Well, CR has one specific 'bad Bond moment' and that's the defibrilator sequence. It starts of very well when Bond realises his drink has been spiked. He leaves the card table grabs a glass and a salt container then goes to the bathroom to make himself throw up the poison. This is where the sequence should have ended. Instead we get the farce of Bond stumbling to the Aston Martin then trying to connect the defibrilator with numerous MI6 people (who rather conveniently happen to be immediately available with the right medical knowledge) shouting instructions at him. When Vesper Lynd suddenly appears and saves the day Bond makes a miraculously quick recovery (considering he's just had virtual cardiac arrest) and goes straight back to the card table.
I minded this less than you did; IMO it did suffer from a lack of set-up, as we Bond fans are accustomed to it: Bond gets the briefing from Q, and rolls his eyes in boredom when Q points out the defibrillator in the glove box. As for his quick recovery...to me that's a Bond moment, :007) particularly when his first question is to ask Vesper if she's okay B-)
I would rather have Q's briefing with rolling eyes in boredom if the defibrilator is the best they can do in his absence. The defibrilator certainly represents Q's remarkable foresight in that he knew exactly the right gadget that Bond would require for each mission. And virtually all of those gadgets would never be required again.
I certainly didn't see 007's miraculously quick recovery as a Bond moment. I saw it more as Bond doing the impossible. But I did enjoy the moment when he asks Vesper Lynd if she is okay.
As for CR being perhaps the least conscious Bond film since the early '60's. You may be right, but I will add the Aston Martin DB5 to those that Dan mentioned.
Here again, the self-consciousness is far from overpowering, IMO, since those who haven't seen previous Bonds would think nothing of the DB5 Bond wins in the card game...although they might wonder why MI6 provides 007 a brand new Aston for the mission; definitely one Aston Martin too many...the mission car should have been a new Bentley :007)
I don't think the Aston Martin DB5 was overpowering. I just mentioned it as an example of the self-consciousness in CR. Likewise, Bond emerging from the sea in swimming trunks. A different (and clever) slant to one of the most iconic moments in Bond (and movie) history.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,991Quartermasters
I certainly didn't see 007's miraculously quick recovery as a Bond moment. I saw it more as Bond doing the impossible.
Bond doing the impossible...hmmm...well, there's a first time for everything, I guess )
I'm merely asserting that CR is the least self-conscious Bond in decades, which---when compared to any (comparatively infinite) number of moments in the past sixteen pictures---isn't that outrageous an assertion, IMO.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
and I'd never concede that this line is a 'bad Bond moment.' To place it alongside underwater tie-straightening, Tarzan yells, double-taking pigeons, et al., seems a double-standard to me.
I don't think it's a bad moment in the slightest. Self-conscious, yes, but bad, certainly not. I also wouldn't place it alongside the moments that you mentioned, but if I were to, why would that be a double-standard?
And, if Eon had bowed to established convention---and had Q, M or someone else 'set up' the defibrillator for the audience---nobody would have had anything to complain about, since it would then fall into the same category as the wrist dart gun, the ejector seat...and all the other unlikely and/or outlandish gadgets which have saved Bond's hide over the years. Ironic, since portable defibrillators---when compared to super-magnetic watches---are fairly ubiquitous in our world.
I have three problems with this scene: One, it highlighted how pointless the tracking device was (if Bond hadn't gone into the car, he could have died, and MI6 couldn't have done anything.) Two, I agree with MNL in that his recovery was rather miraculous (and not particularly Bond-like IMO ). Three, the difference between this gadget and other gadgets (such as the injector seat) is that IMO the defibrillator was executed poorly. I just found it too convenient (with the staff at HQ all being around at the same time and having the correct medical knowledge). I also felt that, in a film which seems to pride itself on its 'realism,' Bond's recovery was too 'fantastical' (although I did like the line 'that last hand nearly killed me.') But also, I particularly disliked the nod to OHMSS; IMO Vesper is no Tracy, Green is no Rigg and Vesper's entrance was nowhere of the calibre of Tracey's entrance in Switzerland.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
A big distraction in that scene was the unconventonally foxy brunette babe in the Q headquarters who looks all concerned and had a whiff of Joanne Walley in The Singing Detective. I wanted to stay with that scene and not go back to Bond and neurotic Vesper in their dreary casino... )
Well, CR has one specific 'bad Bond moment' and that's the defibrilator sequence. It starts of very well when Bond realises his drink has been spiked. He leaves the card table grabs a glass and a salt container then goes to the bathroom to make himself throw up the poison. This is where the sequence should have ended.
Why?
Why not?
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,991Quartermasters
and I'd never concede that this line is a 'bad Bond moment.' To place it alongside underwater tie-straightening, Tarzan yells, double-taking pigeons, et al., seems a double-standard to me.
I don't think it's a bad moment in the slightest. Self-conscious, yes, but bad, certainly not. I also wouldn't place it alongside the moments that you mentioned, but if I were to, why would that be a double-standard?
I feel that CR's aggrieved 'self-conscious' transgressions (which I don't necessarily concede :v )---minor, IMO, when placed alongside the previous era's double-taking pigeons and underwater tie-straightening, etc.---clearly reveal two distinct standards for fandom acceptability...but that's only my opinion, of course. Since you're not condemning CR for its specific issues, whilst issuing dispensation to previous films' obviously more outlandish examples, though, the point is moot
And, if Eon had bowed to established convention---and had Q, M or someone else 'set up' the defibrillator for the audience---nobody would have had anything to complain about, since it would then fall into the same category as the wrist dart gun, the ejector seat...and all the other unlikely and/or outlandish gadgets which have saved Bond's hide over the years. Ironic, since portable defibrillators---when compared to super-magnetic watches---are fairly ubiquitous in our world.
I have three problems with this scene: One, it highlighted how pointless the tracking device was (if Bond hadn't gone into the car, he could have died, and MI6 couldn't have done anything.)
But they would at least know he was dead...how he died...and the precise location of his remains---useful information for a follow-up investigation; much more than the death of a field operative without a tracking device would yield, surely...
Two, I agree with MNL in that his recovery was rather miraculous (and not particularly Bond-like IMO ).
I'm reminded of the classic OP, and Moore's Bond recovering from his 'injuries'---shrugging out of the slings as if he'd been faking it all along ) Priceless...but if that's 'Bond-like'...no thanks
Three, the difference between this gadget and other gadgets (such as the injector seat) is that IMO the defibrillator was executed poorly. I just found it too convenient (with the staff at HQ all being around at the same time and having the correct medical knowledge).
I don't have a problem with MI6's situation room being fully staffed at any hour of the day or night---it's high-priority mission, we can assume, and a Bond film as well! :007) And timely convenience has always been a hallmark of Bond's dazzling array of gadgets over the years...
I also felt that, in a film which seems to pride itself on its 'realism,' Bond's recovery was too 'fantastical' (although I did like the line 'that last hand nearly killed me.')
Well, as we've discussed ad nauseam, 'realism' is relative. Compared to six out of seven Moore films, CR is a National Geographic documentary )
But also, I particularly disliked the nod to OHMSS; IMO Vesper is no Tracy, Green is no Rigg and Vesper's entrance was nowhere of the calibre of Tracey's entrance in Switzerland.
I think some set-up, re: Vesper having taken EMT training, or some such twaddle, would have been beneficial, to be sure, but then CR isn't any other film other than CR---thank God it's no OP or AVTAK...* Remember, I rank OHMSS over CR as well
I would only add: George Lazenby is no Daniel Craig
*Hi JFF!
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Oh Loeff, you can't even defend your god of films (well second god, since Casmelly Royal-Catastrophe came in). At least OP and AVTAK had beautiful Bond women where CR had a mute woman and a vampire. Also those films aren't overrated in terms of plot, actor, or anything, unlike a certain piece of tripe I've talked about.
At least OP and AVTAK had beautiful Bond women where CR had a mute woman and a vampire.
I assume by vampire you are referring to Green, and by mute woman, you're obviously talking about Ivana Milicevic. I completely agree with you on both counts. In fact, one of my biggest problems with the film is regarding the casting of Green (who gave IMO the worst performance in the entire film.) I was also extremely disappointed that the beautiful Ivana Milicevic was so wasted. She could have been another Xenia Onatopp.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Oh Loeff, you can't even defend your god of films (well second god, since Casmelly Royal-Catastrophe came in).
Question: Just who is my 'God of films'? I need to know these things...
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Oh Loeff, you can't even defend your god of films (well second god, since Casmelly Royal-Catastrophe came in).
Question: Just who is my 'God of films'? I need to know these things...
LTK? I meant God of Bond Films, in case I wasn't clear. And you know I'm joking Loeff, wrong as you may be.
8-)
I rank LTK at #14 on my list of favourite Bonds---behind LALD, TSWLM and TMWTGG. 8-)
And your comedy material needs work.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
The AVTAK apple clearly does not fall far from the tree.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
But they would at least know he was dead...how he died...and the precise location of his remains---useful information for a follow-up investigation; much more than the death of a field operative without a tracking device would yield, surely...
True. However I think that the tracker was still underused (and rather pointless) considering the setup. When it was given to Bond, I thought that it would be of real use, which IMO did not turn out to be the case.
Well, as we've discussed ad nauseam, 'realism' is relative. Compared to six out of seven Moore films, CR is a National Geographic documentary )
I guess it comes down to the feeling that one gets when watching a film. That is, regardless of who realistic CR actually is, it struck me as wanting to be especially realistic, and when it wasn't, it felt false to me.
I think some set-up, re: Vesper having taken EMT training, or some such twaddle, would have been beneficial, to be sure, but then CR isn't any other film other than CR---thank God it's no OP or AVTAK...* Remember, I rank OHMSS over CR as well
Is it just me then who read that as a reference to OHMSS? I don't know, I guess when I saw that scene, I immediately thought of Tracey coming to Switzerland in OHMSS.
I would only add: George Lazenby is no Daniel Craig
He also isn't Sean Connery.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I might be mixing you up with Klaus... my apologies if so!
Considering all the times he debated with you (and me) the merits (or lack thereof) of LTK, I'm suprised that you confused Klaus with Loeff. ) He obviously hasn't been around in a while.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Nice take on MR, fish. I also don't think it's all that bad. Kind of an inferior--just--TSWLM. Both have similar plusses and minuses, IMO. Like with Moore's first two films, TMWTGG feels like the bit off the mark sibling to LALD.
As far as destroy everything plots go, MR seems more developed than any other Bond film--Drax actually has the whole thing planned out, and has his new world order in place. Unlike Stromberg, who has a cute little model, Barbara Bach, and a shark...live the dream, dude.
MR does take the whole split personailty Bond film thing to another level, starts with the precredits and never lets up. There's a much better Bond film in there somewhere, but same could be said of every 70s Bond film IMO. Oh well, at least it's not a Glen Bond.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on Glen, I can't even consider the 5 films he directed as Bond films, I think they're so uniformly bad. My default comparison is, his films remind me of the old 70s animated STAR TREK cartoon series, or like, imitation flavoring--might taste similar, but there's not a shred of the real thing in it. Also, causes cancer.
I'm not a big fan of John Glen. ALthough FYEO is one of my ten favourite Bond films and I'm also extremely fond of OP, I hate the other three films. AVTAK is last on my list, TLD is second last and LTK is fourth last. If Glen had only directed FYEO and OP, I would think much more highly of him. But no, he had to direct three films which I consider to be crimes against the franchise and work with Dalton; IMO the worst ever Bond.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I think John Glen did a fine job when he had a decent movie with which to work. TLD and LTK are in the top 10 as far I'm concerned. I choose to ignore his other 3 contributions to the series.
) For AVTAK, TLD and LTK, I certainly think that he should be locked up and the key be thrown away.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
His direction cant have been that bad if the films made money at the box IMO , they were good, if anything the screenplay was the let down, but that was what the audience wanted at the time
I like all 5 of Glen's Bond films to varying degrees- I think the weakest is AVTAK, the other 4 I personally rate highly- I am pleased that Glen took over than them having more of the comedic excess Guy Hamilton seemed to bring in and the pyrotechnics of Lewis Gilbert. Glen's entries have more bite, imho, than some of those two director's Bond films (only Goldfinger and TSWLM of those two's films really work THAT well for me). He was the most prolific director of course, so someone else liked his work too.
His direction cant have been that bad if the films made money at the box IMO
Box office does not mean quality. DAD was a huge success, and IMO it was the third worst Bond film of all time.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Comments
I would rather have Q's briefing with rolling eyes in boredom if the defibrilator is the best they can do in his absence. The defibrilator certainly represents Q's remarkable foresight in that he knew exactly the right gadget that Bond would require for each mission. And virtually all of those gadgets would never be required again.
I certainly didn't see 007's miraculously quick recovery as a Bond moment. I saw it more as Bond doing the impossible. But I did enjoy the moment when he asks Vesper Lynd if she is okay.
I don't think the Aston Martin DB5 was overpowering. I just mentioned it as an example of the self-consciousness in CR. Likewise, Bond emerging from the sea in swimming trunks. A different (and clever) slant to one of the most iconic moments in Bond (and movie) history.
Bond doing the impossible...hmmm...well, there's a first time for everything, I guess
I'm merely asserting that CR is the least self-conscious Bond in decades, which---when compared to any (comparatively infinite) number of moments in the past sixteen pictures---isn't that outrageous an assertion, IMO.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I have three problems with this scene: One, it highlighted how pointless the tracking device was (if Bond hadn't gone into the car, he could have died, and MI6 couldn't have done anything.) Two, I agree with MNL in that his recovery was rather miraculous (and not particularly Bond-like IMO
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Why not?
I feel that CR's aggrieved 'self-conscious' transgressions (which I don't necessarily concede :v )---minor, IMO, when placed alongside the previous era's double-taking pigeons and underwater tie-straightening, etc.---clearly reveal two distinct standards for fandom acceptability...but that's only my opinion, of course. Since you're not condemning CR for its specific issues, whilst issuing dispensation to previous films' obviously more outlandish examples, though, the point is moot
But they would at least know he was dead...how he died...and the precise location of his remains---useful information for a follow-up investigation; much more than the death of a field operative without a tracking device would yield, surely...
I'm reminded of the classic OP, and Moore's Bond recovering from his 'injuries'---shrugging out of the slings as if he'd been faking it all along
I don't have a problem with MI6's situation room being fully staffed at any hour of the day or night---it's high-priority mission, we can assume, and a Bond film as well! :007) And timely convenience has always been a hallmark of Bond's dazzling array of gadgets over the years...
Well, as we've discussed ad nauseam, 'realism' is relative. Compared to six out of seven Moore films, CR is a National Geographic documentary
I think some set-up, re: Vesper having taken EMT training, or some such twaddle, would have been beneficial, to be sure, but then CR isn't any other film other than CR---thank God it's no OP or AVTAK...* Remember, I rank OHMSS over CR as well
I would only add: George Lazenby is no Daniel Craig
*Hi JFF!
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Question: Just who is my 'God of films'? I need to know these things...
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
LTK? I meant God of Bond Films, in case I wasn't clear. And you know I'm joking Loeff, wrong as you may be.
And RJJB, I may never grow up...
8-)
I rank LTK at #14 on my list of favourite Bonds---behind LALD, TSWLM and TMWTGG. 8-)
And your comedy material needs work.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
However, this surprises me! I thought you were a staunch supporter of said film. I might be mixing you up with Klaus... my apologies if so!
The AVTAK apple clearly does not fall far from the tree.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I guess it comes down to the feeling that one gets when watching a film. That is, regardless of who realistic CR actually is, it struck me as wanting to be especially realistic, and when it wasn't, it felt false to me.
Is it just me then who read that as a reference to OHMSS?
He also isn't Sean Connery.
As far as destroy everything plots go, MR seems more developed than any other Bond film--Drax actually has the whole thing planned out, and has his new world order in place. Unlike Stromberg, who has a cute little model, Barbara Bach, and a shark...live the dream, dude.
MR does take the whole split personailty Bond film thing to another level, starts with the precredits and never lets up. There's a much better Bond film in there somewhere, but same could be said of every 70s Bond film IMO. Oh well, at least it's not a Glen Bond.
WANTED, DEAD OR ALIVE!
No, I made blueman & Dan Same's opinions perfectly clear.
Did you bother to read their posts? You need to lighten up, Fish.
Lol. Nice reset, MNL, I deserved that. {[]