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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Silhouette Man wrote:

I stick to my theory that it was only William Plomer that really edited TMWTGG, as was his right as Fleming's editor. I believe this can be proved by way of a letter that Kingsley Amis wrote and by the fact that the content of the novel itself is provably from Fleming's pen. I've sketched out a blog article that will look at this question in more detail and that will try to provide a definitive account of the authorship of the novel.

I look forward to your article, SM.  I don't doubt that much of the novel is from Fleming's pen, but I do question the extent of the edits that were made.  As for the statements made by Amis himself, that could be plausibly accounted for by a hypothetical ghostwriting scenario and the confidentiality stipulations of such an arrangement.  If it were only Plomer who did any editing, I wonder if he incorporated any of Amis' input, the totality of which we don't really know.  For now I can't find what I've previously read about the editing process that a Fleming book underwent, like the number of stages, who gets involved in proofing, etc., and us knowing that process would be very useful; against that, it would also be critical to know at which step Fleming left off (again, I remember reading about this, but cannot find that info for the moment), because depending on the state of the manuscript, a publisher is faced with different options on what to do with it.  Giving a decent level of credence to John Cork, we could probably rule out any drastic edit such as the addition of entire sections, but would that rule out any extensive re-wordings of awkwardly written passages?

"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

According to John Griswold in his Annotations and Chronologies, the Lilly Library does not have a manuscript for TMWTGG.

He also says that The Letters of Kingsley Amis edited by Zachary Leader contains detailed information about Amis' involvement in a letter to Tom Maschler (editorial director at Jonathan Cape) dated 5th October 1964.

Could anyone shared it??  ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/martini

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

ggl007 wrote:

According to John Griswold in his Annotations and Chronologies, the Lilly Library does not have a manuscript for TMWTGG.

He also says that The Letters of Kingsley Amis edited by Zachary Leader contains detailed information about Amis' involvement in a letter to Tom Maschler (editorial director at Jonathan Cape) dated 5th October 1964.

Could anyone shared it??  ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/martini

Thanks for confirming, I was too lazy to pull out my own  Annotations and Chronologies!  I suppose that's the letter SM is referring to and I'd also like to see a copy of it.  Not to pe-empt the contents of that letter, but in the event any ghostwriting took place, I doubt that the details of such an arrangement would have been easily divulged unless the letter's recipient was a trusted confidant of Amis.   Nonetheless, such info would be valuable to us and would serve as an indicator in whatever form.

"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....

29

Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

ggl007 wrote:

According to John Griswold in his Annotations and Chronologies, the Lilly Library does not have a manuscript for TMWTGG.

He also says that The Letters of Kingsley Amis edited by Zachary Leader contains detailed information about Amis' involvement in a letter to Tom Maschler (editorial director at Jonathan Cape) dated 5th October 1964.

Could anyone shared it??  ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/martini

This may be of interest in this context: http://jamesbond.ajb007.co.uk/a-licence-to-read-tmwtgg/

10 songs done for next CD- one more started, one being discarded.

30

Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Barbel wrote:
ggl007 wrote:

According to John Griswold in his Annotations and Chronologies, the Lilly Library does not have a manuscript for TMWTGG.

He also says that The Letters of Kingsley Amis edited by Zachary Leader contains detailed information about Amis' involvement in a letter to Tom Maschler (editorial director at Jonathan Cape) dated 5th October 1964.

Could anyone shared it??  ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/martini

This may be of interest in this context: http://jamesbond.ajb007.co.uk/a-licence-to-read-tmwtgg/

Thanks, Barbel, I can't recall coming across that article before!  Who's the AJB author?  I don't think I ever got to read the actual text of that Amis letter, but interestingly what I did read about was what was said in it, particularly the plot holes and Scaramanga's attraction to Bond!  Also interesting is how the article (logically) surmises the likelihood of Amis' ghostwriting which is also my position, though I've read counter-arguments based on that very same letter of Amis.

"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

It was written by the distinguished scaramanga1, and he covered the whole series- more details below.

http://jamesbond.ajb007.co.uk/licencetoread/
http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/13716/the … ion-topic/

10 songs done for next CD- one more started, one being discarded.

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Nice to see that the Licence to Read series is getting looked at again. I worked with Scaramanga1 on the last five articles in the series, co-authoring them with him which was great fun. The insights offered up by the Kingsley Amis letters was an area of Bond lore that I had never looked into before so the article was an enjoyable learning experience.

Golrush 007 Fan Art - http://007fanart.wordpress.com/

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Then my apologies for not crediting you above, Golrush007. The author credit is blank, as you can see.

10 songs done for next CD- one more started, one being discarded.

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

No problem Barbel, I'm grateful to you for posting the link. It's years since I last looked at the articles. It's been fun to look back at them.  ajb007/wink

Golrush 007 Fan Art - http://007fanart.wordpress.com/

35

Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Barbel wrote:
ggl007 wrote:

According to John Griswold in his Annotations and Chronologies, the Lilly Library does not have a manuscript for TMWTGG.

He also says that The Letters of Kingsley Amis edited by Zachary Leader contains detailed information about Amis' involvement in a letter to Tom Maschler (editorial director at Jonathan Cape) dated 5th October 1964.

Could anyone shared it??  ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/martini

This may be of interest in this context: http://jamesbond.ajb007.co.uk/a-licence-to-read-tmwtgg/

Thanks a lot, Barbel!
Although the letter doesn't seem to clear much about Amis' involvement...  ajb007/crap

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Silhouette Man wrote:

I'm researching (and writing) something on Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun and I was wondering if anyone else had heard the rumour that it was supposedly Fleming's 15th novel finished after his death?

Has anyone else ever read this (provably false) rumour anywhere just out of interest?

If you can remember where you read it, that would be great too!

Thanks,

SM.  ajb007/smile  ajb007/martini

The only thing I have heard of was the scrapbook that was bought by Fleming estate.

"And if I told you that I'm from the Ministry of Defence?" James Bond  - The Property of a Lady

37

Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

In case anyone hasn't read about this on the other forums, the rumor of Amis completing TMWTGG has just received a stake through the heart.

On December 13th Sotheby auctioned off a corrected typescript of The Man With the Golden Gun for £65,000. As shown in the sample images (http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/eca … t.166.html), the typescript contains 80 pages bearing Fleming's handwritten revisions. We now know that Fleming added the last two lines of the novel after completing the draft and having it typed up. Those lines are "At the same time, he knew, deep down, that love from Mary Goodnight, or from any other woman, was not enough for him. It would be like taking 'a room with a view'. For James Bond, the same view would always pall."

They are the last lines Fleming ever wrote about James Bond. And they are clearly in Fleming's handwriting, and refute the idea that Kingsley Amis wrote or rewrote the book. We now have undeniable proof that the Fleming had finished a complete draft and was hand-correcting it before his death. Sotheby's also notes the presence of "a single typescript page of suggested corrections by Kingsley Amis that were later adopted in proof." That is likely the extent of Amis's involvement with the manuscript. Case closed.

All that remains to be voiced is the hope that whoever bought this manuscript will allow researchers and scholars to access it and learn how much more Fleming added to the book after drafting it.

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

ajb007/cheers   Thank you, Revelator!

10 songs done for next CD- one more started, one being discarded.

39

Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Revelator wrote:

In case anyone hasn't read about this on the other forums, the rumor of Amis completing TMWTGG has just received a stake through the heart.

On December 13th Sotheby auctioned off a corrected typescript of The Man With the Golden Gun for £65,000. As shown in the sample images (http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/eca … t.166.html), the typescript contains 80 pages bearing Fleming's handwritten revisions. We now know that Fleming added the last two lines of the novel after completing the draft and having it typed up. Those lines are "At the same time, he knew, deep down, that love from Mary Goodnight, or from any other woman, was not enough for him. It would be like taking 'a room with a view'. For James Bond, the same view would always pall."

They are the last lines Fleming ever wrote about James Bond. And they are clearly in Fleming's handwriting, and refute the idea that Kingsley Amis wrote or rewrote the book. We now have undeniable proof that the Fleming had finished a complete draft and was hand-correcting it before his death. Sotheby's also notes the presence of "a single typescript page of suggested corrections by Kingsley Amis that were later adopted in proof." That is likely the extent of Amis's involvement with the manuscript. Case closed.

All that remains to be voiced is the hope that whoever bought this manuscript will allow researchers and scholars to access it and learn how much more Fleming added to the book after drafting it.

Thanks for posting, Revelator.  In short of your wish for expert analysis (a personal desire I share for all of us who are intrigued by the Amis TMWTGG conundrum), do you think this specific typescript + Flemings handwritten corrections = the final, published version of TMWTGG?  By “stake in the heart,” it sounds conclusive but I would love to one day see even a summary from an authoritative analysis of the manuscript.

Regarding your mirror post on the CBN Fleming forum, careful about the forum moderator, Dustin, because he’ll trash any dissenting opinion and if you dare to respond in kind, he’ll suspend your account…not fair in the slightest.  The fact that he's actually allowed to moderate there while bullying others is a reflection on the quality of that forum, one where you can literally hear virtual crickets instead of fresh discussions about the Ian Fleming Bond books.

Last edited by superado (15th Dec 2016 23:41)

"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....

40

Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

superado wrote:
Revelator wrote:

In case anyone hasn't read about this on the other forums, the rumor of Amis completing TMWTGG has just received a stake through the heart.

On December 13th Sotheby auctioned off a corrected typescript of The Man With the Golden Gun for £65,000. As shown in the sample images (http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/eca … t.166.html), the typescript contains 80 pages bearing Fleming's handwritten revisions. We now know that Fleming added the last two lines of the novel after completing the draft and having it typed up. Those lines are "At the same time, he knew, deep down, that love from Mary Goodnight, or from any other woman, was not enough for him. It would be like taking 'a room with a view'. For James Bond, the same view would always pall."

They are the last lines Fleming ever wrote about James Bond. And they are clearly in Fleming's handwriting, and refute the idea that Kingsley Amis wrote or rewrote the book. We now have undeniable proof that the Fleming had finished a complete draft and was hand-correcting it before his death. Sotheby's also notes the presence of "a single typescript page of suggested corrections by Kingsley Amis that were later adopted in proof." That is likely the extent of Amis's involvement with the manuscript. Case closed.

All that remains to be voiced is the hope that whoever bought this manuscript will allow researchers and scholars to access it and learn how much more Fleming added to the book after drafting it.

Thanks for posting, Revelator.  In short of your wish for expert analysis (a personal desire I share for all of us who are intrigued by the Amis TMWTGG conundrum), do you think this specific typescript + Flemings handwritten corrections = the final, published version of TMWTGG?  By “stake in the heart,” it sounds conclusive but I would love to one day see even a summary from an authoritative analysis of the manuscript.

Regarding your mirror post on the CBN Fleming forum, careful about the forum moderator, Dustin, because he’ll trash any dissenting opinion and if you dare to respond in kind, he’ll suspend your account…not fair in the slightest.  The fact that he's actually allowed to moderate there while bullying others is a reflection on the quality of that forum, one where you can literally hear virtual crickets instead of fresh discussions about the Ian Fleming Bond books.

Case re-opened.

41

Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

superado wrote:

Thanks for posting, Revelator.  In short of your wish for expert analysis (a personal desire I share for all of us who are intrigued by the Amis TMWTGG conundrum), do you think this specific typescript + Flemings handwritten corrections = the final, published version of TMWTGG?  By “stake in the heart,” it sounds conclusive but I would love to one day see even a summary from an authoritative analysis of the manuscript.

I cannot be 100% certain, but I am 99% certain this was the final version of the book. The Sotheby's description also supports this:

noted as the setting copy, autograph revisions in blue ink to about 80 pages, notably the addition two sentences at the end of the novel, and extensive editorial corrections in red, green and black ink, including some further revisions probably added from another typescript, 182 numbered pages, with an additional five pages of preliminaries (half-title, title page, list of Fleming's other books, imprint, and contents page), one leaf cancelled and with the revised text supplied in contemporary photocopy, 4to (255 x 200 mm), June-July 1964, with a single typescript page of suggested corrections by Kingsley Amis that were later adopted in proof, the first page of text with a note from the printer, Richard Clay & Co., requesting the return of marked proofs by 29 December 1964, loose in a red folder; staining to some leaves, some creasing, final leaf torn without loss

Even if this typescript was not the final version (and the description suggests the publishers thought it was) it was close enough--the sample pages show that Fleming had written a complete draft whose text, alongside his handwritten corrections, matches the final published text. I think that is the clincher. All Amis could have contributed were notes and suggestions--no massive changes.

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Revelator wrote:
superado wrote:

Thanks for posting, Revelator.  In short of your wish for expert analysis (a personal desire I share for all of us who are intrigued by the Amis TMWTGG conundrum), do you think this specific typescript + Flemings handwritten corrections = the final, published version of TMWTGG?  By “stake in the heart,” it sounds conclusive but I would love to one day see even a summary from an authoritative analysis of the manuscript.

I cannot be 100% certain, but I am 99% certain this was the final version of the book. The Sotheby's description also supports this:

noted as the setting copy, autograph revisions in blue ink to about 80 pages, notably the addition two sentences at the end of the novel, and extensive editorial corrections in red, green and black ink, including some further revisions probably added from another typescript, 182 numbered pages, with an additional five pages of preliminaries (half-title, title page, list of Fleming's other books, imprint, and contents page), one leaf cancelled and with the revised text supplied in contemporary photocopy, 4to (255 x 200 mm), June-July 1964, with a single typescript page of suggested corrections by Kingsley Amis that were later adopted in proof, the first page of text with a note from the printer, Richard Clay & Co., requesting the return of marked proofs by 29 December 1964, loose in a red folder; staining to some leaves, some creasing, final leaf torn without loss

Even if this typescript was not the final version (and the description suggests the publishers thought it was) it was close enough--the sample pages show that Fleming had written a complete draft whose text, alongside his handwritten corrections, matches the final published text. I think that is the clincher. All Amis could have contributed were notes and suggestions--no massive changes.

I agree, a closer reading of the auction notes details the likely sequence of events in Fleming’s specific revisions to TMWTGG; it’s noteworthy in appropriately documenting how this process differed from Fleming’s established routine that some other authoritative references also detail while some others merely gloss over. 

Nonetheless, I still think a decent literary and textual analysis by capable scholars would finally decide on this issue about the extent of Amis’ involvement and if we are to be intellectually honest, we should not just default to their conclusions because we do not know which points are mere assumptions based on “common knowledge.”  To note, we the public have only this small sample and whatever the auction’s expert has to say on the issue.

Why does it matter?  Again, as we know ad nauseam, it’s the extraordinary circumstances of the book’s writing and the “contamination” of Amis’ involvement, who at the time was a published author who would shortly include to his credit two works related to James Bond, a phenomenon that never happened with Fleming’s other books.

In terms of likelihood, I grant that the merits of this manuscript can potentially rule out the Amis ghost writing theory.  However, here's a litmus test; before having compelling documentation like this, what was the basis of one's conclusion on the matter in light of the unique circumstances I mentioned?  With data like this typescript, a good conclusion at least wouldn’t be based on a fan’s romanticize ideal about Fleming, or an antagonistically dogmatic conclusion like Dustin’s, the charming Lord Farquaad of the commanderbond.net forums.

"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

To paraphrase Fleming: if I can correct you without weakening your case, superado, Amis has THREE Bond-related books to his credit.

superado wrote:

Amis’ involvement, who at the time was a published author who would shortly include to his credit two works related to James Bond

The James Bond Dossier (1965)
The Book of Bond (1965)
Colonel Sun (1968)

10 songs done for next CD- one more started, one being discarded.

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Barbel wrote:

To paraphrase Fleming: if I can correct you without weakening your case, superado, Amis has THREE Bond-related books to his credit.

superado wrote:

Amis’ involvement, who at the time was a published author who would shortly include to his credit two works related to James Bond

The James Bond Dossier (1965)
The Book of Bond (1965)
Colonel Sun (1968)

I stand corrected, and I have a copy of the one I left out, "The Book of Bond" but neither of the other two (which I repeatedly borrow from the library)!

"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....

45

Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

I used to have two copies of the Dossier, but I gave one to Loeffelholz some years ago. I do have a spare "Colonel Sun" in this edition:

https://s23.postimg.org/d3g1zwt93/AA_OLD_MAN.jpg

If you'd like it, drop me a PM.

10 songs done for next CD- one more started, one being discarded.

46

Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Barbel wrote:

I used to have two copies of the Dossier, but I gave one to Loeffelholz some years ago. I do have a spare "Colonel Sun" in this edition:

https://s23.postimg.org/d3g1zwt93/AA_OLD_MAN.jpg

If you'd like it, drop me a PM.

I have that one too in my Colonel Sun collection. Had to buy it online as you'd be lucky to find it in secondhand bookshop.

May I also say what a kind gesture that is, Barbel.  ajb007/smile  ajb007/martini

Writer/Director @ The Bondologist Blog (TBB)
Follow TBB on Twitter: Dragonpol 
'Like' TBB on Facebook: TBB Update Page
In memory of Ian Fleming, Sir Kingsley Amis and John Gardner

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

It looks like the detractors of the Amis theory accept as damning evidence the auction inclusion of “a single typescript page of suggested corrections by Kingsley Amis that were later adopted in proof.”  Yup, if a publisher is going to hire a ghost-writer, yup yup yup, we’re gonna compile the entire compilation of his extensive edits and keep it for posterity because future generations are entitled to the truth and besides, someone can make a fortune by auctioning it off one day.  But because there’s only one page of minor suggested changes, no ghost-editing was ever involved…what geniuses...BTW, I have for sale a grocery list handwritten by Fleming himself with one page that officially vouches for its authenticity!

"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

superado wrote:

BTW, I have for sale a grocery list handwritten by Fleming himself with one page that officially vouches for its authenticity!

I think I've seen that list:

Two bottles vodka, made from grain
One bottle Kina Lillet
Lemons
Two dozen eggs
Butter

Nah, can't be his!

10 songs done for next CD- one more started, one being discarded.

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

superado wrote:

But because there’s only one page of minor suggested changes, no ghost-editing was ever involved…what geniuses...

If Amis had ghost-written the book, why would he have submitted a single page of changes alongside a typescript that had corrections in Fleming's own handwriting that matched the final text of the novel? Furthermore, if Amis had ghostwritten the book, wouldn't we have turned up evidence of this by now, considering that 50 years have passed? There's no credible evidence to believe that Amis ghost-wrote TMWTGG. That theory now has the same credibility as as the ones about 9-11 being an inside job or the moon landing being faked in my back yard.

Last edited by Revelator (22nd Dec 2016 20:08)

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Re: Unfinished Fleming Manuscript Rumour about Kingsley Amis' Colonel Sun?

Revelator wrote:
superado wrote:

But because there’s only one page of minor suggested changes, no ghost-editing was ever involved…what geniuses...

If Amis had ghost-written the book, why would he have submitted a single page of changes alongside a typescript that had corrections in Fleming's own handwriting that matched the final text of the novel? Furthermore, if Amis had ghostwritten the book, wouldn't we have turned up evidence of this by now, considering that 50 years have passed? There's no credible evidence to believe that Amis ghost-wrote TMWTGG. That theory now has the same credibility as as the ones about 9-11 being an inside job or the moon landing being faked in my back yard.

Still waiting for that grassy knoll proof...