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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

Wadsy wrote:
caractacus potts wrote:
Wadsy wrote:

* Blofeld not recognising Bond and continuing the trend from previous SPECTRE appearances. They filmed the books out of order? So what, change it.

and its not just that Blofeld personally met Bond in the last film

as early as From Russia With Love SPECTRE is employing a Bond-double for training exercises, and Klebb has a photo to show Tanya ... all of SPECTRE knew precisely what Bond looked like, possibly ever since that photographer "from The Gleaner" took the photo at the airport in Dr No!

in fact, Blofeld is in charge of that meeting at the beginning of FRwL! given his overbearing management style, I doubt he trusted Klebb with the photo but didn't choose to look at it himself. I mean what if Klebb grabbed the wrong photo from the files and orchestrated the assassination of some completely different tourist from the Jamaica airport?

Yeah... Honestly, had it not been for this major plot hole, then this would have been my favourite Bond movie of the series next to FYEO. I can get over George Lazenby's dud performance as Sir Hillary Bray, but I just don't get it. 'M' tells Bond near the beginning that Bond has had two years to run Blofeld down, the exact two years since YOLT. Yet, it's as if Blofeld doesn't recognize him, but then he does and knows all about him! James Bond did NOT know Ernst Stavro Blofeld by name until YOLT, so this is damn confusing because it does follow the continuity of the last film in some ways.

What annoys me more than anything is Peter Hunt's decision. If Sean Connery had come back do you really think he would knocked off the continuity buzz like he did here? I didn't think so.

I suppose the film makers just went, different Bond, different Blofeld, so stuff it. It is a flaw but I suppose you just have to go with it. Something like this would never fly today but I suppose blockbuster franchises were a new thing back then and they played things a bit more fast and loose

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It is pretty odd that Blofeld doesn't recognize Bond straight away, when he's posing as Sir Hilary Bray. Blofled was one for cosmetic surgery in the books and it's alluded to in OHMSS with regards to his earlobes. OHMSS even goes so far to demonstrate to the audience that the Lazenby Bond is still the same Bond from the previous films. When he's in his office, going through his things and the trinkets from past adventures and the theme songs from those movies play briefly.


I chock it up to the powers that were, playing fast and loose with the continuity. Since they were already telling the books out of order and taking creative liberty with the material. I feel the same way with Blofeld in FYEO. He shows up at the beginning, in a wheelchair and a neck brace. As if Cubby Broccoli and co, forgot Blofeld had recovered from his neck injuries sustained in OHMSS and was walking around just fine in DAF. We never saw Blofeld suffer any injuries in DAF that would leave him handicapped again. However, FYEO was calling back to OHMSS, with Tracy's grave scene. So maybe forgetting DAF at that time fit the mood.


To a lesser extent but similar. How the current powers that be have chosen/downplay everything that happened in Quantum of Solace; when it came to tying the DC movies threads together in Spectre. CR and SF were played up, but Dominic Greene and his water stealing scheme, were unsurprisingly absent.


Hehe. Choose your own canon, type of thing. I imagine.

Last edited by Doctor Know (12th Jun 2017 11:09)

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When I saw the 'For Your Eyes Only' commentary director John Glen said that he wanted to showcase OHMSS and the events that unfolded, and wanted to forget that DAF ever happened.

1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. TLD 4. FRWL 5. LTK 6. TSWLM 7. CR 8. OP  9. GF 10. DN 11. MR 12. SP 13. LALD 14. QOS 15. TB 16. SF 17. TMWTGG 18. GE 19. YOLT 20. AVTAK 21. TND 22. TWINE 23. DAF 24. DAD

1. Dalton 2. Connery 3. Moore 4. Craig 5. Lazenby  6. Brosnan

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

Wadsy wrote:

When I saw the 'For Your Eyes Only' commentary director John Glen said that he wanted to showcase OHMSS and the events that unfolded, and wanted to forget that DAF ever happened.

I've heard similar things regarding the commentary of FYEO, but I've never taken the time to listen to it myself.

Not surprising really. DAF had Blofeld dress in drag for a gag. That's something I would like to forget myself.

Last edited by Doctor Know (12th Jun 2017 11:10)

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

Doctor Know wrote:

I chock it up to the powers that were, playing fast and loose with the continuity. Since they were already telling the books out of order and taking creative liberty with the material. I feel the same way with Blofeld in FYEO. He shows up at the beginning, in a wheelchair and a neck brace. As if Cubby Broccoli and co, forgot Blofeld was had recovered from his neck injuries sustained in OHMSS and was walking around just fine in DAF. We never saw Blofeld suffer any injuries in DAF that would leave him handicapped again, but FYEO was calling back to OHMSS, with Tracy's grave scene. So maybe forgetting DAF at that time fit the mood.

I always took the neck brace in FYEO to be from injuries sustained in the bathosub.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

The titles of OHMSS show the hands of the clock going backwards so I have always taken this to mean that the film takes place before the preceding film YOLT.

Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

I think P Hunt said it was to show them resetting the
Clock back, to the older classic films ?

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

Surely all the 60's Bond's were classics? First time I heard of going back to basics was when FYEO was filmed.

Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

It's sort of a tradition for Bond to return to form, after getting too big and extravagent.


OHMSS grounded approach from YOLT's volcano base, space race/World War III conflict.

FYEO grounded apporach from Moonraker's Star Wars inspiried scifi movie, featuring James Bond.

Casino Royale's grounded approach from Die Another's Day's gene therapay nonsese, diamond space laser (on loan from DAF, haha), surfing on CGI tidal waves, invisible cars and hotels made of ice.


I think Spectre just might reverse the trend. With how low tech, low energy the whole affair was, from the MI6 cast to Spectre itself. I imagine Barbara Brocolli and others are thinking going big to get the audience and the critics energized for the next Bond film.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

Barbel wrote:

I thought the only picture [the photographer "from the Gleaner"] got was his hat?

yes youre right, I remembered this about an hour after posting
that's why she has to take a second photo at Pussfeller's restaurant, and as I recall Quarrell destroys the film, so no photo
but here's another theory: when Bond is drugged at Dr No's "mink-lined prison", Dr No comes into the room and pokes at Bond's face with his metal hands ... he's a scientist, and in the book an explicitly Mengele style scientist, using his prisoners for scientific experiments ... so perhaps while he was taking a look at the drugged out Bond, he also took photos and detailed measurements, for his own perverted purposes, and these ended up in SPECTRE's files?
now how Dr No's notes got off the island and into SPECTRE's files when the island blowed up real good and the CIA were there to clean up the pieces, that's another matter

CoolHandBond wrote:

The titles of OHMSS show the hands of the clock going backwards so I have always taken this to mean that the film takes place before the preceding film YOLT

I never thought of this, but why not? since there is no continuity after the 2nd film, who says they are actually in chronological sequence? but then how do you explain the dialog when Bond and Blofeld meet at the end of YOLT? there are other subtler issues too, Bond should be depressed or angry, yet he seems to be on holiday all through this story, and nobody ever mention's Blofeld's name

Last edited by caractacus potts (12th Jun 2017 16:16)

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Despite the plot holes, this is still one of my favorites, if not THE favorite. Just love this movie for everything, the villains, Lazenby even, the scenery, the music, the skiing.

Absolutely love this movie!

OHMSS, FRWL, DN, GF, CR, GE, SP, YOLT, TB, TSWLM, LALD, TLD, TND, FYEO, SF, MR, TMWTGG, TWINE, OP, AVTAK, DAF, LTK, QOS, DAD

1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

caractacus potts wrote:
Barbel wrote:

I thought the only picture [the photographer "from the Gleaner"] got was his hat?

yes youre right, I remembered this about an hour after posting
that's why she has to take a second photo at Pussfeller's restaurant, and as I recall Quarrell destroys the film, so no photo
but here's another theory: when Bond is drugged at Dr No's "mink-lined prison", Dr No comes into the room and pokes at Bond's face with his metal hands ... he's a scientist, and in the book an explicitly Mengele style scientist, using his prisoners for scientific experiments ... so perhaps while he was taking a look at the drugged out Bond, he also took photos and detailed measurements, for his own perverted purposes, and these ended up in SPECTRE's files?
now how Dr No's notes got off the island and into SPECTRE's files when the island blowed up real good and the CIA were there to clean up the pieces, that's another matter

CoolHandBond wrote:

The titles of OHMSS show the hands of the clock going backwards so I have always taken this to mean that the film takes place before the preceding film YOLT

I never thought of this, but why not? since there is no continuity after the 2nd film, who says they are actually in chronological sequence? but then how do you explain the dialog when Bond and Blofeld meet at the end of YOLT? there are other subtler issues too, Bond should be depressed or angry, yet he seems to be on holiday all through this story, and nobody ever mention's Blofeld's name

Any long running film or TV series will have chronological issues at some point - the OHMSS one in the Bond series is probably the most pronounced issue which is why I like my theory and so it works for me - with smaller issues I think one has to just gloss over it and enjoy the film otherwise it all starts to get a bit pedantic.

Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

Mr_Osato wrote:

Despite the plot holes, this is still one of my favorites, if not THE favorite. Just love this movie for everything, the villains, Lazenby even, the scenery, the music, the skiing.

Absolutely love this movie!

+1 THE greatest Bond ever  ajb007/martini  ajb007/martini  ajb007/martini

Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

October 1968  ajb007/bond

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

But, what if Blofeld is a code-name?  ajb007/shifty   ajb007/lol

"I'm afraid I'm a complicated woman. "
"- That is something to be afraid of."

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

Ornithologist wrote:

But, what if Blofeld is a code-name?  ajb007/shifty   ajb007/lol

In Craig’s Bond universe it is!

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

It's his Father's  Maiden  name  ajb007/tongue

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

PROS
-The straightest adaptation of any Fleming novel, which would be good whatever novel. By definition more Fleming is better.
-Based on what is arguably Fleming's finest novel, so it's especially good they adapted this one straight.
-The return to Fleming immediately follows an extremely silly deviation, I'm glad they corrected course.

-Diana Rigg
-As one cruel review put it, maybe she should have played James Bond. She's not Emma Peel here, but puts in a good actorly performance, revealing the characters' tragic background and impressive strengths with every line. Her performance is so actorly she nearly compensates for the real star's wooden performance.
-The character's part is expanded to give Rigg more to do, fortunate for all us Avengers fans, and for those of use who notice the real star of the film can't carry the responsibility.

-John Barry
This is arguably his best score. With its doomy vibe and the synthesiser textures it has almost a grindhouse feel, very different from the life-is-but -a-dream vibe of the previous film.

-Louis Armstrong's final recording.
Its hip to point out it was his Hot 5s and Hot 7s recordings from the 1920s that changed the course of music, and his later stuff was just mainstream pop music. But so what, his voice is always beautiful and Barry managed to get him in the studio one last, poignant time.

-Telly Savalas is the best Blofeld, one tuff looking gangster boss who doesn't need all those minions to kick Bond's ass. Completely different from the Dr Evil prototype who preceded him.

-note the opening: M, Q and Moneypenny are the first faces we see, before the camera cuts to show us the new fella, reassuring nervous audiences they're watching the right movie. We even see Rigg's face before we see Lazenby properly, when he is attacked by the thugs on the beach several minutes in.

-Piz Gloria
-I don't think Ken Adam was involved in this one, but Blofeld has one of the classic villains headquarters. I think its Syd Cain who was responsible this time, he had worked on Dr No and FRWL: what was the division of labour when Adam and Cain worked together?
-Spectacular scenery, this film really gives a feel for how inaccessible and dangerous this location is. This experience is probably the most dependent on location of all of the films.

-the Angels of Death, ten beautiful giggling young ladies trapped on top of that mountain next to a fireplace, just waiting for a real man to come along and break the tedium. And this when Bond is supposed to be engaged! Tracy asks "What really went on top of that mountain?" when they reunite, and Bond changes the subject, cuz it was all too traumatic to relive.

-Very psychedelic at times, especially the hypnotism sequences. I think those girls are being drugged as well as hypnotised.

-the film divides neatly into three acts, and the third act is the greatest sustained series of action sequences in all the Bond films. The machine room sequence alone is one of the most suspenseful, dangerous looking scenes ever, and then once he escapes that, the forward movement is relentless til the very last scene.
-I think that avalanche Bond has to outrun is real, those are real skiers we watch trying to outrun it, then falling.
-first great car chase in the series. And it's Tracy who is driving. Watch Rigg's face as she steers, and Lazenby is just kicking back in the passenger seat enjoying the ride. This really is Diana Rigg's big film showcase after leaving The Avengers, that just happens to feature a new James Bond actor.

- The film's relative unpopularity makes it an insider's secret, marking the difference between real Bond fans and amateurs


CONS
-Lazenby, whatever his strengths, is not a proper actor and delivers his lines with little feeling or variation. Note how few lines he actually gets in the first and final acts, the filmmakers are keeping our attention elsewhere, on Diana Rigg's performance at first and the huge action sequences at the end.

-Lazenby has to be dubbed for almost the entire second act. These are the scenes where he gets most dialog, and he suddenly seems to be delivering his lines with unexpected humour and a melodious voice. That's because it's not Lazenby talking.
Like imagine if Sean Connery had to be dubbed, or Roger Moore.

-minor plot niggle: why do Bond and Tracy decide to go skiing after barely escaping Blofeld's men? Shouldn't they be leaving the country while they still can?

-The relative failure of the experiment meant we got 12 years of comedy/fantasy films with almost no Fleming content. This is the biggest con of the film, its longterm legacy on the direction of the series.
I bet if Connery had done it, OHMSS would have been more successful, even if its tone was not what audiences had come to expect, and we might have got more straight Fleming adaptations as a result.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

Syd Cain was the Art Director on DN (uncredited, which he delighted in teasing Maurice Binder about afterwards) and was in charge of such things as props and set decoration while Ken Adam designed the sets themselves. When Adam wasn't involved (FRWL, OHMSS, LALD), Cain would design the sets.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

I reckon some of the choices for the film are a  bit off. I don't like the airy sounding punches,during the fight with Draco's man in the hotel room and the choice of sound for the horn on Bond's car, sounds like a clown's car.


The jump cuts that are used,are not needed at all! Why do a jump cut of Blofeld's goon hitting Campbell with his gun to move him on and do another one, when Blofeld drops his grenade in the bobsleigh.

Bond playing with the St Bernard, was a lovely touch

Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?"

" I don't listen to hip hop!"

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

The eager way in which the Piz Gloria lovelies are only to happy to follow Ruby's lead in hopping into bed with Bond demonstrates that the 'Me Too!' generation meant something different back then.

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

I love OHMSS but am not blind to its shortcomings. I noticed on a recent watch just how much Dialogue takes place off camera, or with George's back to us or somehow obscured. Very careful structure and camera placement protect George from too much exposure. However when he shines he really shines, and in the modern Patois truly 'nails it'
He would I'm sure have developed into a great Bond.

I don't share the evident love for Telly's Blofeld but he does not detract for me. Great physicality and surprising sensitivity, plus a great score and superb locations make it 'something of a must ' for me.

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

My criticisms:

- Though I defend Lazenby's performance here, imo he doesn't quite reach greatness.

-The switch from womanizing Bond at the clinic to Bond who wishes to commit to Tracy didn't work for me.

However, still a great film, and a 9/10 from me.

"Hostile takeovers.  Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD  2. TND  3. GF  4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

Agent Purple wrote:

-The switch from womanizing Bond at the clinic to Bond who wishes to commit to Tracy didn't work for me.

I've known a few womanizers who suddenly meet the right person and settle down. You never think they're going to get married, and they do. And then some of them get divorced.

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Re: Pros and Cons: On Her Majesty's Secret Service

I'll also say that I prob wouldn't watch this film again on it's own.  I think it works better for me only in Bondathons.

"Hostile takeovers.  Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD  2. TND  3. GF  4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later