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But you do realize that actually killing Bond in B25 will, if not prove, then at least give much credence to the sacriligious Code Name theory?

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There should be clear water between credence and a revival.

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ajb007/lol

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Gala Brand wrote:

It can be done whatever way the producers of the film want to do it! We've already had the first scenario in the films YOLT and Skyfall and Fleming originally killed Bond off in FRWL (and intended for him to stay dead) but brought him back when the book proved to be a big hit.

Fleming did not kill Bond. He ended FRWL with Bond poisoned and unconscious, not dead. We're left not knowing if this poison has killed Bond or not.

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Number24 wrote:

- I want Bond and Madeline to break up early in the film because of his lifestyle and job

- The MI6 needs information from Blofeld to stop some evil plot, but he insists he'll only talk to Madeline. Does he really help the MI6? Does he know the plan or just people and places? There are several possibilities ...

- Blofeld escapes near the middle of the movie, but it's not Madeline's fault. Perhaps the ultimate goal of the evil plot was to break Blofeld out of jail? Perhaps SPECTRE blackmails MI6 to release him, if not they'll blow up London or some other disaster?

- Felix Leiter and Lucia Sciarra are married (only a short scene)

- The Garden of Death at the end (no need for a Bond girl to die to motivate Bond)

- Madeline and Bond depart as friends, Bond ends up with andother woman who also survives.


I think these ideas deserve more attention  (he said modestly  ajb007/shifty )

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Matt S wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:

It can be done whatever way the producers of the film want to do it! We've already had the first scenario in the films YOLT and Skyfall and Fleming originally killed Bond off in FRWL (and intended for him to stay dead) but brought him back when the book proved to be a big hit.

Fleming did not kill Bond. He ended FRWL with Bond poisoned and unconscious, not dead. We're left not knowing if this poison has killed Bond or not.

"One of the significant re-writes changed Bond's fate; Fleming had become disenchanted with his books[9] and wrote to his friend, the American author Raymond Chandler: "My muse is in a very bad way ... I am getting fed up with Bond and it has been very difficult to make him go through his tawdry tricks."[10] Fleming re-wrote the end of the novel in April 1956 to make Klebb poison Bond, which allowed him to finish the series with the death of the character if he wanted."

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Gala Brand wrote:
Matt S wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:

It can be done whatever way the producers of the film want to do it! We've already had the first scenario in the films YOLT and Skyfall and Fleming originally killed Bond off in FRWL (and intended for him to stay dead) but brought him back when the book proved to be a big hit.

Fleming did not kill Bond. He ended FRWL with Bond poisoned and unconscious, not dead. We're left not knowing if this poison has killed Bond or not.

"One of the significant re-writes changed Bond's fate; Fleming had become disenchanted with his books[9] and wrote to his friend, the American author Raymond Chandler: "My muse is in a very bad way ... I am getting fed up with Bond and it has been very difficult to make him go through his tawdry tricks."[10] Fleming re-wrote the end of the novel in April 1956 to make Klebb poison Bond, which allowed him to finish the series with the death of the character if he wanted."

Right. It's an open ending with a cliffhanger. It gave Fleming a way out and the ending allowed Fleming to say that Bond was dead if he wanted. But the ending also gave Fleming the option to bring Bond back because he never actually killed Bond in the book.

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Matt S wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:
Matt S wrote:

Fleming did not kill Bond. He ended FRWL with Bond poisoned and unconscious, not dead. We're left not knowing if this poison has killed Bond or not.

"One of the significant re-writes changed Bond's fate; Fleming had become disenchanted with his books[9] and wrote to his friend, the American author Raymond Chandler: "My muse is in a very bad way ... I am getting fed up with Bond and it has been very difficult to make him go through his tawdry tricks."[10] Fleming re-wrote the end of the novel in April 1956 to make Klebb poison Bond, which allowed him to finish the series with the death of the character if he wanted."

Right. It's an open ending with a cliffhanger. It gave Fleming a way out and the ending allowed Fleming to say that Bond was dead if he wanted. But the ending also gave Fleming the option to bring Bond back because he never actually killed Bond in the book.

Correct. And if they are going to “kill” Bond in this film, they should do it in the same way. In fact, I’m rather hoping that they go this route. I’m pretty tired of Craig’s Bond at this point. I don’t want him back again in 3-4 years time.

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Matt S wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:
Matt S wrote:

Fleming did not kill Bond. He ended FRWL with Bond poisoned and unconscious, not dead. We're left not knowing if this poison has killed Bond or not.

"One of the significant re-writes changed Bond's fate; Fleming had become disenchanted with his books[9] and wrote to his friend, the American author Raymond Chandler: "My muse is in a very bad way ... I am getting fed up with Bond and it has been very difficult to make him go through his tawdry tricks."[10] Fleming re-wrote the end of the novel in April 1956 to make Klebb poison Bond, which allowed him to finish the series with the death of the character if he wanted."

Right. It's an open ending with a cliffhanger. It gave Fleming a way out and the ending allowed Fleming to say that Bond was dead if he wanted. But the ending also gave Fleming the option to bring Bond back because he never actually killed Bond in the book.

It was Fleming's intention to kill off Bond in FRWL because a. the books weren't selling that well; b. the critical reception had gotten worse (even Chandler didn't like DAF, the book that preceded FRWL); c. he hadn't been successful in selling the books to the movies; and d. he was tired of writing about Bond.

Yes, Bond was brought back in DN because FRWL was a bestseller and because Bond is a fictional character. You can do anything to him and he won't die because he's not real.

You can blow up Craig's Bond in a massive explosion and then have James Bond return as a 6'2" 180 pound, black-haired, blue-eyed guy with a cleft chin and have Q  wonder at the marvelous job the plastic surgeons did.

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Number24 wrote:

But you do realize that actually killing Bond in B25 will, if not prove, then at least give much credence to the sacriligious Code Name theory?

Having Bond come back in Bond 26 looking like Tom Hiddleston would do the same.

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Not at all. All Bond actors have played the same character who hasn't died. If Bond dies it will support the Codename Theory.

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Gala Brand wrote:
Matt S wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:

"One of the significant re-writes changed Bond's fate; Fleming had become disenchanted with his books[9] and wrote to his friend, the American author Raymond Chandler: "My muse is in a very bad way ... I am getting fed up with Bond and it has been very difficult to make him go through his tawdry tricks."[10] Fleming re-wrote the end of the novel in April 1956 to make Klebb poison Bond, which allowed him to finish the series with the death of the character if he wanted."

Right. It's an open ending with a cliffhanger. It gave Fleming a way out and the ending allowed Fleming to say that Bond was dead if he wanted. But the ending also gave Fleming the option to bring Bond back because he never actually killed Bond in the book.

It was Fleming's intention to kill off Bond in FRWL because a. the books weren't selling that well; b. the critical reception had gotten worse (even Chandler didn't like DAF, the book that preceded FRWL); c. he hadn't been successful in selling the books to the movies; and d. he was tired of writing about Bond.

There are conflicting stories as to whether or not he truly wanted to kill Bond in From Russia with Love. The fact is that Bond does not die in the last few pages of From Russia with Love. We may think that he's going to his death and that a few minutes later he will be dead. But if you read the words on the page, Fleming did not kill Bond, even if he wanted to at the time. He intentionally left Bond's fate ambiguous.

If Bond actually died, Fleming probably would have written, "the son of a bitch is dead."

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Matt S wrote:

But if you read the words on the page, Fleming did not kill Bond, even if he wanted to at the time. He intentionally left Bond's fate ambiguous.

We have the benefit of actually knowing that Bond survives the poisoning at the end of the novel. But if you were reading it in real time, you could easily surmise that he was dead. In other words, it could have been Fleming killing Bond if he hadn’t written a follow-up novel.

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(curled up in fetal position in corner covering ears and rocking back and forth)

“please santa give us real news please santa give us real news please santa give us real news“

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Miles Messervy wrote:
Matt S wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:

"One of the significant re-writes changed Bond's fate; Fleming had become disenchanted with his books[9] and wrote to his friend, the American author Raymond Chandler: "My muse is in a very bad way ... I am getting fed up with Bond and it has been very difficult to make him go through his tawdry tricks."[10] Fleming re-wrote the end of the novel in April 1956 to make Klebb poison Bond, which allowed him to finish the series with the death of the character if he wanted."

Right. It's an open ending with a cliffhanger. It gave Fleming a way out and the ending allowed Fleming to say that Bond was dead if he wanted. But the ending also gave Fleming the option to bring Bond back because he never actually killed Bond in the book.


Correct. And if they are going to “kill” Bond in this film, they should do it in the same way. In fact, I’m rather hoping that they go this route. I’m pretty tired of Craig’s Bond at this point. I don’t want him back again in 3-4 years time.

There's no reason to have to kill Bond in Bond 25 to move on from Craig....EON could just do a soft re-boot with a new actor. But I guess the logic is if Craig's Bond is killed, then they have no choice but  to move on from Craig. I don't think they will end Bond 25 on that sort of down note. Personally, I'm not so much tired of Craig but just think he has one film left in him....unless they want to bring him back in a Bond geezer film. Title of Bond 26 w/ Craig: Dirty Old OO7? Bad Grandpa Bond?

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with all the talk about Craig being too old and fat, and too much time having past...

I think that should all be factored into the story. Bond25 should explicitly take place five years after the events in SPECTRE. Maybe Bond is not only married/cohabitating with Swann, and retired from the Service, he is in fact now a full-time househusband and all worn out and frazzled from looking after a gaggle of toddlers and in really bad condition for spy work, when M calls him into the office one last time, because after all it is his foster brother blackmailing the assembled world leaders.


(A bit like Mr Incredible, come to think of it. Now there was a good 21st century Bond movie)

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I think the only worry that people have with that storyline is that it is a retrend of Skyfall plot (Which did the old man bond waay to early)

“The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning. "
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming

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James Suzuki wrote:

I think the only worry that people have with that storyline is that it is a retrend of Skyfall plot (Which did the old man bond waay to early)

I agree. Bond was burnt out before he ever really became fully formed.

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

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+1

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Number24 wrote:

+1

I have been thinking about this a lot (too much time on my hands perhaps) Although we saw Burnt out Bond in Skyfall the overarching theme was resurrection. The spin was that he was not really burnt out at al. Just like in QOS he 'never left' A very skilful script could still make this work. Perhaps we could see him firing on all cylinders in an unseen mission, with PTS that accounts for the passage of time.

In 25 perhaps the Mcguffin is that he is really burnt out now  maybe by the death of Madelaine?

#experimenting with being more positive.  ajb007/bond

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

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Judging by the Bond25 poll people want Madeleine too survive the movie, but not in the arms of Bond.
Perhaps the events i the PTS should be the drop that makes her leave Bond, or Bond leave her?
I'd like to see Bond and Madeleine on holiday when Bond is forced to chose duty over her yet again.

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Later SPECTRE plans some evil scheme and MI6 turns to the jailed Blofeld in desperation. Blofeld will only talk if he gets a fine dinner with Madeline Swann. They sit together in Blofeld's cell wearing a dress and tux, eating as if they are in a top resturant. The MI6 are watching on CCTV, tensly waiting for information and ready to send SWAT in to intervene if Blofeld tries anything. In a reverse of Dr No Blofeld tries to hide a knife, Madeline discovers it. They play an inteligent cat and mouse game where both of them tries to get more information without giving away too much.

I think this could be a nice way to give Madeline and Blofeld something interesting to do without making the plot and screentime about them.

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I love that idea number 24. Best idea of bond 25 I've heard so far.
I could see that tux dinner scene be one of the most memorable scenes in the film.

“The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning. "
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming

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I was thinking they could do a Licence to Kill thing and have Blofeld's paddywagon sink in the Thames and have him fished out with scuba divers, but the last Mission Impossible just did that apparently from the trailer.  ajb007/crap

Last edited by Shatterfang (24th Dec 2018 16:55)

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James Suzuki wrote:

I love that idea number 24. Best idea of bond 25 I've heard so far.
I could see that tux dinner scene be one of the most memorable scenes in the film.


Thank you. If well written it would give Lea Seydoux and Cristoph Waltz a better chance to show their acting talents.