1

Topic: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

What is reportedly the Walther handed by M to 007 at the opening of DN is about to go on the block:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n … e-46360414

Nothing on the auctioneer's site (yet ... Humbert Ellis [weirdly not mentioned in the article] is the seller).

Per the provenance, this gun was provided by Bernard Lee as the actual prop had yet to arrive.
Never heard this before and have some trouble believing.

What say you Donk?

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

Just this moment read this, I too can't quite believe Bernard Lee provided the ppk.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

It’s utter balderdash.  Even Higgins knows that it’s a PP in that scene.  If the letter is genuine, Mr Lee was certainly exaggerating and bending certain truths.

..................http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/darkcrown_1969/Asp9mmSIG-1-2.jpg...............

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

Why thank you for asking PMJB,
It's complete and utter B*LLOX!
Back in 2006 I advised on The Guns of James Bond auction at Christies. A PPK Kurz had been submitted as Sean's pistol from Dr.No and everyone and his dog was pretty happy with it. I had to prove to the specialists that despite what the armourer said on screen the pistol was in fact a PP and not a PPK. This actually meant freeze framing every time Bond's pistol appeared on screen, in his hand, by his bed, in the sand and in his pocket. I then had to do the same with every publicity image. It took bloody ages!

Now to the scene in question where this piece of BS is claimed to be used. There are two instances where it is clear you are looking at a PP and not a PPK. When the armourer first takes the pistol from its case you can see the longer muzzle and when you know what you are looking at the two piece PP grips which do not join up at the rear of the magazine well as found on a PPK however the real give away is just before Sean holsters the pistol as the profile against his shirt is of a long muzzle slide with a deeper magazine well/grip. We also had a stunt PP submitted which had a cast finger spur magazine baseplate so I had to prove that at no time did a PP appear other than with a flat base to the magazine so I am confident I can say 100% as a consultant the PPK submitted for auction is complete and utter B*LLOX!  ajb007/martini

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

ppw3o6r wrote:

Why thank you for asking PMJB,
It's complete and utter B*LLOX!

Would you be reaching out to Humbert Ellis then? Somebody had ought to!

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

PoorMansJB wrote:
ppw3o6r wrote:

Why thank you for asking PMJB,
It's complete and utter B*LLOX!

Would you be reaching out to Humbert Ellis? Somebody had ought to!

I've just tried to contact the BBC regarding their article but yes I will contact the auction house and put them right.

Sent to Humbert & Ellis:
Dear Sirs,
Back in 2006 I advised on The Guns of James Bond auction at Christies. A PPK Kurz had been submitted as Sean's pistol from Dr.No and everyone and his dog was pretty happy with it. I had to prove to the specialists that despite what the armourer said on screen the pistol was in fact a PP and not a PPK. This actually meant freeze framing every time Bond's pistol appeared on screen, in his hand, by his bed, in the sand and in his pocket. I then had to do the same with every publicity image. It took bloody ages!
Now to the scene in question where this piece is claimed to be used. There are two instances where it is clear you are looking at a PP and not a PPK. When the armourer first takes the pistol from its case you can see the longer muzzle and when you know what you are looking at the two piece PP grips which do not join up at the rear of the magazine well as found on a PPK however the real give away is just before Sean holsters the pistol as the profile against his white shirt is of a long muzzle slide with a deeper magazine well/grip. We also had a stunt PP submitted which had a cast finger spur magazine baseplate so I had to prove that at no time did a PP appear other than with a flat base to the magazine so I am confident I can say 100% as a consultant the PPK submitted for auction was not at any time seen on screen in the 1962 production Dr.No.

I am also the author of the book The Most Famous Gun In The World, a history of 007's weapons on the silver screen.

If you would like any further information please do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards

Last edited by ppw3o6r (27th Nov 2018 22:49)

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

https://i.postimg.cc/jnX5Vj3F/09-FB256-C-87-B3-40-A9-A224-02-A506-CA7-AA3.png

https://i.postimg.cc/14ccRcLL/8316-C92-C-F832-42-B4-8-D6-B-2-BB841-D1-EF47.png

https://i.postimg.cc/8jpd7fGs/873835-F6-2872-4-CA9-AA0-C-4-F845-DF9015-B.png

https://i.postimg.cc/Sjpfptt6/D29-CD793-0146-4-C4-B-A14-E-F6274069-C021.png

https://i.postimg.cc/7JD6Qz9z/DC79-A6-D0-AD7-F-4095-90-F0-BDD142256-C9-C.png

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

I was about to message you and Asp about this when I saw the article! Glad someone is contacting them

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

Thank you Ray. I always hoped there would be a copy of TMFGITW on the shelf of most major auction houses so this type of "flexibility of the truth" did not occur again. There are too many examples of PPK pistols in particular appearing at major auctions claiming to be the one used by a particular actor where in reality the engraving on the pistol was not utilised by the factory until long after the actor in questions tenure as 007 had come to an end or the shape of a pistol being pre-Bond. I certainly didn't expect the old PPK/Dr.No debate to kick off again! I will update once the auction house replies. With few exceptions they usually don't!

Incidentally, there will be a The Most Famous Gun In The World 2 published to coincide with the release of and to include B25, the content of which blows Famous Gun 1 out of the water! ....You read it here first!  ajb007/martini

Last edited by ppw3o6r (28th Nov 2018 08:33)

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

ppw3o6r wrote:

Why thank you for asking PMJB,
It's complete and utter B*LLOX!
Back in 2006 I advised on The Guns of James Bond auction at Christies. A PPK Kurz had been submitted as Sean's pistol from Dr.No and everyone and his dog was pretty happy with it. I had to prove to the specialists that despite what the armourer said on screen the pistol was in fact a PP and not a PPK. This actually meant freeze framing every time Bond's pistol appeared on screen, in his hand, by his bed, in the sand and in his pocket. I then had to do the same with every publicity image. It took bloody ages!

Now to the scene in question where this piece of BS is claimed to be used. There are two instances where it is clear you are looking at a PP and not a PPK. When the armourer first takes the pistol from its case you can see the longer muzzle and when you know what you are looking at the two piece PP grips which do not join up at the rear of the magazine well as found on a PPK however the real give away is just before Sean holsters the pistol as the profile against his shirt is of a long muzzle slide with a deeper magazine well/grip. We also had a stunt PP submitted which had a cast finger spur magazine baseplate so I had to prove that at no time did a PP appear other than with a flat base to the magazine so I am confident I can say 100% as a consultant the PPK submitted for auction is complete and utter B*LLOX!  ajb007/martini

I knew it was a pp later in the film, its quite obvious in some scenes, but I always thought I knew it was a ppk handed to bond in m's office!

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

Chriscoop wrote:

I knew it was a pp later in the film, its quite obvious in some scenes, but I always thought I knew it was a ppk handed to bond in m's office!


Seriously.  You’re admitting to Higgins knowing something that you didn’t  ajb007/crap    I’d delete this post if I were you  ajb007/lol

Way before Donk and I became friends, I’d also done the same thing on all the Bond films trying to find evidence of a Zella PPK being used at any time during series.  This came about through Stembridge offering them as screen used and somebody in the UK doing the same thing after the VHS series was released with photoshopped covers showing a Zella in the (not) hands of Connery and Moore.   During this research, I have never, ever seen a publicity still, frame or outtake from Dr No that shows a PPK being used.  That’s because it wasn’t.  Donk has access to armourers and log books from that period.  If it’s a definitive NO from him, then that’s the end of it.   

There are many anecdotes from cast and crew that dealt with the guns of Bond from that period.  I’m sure if this story was true, it would have been high up on the list of conversation points.  Yet this is the first we’ve heard if it.  I’d like to see close up of the proof marks as it looks like it’s been deactivated twice. From that, it would be possible to piece together the genuine history of the piece to some extent.

..................http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/darkcrown_1969/Asp9mmSIG-1-2.jpg...............

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

Asp9mm wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

I knew it was a pp later in the film, its quite obvious in some scenes, but I always thought I knew it was a ppk handed to bond in m's office!


Seriously.  You’re admitting to Higgins knowing something that you didn’t  ajb007/crap    I’d delete this post if I were you  ajb007/lol

Way before Donk and I became friends, I’d also done the same thing on all the Bond films trying to find evidence of a Zella PPK being used at any time during series.  This came about through Stembridge offering them as screen used and somebody in the UK doing the same thing after the VHS series was released with photoshopped covers showing a Zella in the (not) hands of Connery and Moore.   During this research, I have never, ever seen a publicity still, frame or outtake from Dr No that shows a PPK being used.  That’s because it wasn’t.  Donk has access to armourers and log books from that period.  If it’s a definitive NO from him, then that’s the end of it.   

There are many anecdotes from cast and crew that dealt with the guns of Bond from that period.  I’m sure if this story was true, it would have been high up on the list of conversation points.  Yet this is the first we’ve heard if it.  I’d like to see close up of the proof marks as it looks like it’s been deactivated twice. From that, it would be possible to piece together the genuine history of the piece to some extent.

I think it's just one of those memory things with me, Ive seen that film so many times and at some point in the distant dark past I spotted the PP in use in Jamaica, I don't think I ever thought back to when Bond was actually given the pistol. D never doubt you and Donk on these things, and as they say every day is a school day on AJB  ajb007/martini

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

Update: the BBC have now been contacted regarding their article with a PDF of the correspondence sent to Humbert & Ellis  ajb007/martini Donk

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

ppw3o6r wrote:

Update: the BBC have now been contacted regarding their article with a PDF of the correspondence sent to Humbert & Ellis  ajb007/martini Donk

Nice one  ajb007/martini

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

Amazing (well: shocking) how auction houses fail to properly authenticate this kind of item; especially with this kind of money involved...

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

Youknowthename wrote:

Amazing (well: shocking) how auction houses fail to properly authenticate this kind of item; especially with this kind of money involved...

Perhaps, but aside from Donk, look at the number of people -- most of whom probably consider themselves knowledgable about Bond or they wouldn't be part of AJB -- in this very thread who've stated "but I thought it was at least the PPK in that scene."
I mean, other than doubting the Lee story, I would have said it was a PPK because that's the lore.

Just how deep should an auction house be expected to dig if they've been given provenance by the owner of the piece?
Not saying they can just take anything at face value but from this very discussion it's apparent this was a tricky one.

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

PoorMansJB wrote:

Just how deep should an auction house be expected to dig if they've been given provenance by the owner of the piece?

True, but this is a rather iconic piece of movie history. If they expect to fetch 80 grand for it, some Googling or other research is the very least they can do.

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

That would be one very unhappy customer if he paid for it and later learned the truth.

..................http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/darkcrown_1969/Asp9mmSIG-1-2.jpg...............

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

I figured the more people that call this auction out, the better chances of the situation getting resolved. I to send an email to the Auction house and received this reply.

https://i.postimg.cc/hzcYXH48/3-ABA791-C-7869-4127-B0-D2-DD862705-AD16.png

Assuming that the seller isn’t intentionally trying to commit an act of fraud, I can’t help but feel a little bad for them. In the Bernard Lee letter is the one referred to as “your boy.” Imagine growing up thinking your entire life you own James Bond’s PPK, only to have that belief utterly destroyed by a group of diehard fans.

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

ppw3o6r wrote:

Thank you Ray. I always hoped there would be a copy of TMFGITW on the shelf of most major auction houses so this type of "flexibility of the truth" did not occur again. There are too many examples of PPK pistols in particular appearing at major auctions claiming to be the one used by a particular actor where in reality the engraving on the pistol was not utilised by the factory until long after the actor in questions tenure as 007 had come to an end or the shape of a pistol being pre-Bond. I certainly didn't expect the old PPK/Dr.No debate to kick off again! I will update once the auction house replies. With few exceptions they usually don't!

Incidentally, there will be a The Most Famous Gun In The World 2 published to coincide with the release of and to include B25, the content of which blows Famous Gun 1 out of the water! ....You read it here first!  ajb007/martini

That’s amazing!! Please tell me it will be available in hardcover!

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

Asp9mm wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

I knew it was a pp later in the film, its quite obvious in some scenes, but I always thought I knew it was a ppk handed to bond in m's office!


Seriously.  You’re admitting to Higgins knowing something that you didn’t  ajb007/crap    I’d delete this post if I were you  ajb007/lol

Way before Donk and I became friends, I’d also done the same thing on all the Bond films trying to find evidence of a Zella PPK being used at any time during series.  This came about through Stembridge offering them as screen used and somebody in the UK doing the same thing after the VHS series was released with photoshopped covers showing a Zella in the (not) hands of Connery and Moore.   During this research, I have never, ever seen a publicity still, frame or outtake from Dr No that shows a PPK being used.  That’s because it wasn’t.  Donk has access to armourers and log books from that period.  If it’s a definitive NO from him, then that’s the end of it.   

There are many anecdotes from cast and crew that dealt with the guns of Bond from that period.  I’m sure if this story was true, it would have been high up on the list of conversation points.  Yet this is the first we’ve heard if it.  I’d like to see close up of the proof marks as it looks like it’s been deactivated twice. From that, it would be possible to piece together the genuine history of the piece to some extent.

I actually was in contact with the NRA museum about the Dalton PPK in their collection. Apparently it is no longer there and they have no way of tracking its whereabouts.

As far as the auction PPK, The serial number matches the date code on the chamber and it was manufactured in 1961, a year before filming started on the Dr.No. It is of the correct time period, but  as we’ve already established was never in the film. Is there a chance that the scene was filmed with Mr. Lee’s PPK, and when it was deemed inappropriate, those shots ended up on the cutting room floor in the scene using the PP was used?

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

BCFDRay wrote:

I figured the more people that call this auction out, the better chances of the situation getting resolved. I to send an email to the Auction house and received this reply.

https://i.postimg.cc/hzcYXH48/3-ABA791-C-7869-4127-B0-D2-DD862705-AD16.png

Assuming that the seller isn’t intentionally trying to commit an act of fraud, I can’t help but feel a little bad for them. In the Bernard Lee letter is the one referred to as “your boy.” Imagine growing up thinking your entire life you own James Bond’s PPK, only to have that belief utterly destroyed by a group of diehard fans.

That's hilarious. I've had the identical reply from the auction house!

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

BCFDRay wrote:
Asp9mm wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

I knew it was a pp later in the film, its quite obvious in some scenes, but I always thought I knew it was a ppk handed to bond in m's office!


Seriously.  You’re admitting to Higgins knowing something that you didn’t  ajb007/crap    I’d delete this post if I were you  ajb007/lol

Way before Donk and I became friends, I’d also done the same thing on all the Bond films trying to find evidence of a Zella PPK being used at any time during series.  This came about through Stembridge offering them as screen used and somebody in the UK doing the same thing after the VHS series was released with photoshopped covers showing a Zella in the (not) hands of Connery and Moore.   During this research, I have never, ever seen a publicity still, frame or outtake from Dr No that shows a PPK being used.  That’s because it wasn’t.  Donk has access to armourers and log books from that period.  If it’s a definitive NO from him, then that’s the end of it.   

There are many anecdotes from cast and crew that dealt with the guns of Bond from that period.  I’m sure if this story was true, it would have been high up on the list of conversation points.  Yet this is the first we’ve heard if it.  I’d like to see close up of the proof marks as it looks like it’s been deactivated twice. From that, it would be possible to piece together the genuine history of the piece to some extent.

I actually was in contact with the NRA museum about the Dalton PPK in their collection. Apparently it is no longer there and they have no way of tracking its whereabouts.

Any idea when it left? I remember visiting the NRA museum in 2013 and seeing that PPK amongst some other famous film weapons like Mcclane's Beretta and Tom Cruise's USP .45 from Collateral.

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

BCFDRay wrote:
Asp9mm wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

I knew it was a pp later in the film, its quite obvious in some scenes, but I always thought I knew it was a ppk handed to bond in m's office!


Seriously.  You’re admitting to Higgins knowing something that you didn’t  ajb007/crap    I’d delete this post if I were you  ajb007/lol

Way before Donk and I became friends, I’d also done the same thing on all the Bond films trying to find evidence of a Zella PPK being used at any time during series.  This came about through Stembridge offering them as screen used and somebody in the UK doing the same thing after the VHS series was released with photoshopped covers showing a Zella in the (not) hands of Connery and Moore.   During this research, I have never, ever seen a publicity still, frame or outtake from Dr No that shows a PPK being used.  That’s because it wasn’t.  Donk has access to armourers and log books from that period.  If it’s a definitive NO from him, then that’s the end of it.   

There are many anecdotes from cast and crew that dealt with the guns of Bond from that period.  I’m sure if this story was true, it would have been high up on the list of conversation points.  Yet this is the first we’ve heard if it.  I’d like to see close up of the proof marks as it looks like it’s been deactivated twice. From that, it would be possible to piece together the genuine history of the piece to some extent.

I actually was in contact with the NRA museum about the Dalton PPK in their collection. Apparently it is no longer there and they have no way of tracking its whereabouts.

As far as the auction PPK, The serial number matches the date code on the chamber and it was manufactured in 1961, a year before filming started on the Dr.No. It is of the correct time period, but  as we’ve already established was never in the film. Is there a chance that the scene was filmed with Mr. Lee’s PPK, and when it was deemed inappropriate, those shots ended up on the cutting room floor in the scene using the PP was used?

What you have to bear in mind is Sean also used a suppressed Browning FN 1910 and a 1911 A1 both of which are standing in for a PPK so it is highly unlikely the PPK would have been deemed inappropriate for this scene or any other especially when you take into account Boothroyd's and eventually Fleming's preference for said pistol for the 007 character therefore if The Pinewood Armoury had any PPK pistols available for hire to the production? then trust me PPK pistols would have appeared on screen and my tag line "In the beginning" ..."A Walther PPK" etc would have been totally buggered!!  ajb007/martini

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Re: Bond's "First" PPK on the Block

walther p99 wrote:
BCFDRay wrote:
Asp9mm wrote:

Seriously.  You’re admitting to Higgins knowing something that you didn’t  ajb007/crap    I’d delete this post if I were you  ajb007/lol

Way before Donk and I became friends, I’d also done the same thing on all the Bond films trying to find evidence of a Zella PPK being used at any time during series.  This came about through Stembridge offering them as screen used and somebody in the UK doing the same thing after the VHS series was released with photoshopped covers showing a Zella in the (not) hands of Connery and Moore.   During this research, I have never, ever seen a publicity still, frame or outtake from Dr No that shows a PPK being used.  That’s because it wasn’t.  Donk has access to armourers and log books from that period.  If it’s a definitive NO from him, then that’s the end of it.   

There are many anecdotes from cast and crew that dealt with the guns of Bond from that period.  I’m sure if this story was true, it would have been high up on the list of conversation points.  Yet this is the first we’ve heard if it.  I’d like to see close up of the proof marks as it looks like it’s been deactivated twice. From that, it would be possible to piece together the genuine history of the piece to some extent.

I actually was in contact with the NRA museum about the Dalton PPK in their collection. Apparently it is no longer there and they have no way of tracking its whereabouts.

Any idea when it left? I remember visiting the NRA museum in 2013 and seeing that PPK amongst some other famous film weapons like Mcclane's Beretta and Tom Cruise's USP .45 from Collateral.

Unfortunately no, all they said was I was  “referencing some outdated information.”