LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,992Quartermasters
Well said, sir.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,652MI6 Agent
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
My novel (set in 1941) was criticised by such a person for being 'misogynistic' because of the villain's attitude toward and treatment of women, when in fact the piece features two strong female characters---arguably to the point of not being entirely period accurate.
This would be an angle the OP should definitely explore: how an author/screenwriter gets blamed for creating a character with these objectionable attitudes. Examples to which the Bond books and movies can be compared:
- the Dire Straits hit "Money For Nothing", where the character uses a gay slur
- the Randy Newman song "Rednecks" and the Tom Petty song "Rebels"
- "The Great Gatsby", where Nick Carraway as narrator makes disparaging references to the nose and accent of Meyer Wolfsheim, and Daisy Buchanan declares of her daughter, "That's the best thing a girl can be in this world, a beautiful little fool".
Going deeper down the rabbit hole, which is the more offensive aspect of J.W. Pepper: Pepper's attitude or the stereotype of the "dumb racist Southerner"?
just slightly off dead centre , when my son was doing his training for the MET, he came top of his class ,in the R,S,H,
awareness, a fact that made my wife and I proud,that he had taken our values to heart, :x
[q
Going deeper down the rabbit hole, which is the more offensive aspect of J.W. Pepper: Pepper's attitude or the stereotype of the "dumb racist Southerner"?
J W Pepper is a fool. The black men should be taken seriously, particularly Adam - but you are laughing at him, not with him..
1. For Your Eyes Only 2. The Living Daylights 3 From Russia with Love 4. Casino Royale 5. OHMSS 6. Skyfall
[Yes, I agree one cannot fault past generations for their mores and beliefs,
Yes you can, it's quite easy, really. )
"Easy" as in, many find it easy to judge sensibilities of the past through the lens of modern standards,
Easy as in it's like religion or politics or anything else. Remove your ego from the equation, then do the math. Stupid sh*t in the past, stupid sh*t right now, stupid sh*t we will be doing... the trick is to not give a damn about convention. If you dabble in convention it's probably okay. If you live it, it's more likely than not you're effed-up. )
In all my years on this Earth there are two constants I've found: 1) you're never more that a few feet from a spider somewhere, & 2) there's always another idiot trying to make you buy his, hers, or their bullsh*t. Anyone going through this life needs to THINK. Blindly accepting what you're told is what makes cult members.
"Easy" as in, many find it easy to judge sensibilities of the past through the lens of modern standards,
Easy as in it's like religion or politics or anything else. Remove your ego from the equation, then do the math. Stupid sh*t in the past, stupid sh*t right now, stupid sh*t we will be doing... the trick is to not give a damn about convention. If you dabble in convention it's probably okay. If you live it, it's more likely than not you're effed-up. )
In all my years on this Earth there are two constants I've found: 1) you're never more that a few feet from a spider somewhere, & 2) there's always another idiot trying to make you buy his, hers, or their bullsh*t. Anyone going through this life needs to THINK. Blindly accepting what you're told is what makes cult members.
Then more or less we are in agreement on what "easy" means. It's also interesting to realize that as social standards progress with time, the truism of everyone having an a**hole and opinion will always be. But I'll take it further, it seems the more progressive our society gets, though I speak only for America, the more do people manage to hate and harm each other it seems...so as a member of contemporary society, I for one will take it easy on the less PC generations that came before us. "Go ahead, James, she's due for another slap of good sense" )
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
There's a difference between "faulting" previous generations for sexism, racism, homophobia etc. and doing an academic study of these things. Whether we fault or don't fault older generations for cultural prejudices doesn't mean that those prejudices didn't exist. Exploring these elements, which undoubtedly exist in the bond franchise, doesn't mean we're condemning it. It's just an interesting subject that's also worth exploring for greater cultural understanding.
There's a difference between "faulting" previous generations for sexism, racism, homophobia etc. and doing an academic study of these things. Whether we fault or don't fault older generations for cultural prejudices doesn't mean that those prejudices didn't exist.
I fault contemporary generations for similar things. I WILL fault future generations. Finding fault is the only way to fix it, lest we be blind to what hinders us as a civilization.
There's a difference between "faulting" previous generations for sexism, racism, homophobia etc. and doing an academic study of these things. Whether we fault or don't fault older generations for cultural prejudices doesn't mean that those prejudices didn't exist.
I fault contemporary generations for similar things. I WILL fault future generations. Finding fault is the only way to fix it, lest we be blind to what hinders us as a civilization.
I'm not saying we shouldn't find fault. It just seemed to me that some people on this thread making the "can't fault previous generations for the prejudices cuz different times" argument might have been doing so because they felt defensive about the Bond series. I guess my main point is that it's ok to like something while recognizing the prejudices it espouses.
It just seemed to me that some people on this thread making the "can't fault previous generations for the prejudices cuz different times" argument might have been doing so because they felt defensive about the Bond series.
My overall point is that we're really no less screwed up as a society now than we were in the aforementioned 'unenlightened' times---probably moreso. We've tamped down and corrected some of the prejudices, but others spring up: new intolerances, new narrow-mindedness. As much as we enjoy patting ourselves on the back for our mastery of our language, we're not all that far from the cavemen who fought over watering holes 100,000 years ago.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I will always like James Bond movies, early and modern, even though I do hate sexism,racism and homophobia. They are actually a good example of overcoming such prejudices.
Plus, there are much more extreme examples in movie history. The quality of Leni Riefenstahls' films can't be denied, and yet no one in the right mind accepts their message.
I'm not saying we shouldn't find fault. It just seemed to me that some people on this thread making the "can't fault previous generations for the prejudices cuz different times" argument might have been doing so because they felt defensive about the Bond series. I guess my main point is that it's ok to like something while recognizing the prejudices it espouses.
It just seemed to me that some people on this thread making the "can't fault previous generations for the prejudices cuz different times" argument might have been doing so because they felt defensive about the Bond series.
My overall point is that we're really no less screwed up as a society now than we were in the aforementioned 'unenlightened' times---probably moreso. We've tamped down and corrected some of the prejudices, but others spring up: new intolerances, new narrow-mindedness. As much as we enjoy patting ourselves on the back for our mastery of our language, we're not all that far from the cavemen who fought over watering holes 100,000 years ago.
I completely agree. The popular way to look at history right now is to see us as "moving forward" or progressing toward more and more enlightenment, but that's not really a realistic way of looking at history IMO
The popular way to look at history right now is to see us as "moving forward" or progressing toward more and more enlightenment, but that's not really a realistic way of looking at history IMO
The popular way to look at history right now is to see us as "moving forward" or progressing toward more and more enlightenment, but that's not really a realistic way of looking at history IMO
[q
Going deeper down the rabbit hole, which is the more offensive aspect of J.W. Pepper: Pepper's attitude or the stereotype of the "dumb racist Southerner"?
J W Pepper is a fool. The black men should be taken seriously, particularly Adam - but you are laughing at him, not with him..
Well that's my point. If the cab driver in LALD is written as a "jive talkin' brutha" but Pepper is written as a "drawling incompetent southerner with a brother-in-law named Billy-Bob", is the way the cabbie is written offensive but the way Pepper is written acceptable?
Comments
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Thank you, Loeffs!
This would be an angle the OP should definitely explore: how an author/screenwriter gets blamed for creating a character with these objectionable attitudes. Examples to which the Bond books and movies can be compared:
- the Dire Straits hit "Money For Nothing", where the character uses a gay slur
- the Randy Newman song "Rednecks" and the Tom Petty song "Rebels"
- "The Great Gatsby", where Nick Carraway as narrator makes disparaging references to the nose and accent of Meyer Wolfsheim, and Daisy Buchanan declares of her daughter, "That's the best thing a girl can be in this world, a beautiful little fool".
Going deeper down the rabbit hole, which is the more offensive aspect of J.W. Pepper: Pepper's attitude or the stereotype of the "dumb racist Southerner"?
If you are not doing this, you are behaving badly no matter the time period.
...unless you're a masochist, I guess... ?:)
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
No big secret, if others want to be a*rseholes, that's their
Problem.
awareness, a fact that made my wife and I proud,that he had taken our values to heart, :x
J W Pepper is a fool. The black men should be taken seriously, particularly Adam - but you are laughing at him, not with him..
In all my years on this Earth there are two constants I've found: 1) you're never more that a few feet from a spider somewhere, & 2) there's always another idiot trying to make you buy his, hers, or their bullsh*t. Anyone going through this life needs to THINK. Blindly accepting what you're told is what makes cult members.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I would add to that "even if their least favourite Bond movie is TND and even if Brosnan is their least favourite Bond"
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
And I forgive you for having TND as your third favourite Bond movie. Nothing wrong with Batman&Robin. TND is way worse.
Then more or less we are in agreement on what "easy" means. It's also interesting to realize that as social standards progress with time, the truism of everyone having an a**hole and opinion will always be. But I'll take it further, it seems the more progressive our society gets, though I speak only for America, the more do people manage to hate and harm each other it seems...so as a member of contemporary society, I for one will take it easy on the less PC generations that came before us. "Go ahead, James, she's due for another slap of good sense"
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/wish-i-was-at-disneyland/id1202780413?mt=2
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I'm not saying we shouldn't find fault. It just seemed to me that some people on this thread making the "can't fault previous generations for the prejudices cuz different times" argument might have been doing so because they felt defensive about the Bond series. I guess my main point is that it's ok to like something while recognizing the prejudices it espouses.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/wish-i-was-at-disneyland/id1202780413?mt=2
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
My overall point is that we're really no less screwed up as a society now than we were in the aforementioned 'unenlightened' times---probably moreso. We've tamped down and corrected some of the prejudices, but others spring up: new intolerances, new narrow-mindedness. As much as we enjoy patting ourselves on the back for our mastery of our language, we're not all that far from the cavemen who fought over watering holes 100,000 years ago.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Plus, there are much more extreme examples in movie history. The quality of Leni Riefenstahls' films can't be denied, and yet no one in the right mind accepts their message.
Exactly how I felt.
"Better make that two."
I completely agree. The popular way to look at history right now is to see us as "moving forward" or progressing toward more and more enlightenment, but that's not really a realistic way of looking at history IMO
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/wish-i-was-at-disneyland/id1202780413?mt=2
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/wish-i-was-at-disneyland/id1202780413?mt=2
Probably Media Studies or Film Studies. I wrote about bond in my A-Level Media Studies.
1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby
Well that's my point. If the cab driver in LALD is written as a "jive talkin' brutha" but Pepper is written as a "drawling incompetent southerner with a brother-in-law named Billy-Bob", is the way the cabbie is written offensive but the way Pepper is written acceptable?
"Greatness From Small Beginnings."
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Its true. All that hair lacquer mucked up the climate