As something of an international politics nerd, in response to the statement that "Fleming would be appalled by the antiamericanism in QOS;"
You might be surprised. From what I've read by him, Fleming's more than a little iffy about the United States. Okay, no surprise there; no superpower likes to be replaced. But what really surprised me when reading "For Your Eyes Only" was how hostile he was to American backed dictators like Batista (portrayed as a Nazi sympathizer and a Mafia thug), and the fact that he actually seems to have more sympathy for Castro's side of the struggle. I think there's also a line in Golden Gun to the effect that if the Americans would just ease up on Castro, "all the steam would let out of the little man."
It's not at all what I expected from Fleming, but it's there. And there are some echoes of it Quantum of Solace.
I don't see anything particularly anti-american about these statements, Fleming was very blunt with all parts of the globe. Even Britain was not immune. littered through out Fleming's books he has characters, also I believe Bond himself, make statements about the UK's diminishing role in world politics. Casino Royale questions the very nature of Bond's occupation, how the heroes and villians get all mixed up and that line between good and evil is blurred. In general, behind the bravado, the James Bond books are very existential and address all sorts of issues.
I absolutely agree thesecretagent. It's a shame that he didn't get to do more films than just TLD and LTK. He had Connery's toughness and Moore's charm and subtlety and a lot more charisma than Brosnan. Although Craig is a good actor and is tough in the role, he lacks charm IMHO. Dalton was also supported by 2 excellent scripts.
I think Dalton is the best Bond image by far. He is tough enough, swarve enough, handsome in a rugged way, well-heeled, the right age - and I think Dalton gives a good performance considering the scripts, direction and polish the films lacked. It's a shame Dalton didn't do a couple more.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,993Quartermasters
I'm convinced that Craigger can/will give a fully-rounded performance in #23---i.e., the "fully realized Bond"---if only the studio tossers can get their s**t together X-(
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"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I think Dalton had a lot going for him however I think those two films he did, despite the mundaity of them, showed us the kind of James Bond he is. He's swarthy and serious but he just did not see the humor about playing James Bond. When I watch The Living Daylights there is a few times where it seems Dalton doesn't seem to get the joke. I would like to have seen one more film with an interesting plot tailored to Dalton as 007 but that would have been enough IMO.
Just to add my penny's worth:
1. Fleming would have thoroughly enjoyed the trappings of 007's success (e.g. money)
2. Fleming would be disappointed with almost all the films. I think probably FRWL and OHMSS would appeal to him the most. TB is fairly close his novel, but was always McClory's pet project, so I think he'd have disdain for that one. GF might tickle his fancy. He'd cringe at CR because the crucial element of Bond's world weariness is missing.
3. Fleming would probably enjoy Dalton's Bond the best as he is the most anti-authoritarian (this is not the same as anti-establishment) Dalton's performance in TLD is IMO one of the best performances of an actor playing Bond; but he only gives us fits and starts in LTK.
4. Fleming would probably dislike all the "new" Bond adventures (e.g. Brosnan's 4, TMWTGG, TSWLM, MR, YOLT, OP - LTK, QOS) because they are so fundamentally different to his novels.
Just to add my penny's worth:
1. Fleming would have thoroughly enjoyed the trappings of 007's success (e.g. money)
2. Fleming would be disappointed with almost all the films. I think probably FRWL and OHMSS would appeal to him the most. TB is fairly close his novel, but was always McClory's pet project, so I think he'd have disdain for that one. GF might tickle his fancy. He'd cringe at CR because the crucial element of Bond's world weariness is missing.
3. Fleming would probably enjoy Dalton's Bond the best as he is the most anti-authoritarian (this is not the same as anti-establishment) Dalton's performance in TLD is IMO one of the best performances of an actor playing Bond; but he only gives us fits and starts in LTK.
4. Fleming would probably dislike all the "new" Bond adventures (e.g. Brosnan's 4, TMWTGG, TSWLM, MR, YOLT, OP - LTK, QOS) because they are so fundamentally different to his novels.
I didn't get Bond as world weary in the Casino Royale novel, I thought that eeked out slowly in later novels.
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I didn't get Bond as world weary in the Casino Royale novel, I thought that eeked out slowly in later novels.
I suggest reading the novel again because Bond was very world weary in Casino Royale. Even before he decided to resign, he commented on how the men he killed to earn his Double-0 status were probably not bad people; A key foreshadow for the events late in the novel. Afterwards when he decided to settle down with Vesper it was because his view of the world was totally shattered; He could no longer to turn to his profession as comfort because he didn't know who the villians and heroes were so he turned to Vesper. Finally when she died and he knew about her betrayal, Bond was once again a very disillusioned and decided to return to his profession but with a vow; A vow to destroy SMERSH because they manipulated people against their own countries. All this extentialism was unfortunately ignored in the film adaptation; Fleming's brilliant novel was warped into a dumb action film with a minor love story.
Dalton's performance in TLD is IMO one of the best performances of an actor playing Bond; but he only gives us fits and starts in LTK.
I think it was inspired that The Living Daylights was chosen as Dalton's first. Right after the PTS you get a feeling of Dalton's character. He argues with Saunders about arriving late because he is tired, tired of the killing he has to do. In those few moments, Bond arriving in a tux and looking at Kara, you understand why Bond loves his vices; It's a comfort for what he has to do. Now if only the rest of the film was that smart, I would have enjoyed it a lot more.
I didn't get Bond as world weary in the Casino Royale novel, I thought that eeked out slowly in later novels.
I suggest reading the novel again because Bond was very world weary in Casino Royale. Even before he decided to resign, he commented on how the men he killed to earn his Double-0 status were probably not bad people; A key foreshadow for the events late in the novel. Afterwards when he decided to settle down with Vesper it was because his view of the world was totally shattered; He could no longer to turn to his profession as comfort because he didn't know who the villians and heroes were so he turned to Vesper. Finally when she died and he knew about her betrayal, Bond was once again a very disillusioned and decided to return to his profession but with a vow; A vow to destroy SMERSH because they manipulated people against their own countries. All this extentialism was unfortunately ignored in the film adaptation; Fleming's brilliant novel was warped into a dumb action film with a minor love story.
Thanks for expanding my point, Ricardo.
Sometimes I'm so close to the source novel, I forget to enunciate my points!
That's exactly the feeling I get. It doesn't make me feel the movie is any less of an achievement, but the producers missed a trick by cranking up the action and forgetting the people. While the love story in CR is strong, it is very superficial and ultimately Vesper is a rather shallow lover. That was not the case in Fleming's novel, where Vesper is a tormented individual, as much at odds with the "cowboys and indians" as Bond. Her weakness is resolved by her suicide; Bond's strength is to rise above the tragedy. It reaffirms his belief in good and evil.
It must also be remembered that although Fleming loved Bond, he was growing rather tired of him towards the end of his own life. Therefore, had he lived, he may not have been quite so defensive about recent adaptations as we all might think.
Now I have heard something along those lines but the impression I gathered is he really could not come up with anymore stories. Personally I think it would been terrific if Fleming had killed Bond in You Only Live Twice.
Okay so I looked up how Fleming regarded the future of James Bond when he was writing Golden Gun. He did say that it was going to be last Bond because he felt he ran of ideas.
Yes, however, he was writting a new short story according to John Pearson.
"And if I told you that I'm from the Ministry of Defence?" James Bond - The Property of a Lady
As something of an international politics nerd, in response to the statement that "Fleming would be appalled by the antiamericanism in QOS;"
You might be surprised. From what I've read by him, Fleming's more than a little iffy about the United States. Okay, no surprise there; no superpower likes to be replaced. But what really surprised me when reading "For Your Eyes Only" was how hostile he was to American backed dictators like Batista (portrayed as a Nazi sympathizer and a Mafia thug), and the fact that he actually seems to have more sympathy for Castro's side of the struggle. I think there's also a line in Golden Gun to the effect that if the Americans would just ease up on Castro, "all the steam would let out of the little man."
It's not at all what I expected from Fleming, but it's there. And there are some echoes of it Quantum of Solace.
I am glad that someone has finally admitted the QoS had ani-american sentiments. Ian Fleming admitted in Dec 1964 that Bond was "centre-left" in his ideology. However, none of the examples you have provided have come anywhere close to the anti-americanisms in both CR and QoS.
QoS is probably one of the most leftwing movies in the genre.
"And if I told you that I'm from the Ministry of Defence?" James Bond - The Property of a Lady
Now I have heard something along those lines but the impression I gathered is he really could not come up with anymore stories. Personally I think it would been terrific if Fleming had killed Bond in You Only Live Twice.
Okay so I looked up how Fleming regarded the future of James Bond when he was writing Golden Gun. He did say that it was going to be last Bond because he felt he ran of ideas.
Yes, however, he was writting a new short story according to John Pearson.
I see. Well I guess he must have meant his last novel. Usually when he wrote the short stories he didn't have to worry too much about the villians or their schemes and that usually is the hardest parts to come up with for a Bond novel.
As something of an international politics nerd, in response to the statement that "Fleming would be appalled by the antiamericanism in QOS;"
You might be surprised. From what I've read by him, Fleming's more than a little iffy about the United States. Okay, no surprise there; no superpower likes to be replaced. But what really surprised me when reading "For Your Eyes Only" was how hostile he was to American backed dictators like Batista (portrayed as a Nazi sympathizer and a Mafia thug), and the fact that he actually seems to have more sympathy for Castro's side of the struggle. I think there's also a line in Golden Gun to the effect that if the Americans would just ease up on Castro, "all the steam would let out of the little man."
It's not at all what I expected from Fleming, but it's there. And there are some echoes of it Quantum of Solace.
I am glad that someone has finally admitted the QoS had ani-american sentiments. Ian Fleming admitted in Dec 1964 that Bond was "centre-left" in his ideology. However, none of the examples you have provided have come anywhere close to the anti-americanisms in both CR and QoS.
QoS is probably one of the most leftwing movies in the genre.
It's pretty obvious in QoS but where do you see it in CR ?
As something of an international politics nerd, in response to the statement that "Fleming would be appalled by the antiamericanism in QOS;"
You might be surprised. From what I've read by him, Fleming's more than a little iffy about the United States. Okay, no surprise there; no superpower likes to be replaced. But what really surprised me when reading "For Your Eyes Only" was how hostile he was to American backed dictators like Batista (portrayed as a Nazi sympathizer and a Mafia thug), and the fact that he actually seems to have more sympathy for Castro's side of the struggle. I think there's also a line in Golden Gun to the effect that if the Americans would just ease up on Castro, "all the steam would let out of the little man."
It's not at all what I expected from Fleming, but it's there. And there are some echoes of it Quantum of Solace.
I am glad that someone has finally admitted the QoS had ani-american sentiments. Ian Fleming admitted in Dec 1964 that Bond was "centre-left" in his ideology. However, none of the examples you have provided have come anywhere close to the anti-americanisms in both CR and QoS.
QoS is probably one of the most leftwing movies in the genre.
It's pretty obvious in QoS but where do you see it in CR ?
Again, the US being the amoral non-partner of Bond which was far cry from the novel.
"And if I told you that I'm from the Ministry of Defence?" James Bond - The Property of a Lady
I am glad that someone has finally admitted the QoS had ani-american sentiments. Ian Fleming admitted in Dec 1964 that Bond was "centre-left" in his ideology. However, none of the examples you have provided have come anywhere close to the anti-americanisms in both CR and QoS.
QoS is probably one of the most leftwing movies in the genre.
It's pretty obvious in QoS but where do you see it in CR ?
Again, the US being the amoral non-partner of Bond which was far cry from the novel.
I didn't see the CIA being portrayed "amoral" really. I think Leiter was brushed aside just like Mathis, they were pretty much non-entities in the film.
Maybe its just me but I never quite believed Bond was as dark and brooding as people like TD and DC have potrayed him. Don't get me wrong, I know Bond had a dark side and rarely told jokes. I certainly think TD and DC are both closer to Ian Fleming than some1 like RM but to me they don't have quite as much "verve" as Bond should have. Although Bond didn't tell jokes he did laugh, sometimes used the word "chap" and clearly enjoyed indulging in the finer things in life.
IMO the IF Bond was someone you envied as well as someone you could identify with. For some reason I didn't always get that impression with TD or DC.
I know he gets a lot of criticism (maybe he isn't closest to the novel) but IMO Ian Fleming would have admired Pierce Brosnan's portrayal (even if he may not have always liked some of the gadget heavy movies). He was someone who was troubled but charasmatic and vulnerable but worldly-wise. Also, he had that "verve" and was close to the Niven like figure IF wanted.
I think he would have unsatisfied. They are not dark enough. Diamonds Are Forever has so much potentiale. I like the movie but I see the flaws. There a a few. Had Ian Fleming seen any of Roger Moores Bond movies, I think he would have killed Moore. Dalton really nailed it. A pity he didn't do more. Craig, apart from playing Bond as being rather stupid, is quite good as well.
Comments
I don't see anything particularly anti-american about these statements, Fleming was very blunt with all parts of the globe. Even Britain was not immune. littered through out Fleming's books he has characters, also I believe Bond himself, make statements about the UK's diminishing role in world politics. Casino Royale questions the very nature of Bond's occupation, how the heroes and villians get all mixed up and that line between good and evil is blurred. In general, behind the bravado, the James Bond books are very existential and address all sorts of issues.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
1. Fleming would have thoroughly enjoyed the trappings of 007's success (e.g. money)
2. Fleming would be disappointed with almost all the films. I think probably FRWL and OHMSS would appeal to him the most. TB is fairly close his novel, but was always McClory's pet project, so I think he'd have disdain for that one. GF might tickle his fancy. He'd cringe at CR because the crucial element of Bond's world weariness is missing.
3. Fleming would probably enjoy Dalton's Bond the best as he is the most anti-authoritarian (this is not the same as anti-establishment) Dalton's performance in TLD is IMO one of the best performances of an actor playing Bond; but he only gives us fits and starts in LTK.
4. Fleming would probably dislike all the "new" Bond adventures (e.g. Brosnan's 4, TMWTGG, TSWLM, MR, YOLT, OP - LTK, QOS) because they are so fundamentally different to his novels.
I didn't get Bond as world weary in the Casino Royale novel, I thought that eeked out slowly in later novels.
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I suggest reading the novel again because Bond was very world weary in Casino Royale. Even before he decided to resign, he commented on how the men he killed to earn his Double-0 status were probably not bad people; A key foreshadow for the events late in the novel. Afterwards when he decided to settle down with Vesper it was because his view of the world was totally shattered; He could no longer to turn to his profession as comfort because he didn't know who the villians and heroes were so he turned to Vesper. Finally when she died and he knew about her betrayal, Bond was once again a very disillusioned and decided to return to his profession but with a vow; A vow to destroy SMERSH because they manipulated people against their own countries. All this extentialism was unfortunately ignored in the film adaptation; Fleming's brilliant novel was warped into a dumb action film with a minor love story.
I think it was inspired that The Living Daylights was chosen as Dalton's first. Right after the PTS you get a feeling of Dalton's character. He argues with Saunders about arriving late because he is tired, tired of the killing he has to do. In those few moments, Bond arriving in a tux and looking at Kara, you understand why Bond loves his vices; It's a comfort for what he has to do. Now if only the rest of the film was that smart, I would have enjoyed it a lot more.
Thanks for expanding my point, Ricardo.
Sometimes I'm so close to the source novel, I forget to enunciate my points!
That's exactly the feeling I get. It doesn't make me feel the movie is any less of an achievement, but the producers missed a trick by cranking up the action and forgetting the people. While the love story in CR is strong, it is very superficial and ultimately Vesper is a rather shallow lover. That was not the case in Fleming's novel, where Vesper is a tormented individual, as much at odds with the "cowboys and indians" as Bond. Her weakness is resolved by her suicide; Bond's strength is to rise above the tragedy. It reaffirms his belief in good and evil.
Yes, however, he was writting a new short story according to John Pearson.
I am glad that someone has finally admitted the QoS had ani-american sentiments. Ian Fleming admitted in Dec 1964 that Bond was "centre-left" in his ideology. However, none of the examples you have provided have come anywhere close to the anti-americanisms in both CR and QoS.
QoS is probably one of the most leftwing movies in the genre.
I see. Well I guess he must have meant his last novel. Usually when he wrote the short stories he didn't have to worry too much about the villians or their schemes and that usually is the hardest parts to come up with for a Bond novel.
It's pretty obvious in QoS but where do you see it in CR ?
Again, the US being the amoral non-partner of Bond which was far cry from the novel.
I didn't see the CIA being portrayed "amoral" really. I think Leiter was brushed aside just like Mathis, they were pretty much non-entities in the film.
IMO the IF Bond was someone you envied as well as someone you could identify with. For some reason I didn't always get that impression with TD or DC.
I know he gets a lot of criticism (maybe he isn't closest to the novel) but IMO Ian Fleming would have admired Pierce Brosnan's portrayal (even if he may not have always liked some of the gadget heavy movies). He was someone who was troubled but charasmatic and vulnerable but worldly-wise. Also, he had that "verve" and was close to the Niven like figure IF wanted.