
    But what if the baker was a extreme muslim and a customer wanted the text "Girl Power" or "I love jews"? Should he be allowed to say no to the cake order?

    Should the cultural attitudes of the community at the time and place decide what should be allowed? Then what if the time was the 1950's and the place Alabama?
    Should the authorities limit this kind of thing? That opens up all kind of problems.
    Perhaps the rule of thumb should be yes to text that are positive and supportive to something or someone, but no to texts that attack or are derogatory. In that case "White and proud" would be legal/allowed, but "down with blacks" wouldn't be. This is a difficult issue.
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