I don't think Dalton ever "failed", I just don't think the world was ready for such a radical departure. Roger Moore was known to be the comedic, over the top, fun Bond. The tone of the films changed drastically between Moore and Dalton. If there had been a long gap between the movies, then theres a very real possibility that more serious personality of Dalton would be well received by a mass audience. The Craig films succeed because they're created in an era where darker, grittier themes tend to thrive. I genuinely don't think I could ever say Dalton was to blame, the movies were just a head of their time.
Reasons why the Dalton movies sucked but for the following reasons he has nothing to do with it:
- the director was crap
- his co-actors where crap
- the audiences where crap
- the producers where crap
- the writers where crap because they had Moore still in mind
- the budget was crap
- the world was crap
- the books envisioned a weary and weepy Bond so the books where crap
- the crappy gadgets and one-liners where all Roger's fault - or the audience's fault because they still wanted them.
- the math was crap because the budget - box office ratio was really great
Feel free to continue - I can see many more lines in this thread
oh yes - and the material of these balloons was also crap
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The other actors had enough starpower to pull out decent movies under similar circumstances.
In Germany we say that the fish starts stinking from the head, so we should ask, how much the head actor had to do with it.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
- the crappy gadgets and one-liners where all Roger's fault - or the audience's fault because they still wanted them.
To be honest they have be some truth in that. We were forcefed the crappy oneliners and gadgets so when they were removed we wondered why. We were spoonfed Rog crapola for so long (Mind you, I liked every one of his films)
To be honest I don't really care if others think its crap.If I like the film, if it fits with my sensibilities then I will defend it to death
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
The other actors had enough starpower to pull out decent movies under similar circumstances.
In Germany we say that the fish starts stinking from the head, so we should ask, how much the head actor had to do with it.
In the U.S. we have another saying: The IQ of the general population is roughly the square root of eight hundred and ten.
The other actors had enough starpower to pull out decent movies under similar circumstances.
In Germany we say that the fish starts stinking from the head, so we should ask, how much the head actor had to do with it.
In the U.S. we have another saying: The IQ of the general population is roughly the square root of eight hundred and ten.
There's a lot of truth in that. About the Craig=Literary Bond idea, I doubt if more than 5% of audiences has ever read a line of Fleming and IMO that percentage is generous. I think the successful reception of Craig as Bond can be credited to making Bond, for the very first time, someone the everyman can relate to and picture himself being...and likewise, for the first time, there's a Bond that women find sexy because he's a hunk they can easily find on the streets. Compare this to the other Bonds who are larger than life, most especially in terms of class. Dalton is different, however. Since he attempted to go back to the page, I think that audiences found him too abstract, i.e., "bland." This is why I think it's too much to expect wide audience acceptance for Literary Bond and why Craig is not Literary Bond as some fans like to think.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
Dalton is different, however. Since he attempted to go back to the page, I think that audiences found him too abstract, i.e., "bland." This is why I think it's too much to expect wide audience acceptance for Literary Bond and why Craig is not Literary Bond as some fans like to think.
There's a lot of truth in that. About the Craig=Literary Bond idea, I doubt if more than 5% of audiences has ever read a line of Fleming and IMO that percentage is generous. I think the successful reception of Craig as Bond can be credited to making Bond, for the very first time, someone the everyman can relate to and picture himself being...and likewise, for the first time, there's a Bond that women find sexy because he's a hunk they can easily find on the streets. Compare this to the other Bonds who are larger than life, most especially in terms of class. Dalton is different, however. Since he attempted to go back to the page, I think that audiences found him too abstract, i.e., "bland." This is why I think it's too much to expect wide audience acceptance for Literary Bond and why Craig is not Literary Bond as some fans like to think.
Perfect summary of what Craig is, why he is, and what he isn't
[q. Dalton is different, however. Since he attempted to go back to the page, I think that audiences found him too abstract, i.e., "bland." This is why I think it's too much to expect wide audience acceptance for Literary Bond and why Craig is not Literary Bond as some fans like to think.
Some people see Shakespeare on TV, get bored with making the effort of understanding him....and switch over.
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
I can't add much to this. Most of you have more or less did a good job of explaining why Dalton's films (not Dalton himself) did not come out of the starting gate both times and wow the crowds. Though I enjoy both films, they were not strong enough stories IMO to introduce a new actor. GE would have been much better and more suited for Tim's character and would have done just as well. At least I still have many scenes from his films (such as the assassination attempt at the beginning of TLD) that make me feel as though I'm watching Fleming's creation on the screen.
Found this great conversation by bad guys on Buffy The Vampire Slayer (Season 6, Life Serial):
Andrew: We are really super villains now, like . . . like Dr. No.
Warren: Yeah, back when Bond was Connery and the movies were decent.
Jonathon: (scoffing) Who remembers Connery? I mean, Roger Moore was smooth.
Warren: You’re insane. You’re short, and you’re insane.
Andrew: I like Timothy Dalton!
Warren: Connery is Bond. He had style.
Jonathan: Yeah, but Roger Moore was funny.
Warren: Moonraker? The gondola turns into a hovercraft? It’s retarded. Besides, the guy had, like, no edge.
Andrew: Dalton had edge. In License to Kill he was a rogue agent. That’s edgy. (Warren and Jonathon look at him incredulously). And he was amazing in The Living Daylights.
Jonathan: Yeah, which was written for Roger Moore, not Timothy Dalton!
Warren: Okay, this is stupid! We’re wasting time. End of discussion. (Jonathon and Andrew nod their agreement, turn to their consoles, and begin typing)…I mean, there’s a shot of like, pigeons, doing double takes when the gondola blasted by! Moonraker . . is inexcusable. (Andrew and Jonathan stare at him).
Connery is the only actor in the bunch.
Andrew: Timothy Dalton should get an Oscar and (yells) beat Sean Connery over the head with it!
Reasons why the Dalton movies sucked but for the following reasons he has nothing to do with it:
- the director was crap
- his co-actors where crap
- the audiences where crap
- the producers where crap
- the writers where crap because they had Moore still in mind
- the budget was crap
- the world was crap
- the books envisioned a weary and weepy Bond so the books where crap
- the crappy gadgets and one-liners where all Roger's fault - or the audience's fault because they still wanted them.
- the math was crap because the budget - box office ratio was really great
Feel free to continue - I can see many more lines in this thread
oh yes - and the material of these balloons was also crap
How about a thread entitled "Why It's Crap to Say the Dalton Films Are Crap"? )
Frank- Let break out a classic Bond! Craig?
Nigel- Stone Cold Bond? Nah. I know we always do it, but let's go Literary again!
Frank- The Daltonator.
Nigel- Never gets old, dude.
Frank- Die, Russian balloon!
See? Dalton will be more respected as time passes. -{
Dalton is different, however. Since he attempted to go back to the page, I think that audiences found him too abstract, i.e., "bland." This is why I think it's too much to expect wide audience acceptance for Literary Bond and why Craig is not Literary Bond as some fans like to think.
Yet Connery certainly nailed 'Literary Bond' in FRWL and, to an extent, Dr No and Thunderball; as did Lazenby in OHMSS. Many of the other Bonds also successfully reflected elements of Fleming's novels alongside Dalton. Truth be told, what works on the page can rarely be translated successfully to the screen, by any actor.
Speaking personally, I loved Dalton's PTS in TLD but the rest of the film didn't live up to it; while no-one can lay that squarely at Dalton's door, I do think that retrospectively he was maybe just a little bit too stiff compared to his peers... Something about the way he enunciates his words a bit too crisply, it's a wee bit too theatrical for me... He's the one Bond I didn't long to be.
Sorry if that's harsh, I love all Bond films and would rather watch a Dalton Bond than almost any other film. -{
I am going to share a secret. What I am about to write is the most accurate metric for us all to agree who the best Bonds are with regard to the public. ) Mind your answers to two simple questions posed by this scenario:
You are at an outdoor party.
1) Which Bond (actor in character) would you rather share a beer with and hold a conversation with at the party.
Just then, the party erupts in gunfire.
2) Which Bond (actor in character) would you prefer to be there to protect you?
If you answered the same person for both questions, that is the superior Bond. THAT is the crux of the character: 1 part immense charm, 1 part stone cold killer, and shaken over ice.
So why in a battle of the Bonds do I think Craig comes out ahead (even though we love Dalton's portrayal)?
Because I think Craig beats Dalton on the first question, the charm front.
I do think Craig also edges out Dalton as the finer actor. I am reminded by that line in CR, "made you feel it, did he?" Craig has always made me feel it. He is more expressive when he needs to be, his serious pout face always conveys more than it seems at the surface, delivers his lines with more depth and range. All this wraps together any might lead to the intangible fact that at least to most, Craig is simply more likable than Dalton.
As everyone said, the stories, supporting cast, direction, and the script will also affect the tone and mood of the portrayal, but I think Dalton would not have worked the same in CR or Skyfall.
Which means he was totally successful.
It's been said many many times that if your'e watching Bond and you'd like to be him, you aren't really watching Bond.
Comments
I think, that we need a new thread titeled:
Reasons why the Dalton movies sucked but for the following reasons he has nothing to do with it:
- the director was crap
- his co-actors where crap
- the audiences where crap
- the producers where crap
- the writers where crap because they had Moore still in mind
- the budget was crap
- the world was crap
- the books envisioned a weary and weepy Bond so the books where crap
- the crappy gadgets and one-liners where all Roger's fault - or the audience's fault because they still wanted them.
- the math was crap because the budget - box office ratio was really great
Feel free to continue - I can see many more lines in this thread
oh yes - and the material of these balloons was also crap
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
That's because it's true.
The other actors had enough starpower to pull out decent movies under similar circumstances.
In Germany we say that the fish starts stinking from the head, so we should ask, how much the head actor had to do with it.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
/Thread.
To be honest they have be some truth in that. We were forcefed the crappy oneliners and gadgets so when they were removed we wondered why. We were spoonfed Rog crapola for so long (Mind you, I liked every one of his films)
To be honest I don't really care if others think its crap.If I like the film, if it fits with my sensibilities then I will defend it to death
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
There's a lot of truth in that. About the Craig=Literary Bond idea, I doubt if more than 5% of audiences has ever read a line of Fleming and IMO that percentage is generous. I think the successful reception of Craig as Bond can be credited to making Bond, for the very first time, someone the everyman can relate to and picture himself being...and likewise, for the first time, there's a Bond that women find sexy because he's a hunk they can easily find on the streets. Compare this to the other Bonds who are larger than life, most especially in terms of class. Dalton is different, however. Since he attempted to go back to the page, I think that audiences found him too abstract, i.e., "bland." This is why I think it's too much to expect wide audience acceptance for Literary Bond and why Craig is not Literary Bond as some fans like to think.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Perfect summary of what Craig is, why he is, and what he isn't
-{
Some people see Shakespeare on TV, get bored with making the effort of understanding him....and switch over.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Found this great conversation by bad guys on Buffy The Vampire Slayer (Season 6, Life Serial):
Andrew: We are really super villains now, like . . . like Dr. No.
Warren: Yeah, back when Bond was Connery and the movies were decent.
Jonathon: (scoffing) Who remembers Connery? I mean, Roger Moore was smooth.
Warren: You’re insane. You’re short, and you’re insane.
Andrew: I like Timothy Dalton!
Warren: Connery is Bond. He had style.
Jonathan: Yeah, but Roger Moore was funny.
Warren: Moonraker? The gondola turns into a hovercraft? It’s retarded. Besides, the guy had, like, no edge.
Andrew: Dalton had edge. In License to Kill he was a rogue agent. That’s edgy. (Warren and Jonathon look at him incredulously). And he was amazing in The Living Daylights.
Jonathan: Yeah, which was written for Roger Moore, not Timothy Dalton!
Warren: Okay, this is stupid! We’re wasting time. End of discussion. (Jonathon and Andrew nod their agreement, turn to their consoles, and begin typing)…I mean, there’s a shot of like, pigeons, doing double takes when the gondola blasted by! Moonraker . . is inexcusable. (Andrew and Jonathan stare at him).
Connery is the only actor in the bunch.
Andrew: Timothy Dalton should get an Oscar and (yells) beat Sean Connery over the head with it!
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
How about a thread entitled "Why It's Crap to Say the Dalton Films Are Crap"?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
An opinion that's prevalent only in the Higgins-verse!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
A conversation 30 years from now:
Frank- Let break out a classic Bond! Craig?
Nigel- Stone Cold Bond? Nah. I know we always do it, but let's go Literary again!
Frank- The Daltonator.
Nigel- Never gets old, dude.
Frank- Die, Russian balloon!
See? Dalton will be more respected as time passes. -{
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Yet Connery certainly nailed 'Literary Bond' in FRWL and, to an extent, Dr No and Thunderball; as did Lazenby in OHMSS. Many of the other Bonds also successfully reflected elements of Fleming's novels alongside Dalton. Truth be told, what works on the page can rarely be translated successfully to the screen, by any actor.
Speaking personally, I loved Dalton's PTS in TLD but the rest of the film didn't live up to it; while no-one can lay that squarely at Dalton's door, I do think that retrospectively he was maybe just a little bit too stiff compared to his peers... Something about the way he enunciates his words a bit too crisply, it's a wee bit too theatrical for me... He's the one Bond I didn't long to be.
Sorry if that's harsh, I love all Bond films and would rather watch a Dalton Bond than almost any other film. -{
You are at an outdoor party.
1) Which Bond (actor in character) would you rather share a beer with and hold a conversation with at the party.
Just then, the party erupts in gunfire.
2) Which Bond (actor in character) would you prefer to be there to protect you?
If you answered the same person for both questions, that is the superior Bond. THAT is the crux of the character: 1 part immense charm, 1 part stone cold killer, and shaken over ice.
So why in a battle of the Bonds do I think Craig comes out ahead (even though we love Dalton's portrayal)?
Because I think Craig beats Dalton on the first question, the charm front.
I do think Craig also edges out Dalton as the finer actor. I am reminded by that line in CR, "made you feel it, did he?" Craig has always made me feel it. He is more expressive when he needs to be, his serious pout face always conveys more than it seems at the surface, delivers his lines with more depth and range. All this wraps together any might lead to the intangible fact that at least to most, Craig is simply more likable than Dalton.
As everyone said, the stories, supporting cast, direction, and the script will also affect the tone and mood of the portrayal, but I think Dalton would not have worked the same in CR or Skyfall.
My two cents. -{ -{
It's been said many many times that if your'e watching Bond and you'd like to be him, you aren't really watching Bond.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS