Maybe. I'm not a big fan of Goldeneye, which I find to be mostly unimpressive, but I think it got a bounce because Brosnan was in it, and he was the Bond that American audiences in particular had wanted all the way back to the 80s. We'll never know for sure either way. But seven Moore films, three pretty good, combined with the disappointment that Brosnan didn't get the role in 1987 certainly helped set Dalton up for failure. "We," by the way, extends to quite a few of us who were around when Octopussy and A View to a Kill lumbered onto the screens, and "we" left pretty unmoved, though, of course, not everyone will agree.
I agree with some of your points. To look at the other side of the coin of your order, let's look at a few facts and make some assumptions:
Facts:
a) GE is unimpressive
b) Eon Bond film competed with NASA in '83
c) OP did better than NASA. Though OP's revenue would have had a negative impact because of NASA. In short, OP did well despite NASA
d) LTK is the lowest grossing Bond film
e) Adjusted gross MR = $675M, FYEO = $500M
Assumptions:
a) All the scripts were readily available so any film could be made at any time
b) Dalton has the option to start from FYEO
c) Moore retires after MR
Now let's see what could also have happened:
a) '81 - FYEO releases with Dalton. It is a hit but people are unsure about the change in tone. It would have grossed considerably less than MR so questions over Dalton would be there (For comparison - LALD grossed more than YOLT, OHMSS and DAF)
b) '83 - NASA and GE release. GE is unimpressive (see facts) and gets overshadow by NASA (when OP actually did better than NASA - see facts).This casts a doubt on EON's Bond or appears as if NASA would have overshadowed EON's Bond franchise
c) '85 - LTK comes out. It does weakly at the BO too (see facts) .... This vindicates the questions raised against EON's Bond franchise and Dalton .... The daggers would be drawn
d) The 4th Dalton - TLD, which I guess is next on your list, would not have materialized. The 15th Bond film could have taken a longer time to hit the screens (or even not happened as risks could have appeared greater than returns to the producers signaling a possible end to the franchise)
If I am not wrong, Dalton was considered for OHMSS as well. So if you are a die hard Dalton fan, a more viable line of thinking would be that Dalton would have accepted that role and continued on .....
As far as I know, there was not the shadow of a doubt that Moore would do FYEO and OP - besides some bluffing for Roger's paycheck - particularly after the huge hits TSWLM and MR!
He owned the role maybe more than Connery at that time.
So all mindplays about Dalton entering FYEO or OP have no substance.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Anyone watching Penny Dreadful, couldn't help but be impressed with
Dalton. ! {[]
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
PPK 7.65mmSaratoga Springs NY USAPosts: 1,230MI6 Agent
I remember Robert Davi saying in Everything Or Nothing: The Untold Story of 007, that a third movie would have helped the general public accept Timothy Dalton as James Bond. I fully agree since history had soon that both Connery and Moore's third films had the biggest impact on box office returns. I am positive that with the right script, Dalton's third film would have been great.
Maybe. I'm not a big fan of Goldeneye, which I find to be mostly unimpressive, but I think it got a bounce because Brosnan was in it, and he was the Bond that American audiences in particular had wanted all the way back to the 80s. We'll never know for sure either way. But seven Moore films, three pretty good, combined with the disappointment that Brosnan didn't get the role in 1987 certainly helped set Dalton up for failure. "We," by the way, extends to quite a few of us who were around when Octopussy and A View to a Kill lumbered onto the screens, and "we" left pretty unmoved, though, of course, not everyone will agree.
I agree with some of your points. To look at the other side of the coin of your order, let's look at a few facts and make some assumptions:
Facts:
a) GE is unimpressive
b) Eon Bond film competed with NASA in '83
c) OP did better than NASA. Though OP's revenue would have had a negative impact because of NASA. In short, OP did well despite NASA
d) LTK is the lowest grossing Bond film
e) Adjusted gross MR = $675M, FYEO = $500M
Assumptions:
a) All the scripts were readily available so any film could be made at any time
b) Dalton has the option to start from FYEO
c) Moore retires after MR
Now let's see what could also have happened:
a) '81 - FYEO releases with Dalton. It is a hit but people are unsure about the change in tone. It would have grossed considerably less than MR so questions over Dalton would be there (For comparison - LALD grossed more than YOLT, OHMSS and DAF)
b) '83 - NASA and GE release. GE is unimpressive (see facts) and gets overshadow by NASA (when OP actually did better than NASA - see facts).This casts a doubt on EON's Bond or appears as if NASA would have overshadowed EON's Bond franchise
c) '85 - LTK comes out. It does weakly at the BO too (see facts) .... This vindicates the questions raised against EON's Bond franchise and Dalton .... The daggers would be drawn
d) The 4th Dalton - TLD, which I guess is next on your list, would not have materialized. The 15th Bond film could have taken a longer time to hit the screens (or even not happened as risks could have appeared greater than returns to the producers signaling a possible end to the franchise)
If I am not wrong, Dalton was considered for OHMSS as well. So if you are a die hard Dalton fan, a more viable line of thinking would be that Dalton would have accepted that role and continued on .....
{[]
What and miss all that cheesy Bafoonery, Clown suits, and terrible fisticuffs, what a terrible idea. It's a shame he turned it down as he thought he was too young. In my alternative Bondinverse he went right the way through until GE which could have been 3 years earlier.
Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
The fundamental problem with daltons third film - love him, like him or loathe him - is that LTK is the film he wanted to make and it was the one fans didn't want to see. Every interview with him suggests that he wouldn't have wanted to make a film like goldeneye (imagine him in the tank scene!).
And I don't think this is a matter of right place, wrong time. Dalton interpretation of bond is very different from Craig's. Although he does show some signs of humanity Craig's bond is still more ruthless badass than the haunted sensibility of dalton.
So a dalton third film? Only if he was chasing the money
Well, GE couldn't have been made in the eighties. The plot was a post-cold war story, so 90' would have been the earilest that story would have worked. Instead Moore should have been spared filming AVTAK. A Dalton Bond in the early 90's would have been nice.
Well, GE couldn't have been made in the eighties. The plot was a post-cold war story, so 90' would have been the earilest that story would have worked. Instead Moore should have been spared filming AVTAK. A Dalton Bond in the early 90's would have been nice.
I'd agree that Moore should have been spared AVTAK but that's another film that Dalton wouldn't have wanted to make. You just can't have a sensitive, vulnerable hit-man character running for an extended series of films. By the third Bourne, for example, i was more-or-less shouting at the screen "just get on with it or get over it". And then it stopped
I think Dalton's popularity (for those that really like him) is BECAUSE he only did two. I think an extended run would only have highlighted his deficiencies as a leading man, making Bond a niche vehicle. Connery, Moore, Brosnan and Craigh - love 'em or hate 'em - are all "film stars". Dalton wasn't before Bond, wasn't during Bond and wasn't after Bond
Well, GE couldn't have been made in the eighties. The plot was a post-cold war story, so 90' would have been the earilest that story would have worked. Instead Moore should have been spared filming AVTAK. A Dalton Bond in the early 90's would have been nice.
I'd agree that Moore should have been spared AVTAK but that's another film that Dalton wouldn't have wanted to make. You just can't have a sensitive, vulnerable hit-man character running for an extended series of films. By the third Bourne, for example, i was more-or-less shouting at the screen "just get on with it or get over it". And then it stopped
I think Dalton's popularity (for those that really like him) is BECAUSE he only did two. I think an extended run would only have highlighted his deficiencies as a leading man, making Bond a niche vehicle. Connery, Moore, Brosnan and Craigh - love 'em or hate 'em - are all "film stars". Dalton wasn't before Bond, wasn't during Bond and wasn't after Bond
PS I DO like Dalton, though!
I think that Dalton like Craig would have loosened up over time.LTK was nearly the film that he wanted, but it looked cheap and lacked the production values of a Bond movie.The characterisation was what he wanted. I don't think that Daniel is a 'film star' either in the sense that I think you mean. I see him as a gifted second league character actor (his non Bond career has hardly cemented him outside of Bond) That has not stopped him from being a worthy Bond, and it need not have stymied Dalton either. But we can never know for sure, which is why it's fun to speculate.
Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
I'd agree that Moore should have been spared AVTAK but that's another film that Dalton wouldn't have wanted to make.
AVTAK had the potential to be made in to a darker film to suit Dalton .... The stunt and action potential of the film is very high esp. considering sequences such as in PTS, Eiffel Tower, Zorin's Palace, and GG bridge. With Dalton, I just feel that they would have tried to add more on the stunts and action front including seriousness (including no song played in the background when Bond is snowboarding in the PTS). The exchanges b/w Zorin and Bond could have been a lot darker as well .... With an aging and amicable Moore, it appears as if, AVTAK could have been diluted on its action, stunts and darkness potential
If noting else, at least AVTAK could have gone to Dalton
James St. John Smythe was perfect for Moore, and I really can't picture Dalton doing that character. The scenes with Moore and Macnee together were brilliant. I also don't think Dalton and Stacey would have paired well. Even if there were many changes to AVTAK to better suit Dalton, I think it would have been a weaker start for him than TLD, and it would have negatively impacted his tenure as Bond.
James St. John Smythe was perfect for Moore, and I really can't picture Dalton doing that character. The scenes with Moore and Macnee together were brilliant. I also don't think Dalton and Stacey would have paired well. Even if there were many changes to AVTAK to better suit Dalton, I think it would have been a weaker start for him than TLD, and it would have negatively impacted his tenure as Bond.
You are probably visioning Dalton playing Moore's character page by page. It would have been played differently with Dalton who could well have been James St. John Case
With AVTAK turing in to a different film, it's BO result could have been different too .... And Moore could have gone on a much high note after OP
I think Moore "went on a high note" anyway. even amongst the people who didn't like AVTAK, he's a very popular Bond.
Key words - "MUCH" higher note
"Although its box office reception was excellent, the film's critical response was mostly negative. Rotten Tomatoes currently gives A View to a Kill a 35% "Rotten" rating,which is the lowest rating for the Eon-produced Bond films on the website.
One of the most common criticisms was that Roger Moore was 57 at the time of filming – and had visibly aged in the two years that had passed since Octopussy. The Washington Post critic said "Moore isn't just long in the tooth – he's got tusks, and what looks like an eye job has given him the pie-eyed blankness of a zombie. He's not believable anymore in the action sequences, even less so in the romantic scenes – it's like watching women fall all over Gabby Hayes." .... Sean Connery declared that "Bond should be played by an actor 35, 33 years old. I'm too old. Roger's too old, too!" .... In a December 2007 interview, Roger Moore remarked, "I was only about four hundred years too old for the part."
Moore also stated that, at the time, A View to a Kill was his least favourite film, and mentioned that he was mortified to find out that he was older than his female co-star's mother.
Moore was quoted saying "I was horrified on the last Bond I did. Whole slews of sequences where Christopher Walken was machine-gunning hundreds of people. I said 'That wasn't Bond, those weren't Bond films.' It stopped being what they were all about. You didn't dwell on the blood and the brains spewing all over the place""
^ The last para also shows why AVTAK could have worked better as a Dalton's film
And more power to him!
HTH, there used to be a member on AJB, Jenny Flex Fan (JFF)
God how I miss him and I am glad that you are following his path {[]
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
And more power to him!
HTH, there used to be a member on AJB, Jenny Flex Fan (JFF)
God how I miss him and I am glad that you are following his path {[]
I'll do my best {[]
"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"
Well, GE couldn't have been made in the eighties. The plot was a post-cold war story, so 90' would have been the earilest that story would have worked. Instead Moore should have been spared filming AVTAK. A Dalton Bond in the early 90's would have been nice.
Any script would have been adjusted for the time. In the case of GE, they could easily have made it about the imminent fall of the Berlin Wall (which happened in 1989). The Soviets are still the bad guys, but Trevelyn goes over to play one side against the other. In fact, the Goldeneye satellite and the stealth helicopter would have been an even greater threat because they would have been perceived as an arms race game changer. The circumstances would have been more dire because the Soviets would have been more desperate. Bond's mission "behind enemy lines" might even have been perceived to contribute to the fall of the Soviet Union, though in a fictional universe.
Yes but both of his movies are at the bottom of the barrell 3....
True! However AVTAK's gross is much lower than the avg of RM's other films (Avg gross per film of his first 6 films = $600M). AVTAK is less than 55% of this avg, so it can be deduced that AVTAK could have done better as a Dalton film (adapted to Dalton's style)
From your posts, it appears as if you are a RM fanboy .... I love RM too. However, it would not mean that I criticize others to make RM look better and root for everything about and/or from RM (Same would be true for TD fans criticizing RM) .... I like to be as neutral as possible and keep the interest of Bond, the character, at the highest
PS
In a December 2007 interview, Roger Moore remarked, "I was only about four hundred years too old for the part." Moore also stated that, at the time, A View to a Kill was his least favourite film, and mentioned that he was mortified to find out that he was older than his female co-star's mother.
Moore was quoted saying "I was horrified on the last Bond I did. Whole slews of sequences where Christopher Walken was machine-gunning hundreds of people. I said 'That wasn't Bond, those weren't Bond films.' It stopped being what they were all about. You didn't dwell on the blood and the brains spewing all over the place
This again shows that AVTAK could have worked better as a TD film
It may have been mentioned already, but IMO AVTAK could never have worked as a Dalton film.It simply is a typical Moore (not negative) movie.If you were to alter it in favour of Dalton, a lot of things would have to be changed and I mean A LOT!
starting with the Moore-humour, the character names-wordplay, Bond wrestling naked with May Day....
aswell I believe that Walken as Zorin would have been too big for a new actor in the role, he would have stolen the show.
I think Moore's age had nothing to do with the BO-success, he was Widely accepted as Bind back then.
so to sum it up changing AVTAK into a Dalton film would be like changing DAD into a Craig film.
"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"
Comments
I agree with some of your points. To look at the other side of the coin of your order, let's look at a few facts and make some assumptions:
Facts:
a) GE is unimpressive
b) Eon Bond film competed with NASA in '83
c) OP did better than NASA. Though OP's revenue would have had a negative impact because of NASA. In short, OP did well despite NASA
d) LTK is the lowest grossing Bond film
e) Adjusted gross MR = $675M, FYEO = $500M
Assumptions:
a) All the scripts were readily available so any film could be made at any time
b) Dalton has the option to start from FYEO
c) Moore retires after MR
Now let's see what could also have happened:
a) '81 - FYEO releases with Dalton. It is a hit but people are unsure about the change in tone. It would have grossed considerably less than MR so questions over Dalton would be there (For comparison - LALD grossed more than YOLT, OHMSS and DAF)
b) '83 - NASA and GE release. GE is unimpressive (see facts) and gets overshadow by NASA (when OP actually did better than NASA - see facts).This casts a doubt on EON's Bond or appears as if NASA would have overshadowed EON's Bond franchise
c) '85 - LTK comes out. It does weakly at the BO too (see facts) .... This vindicates the questions raised against EON's Bond franchise and Dalton .... The daggers would be drawn
d) The 4th Dalton - TLD, which I guess is next on your list, would not have materialized. The 15th Bond film could have taken a longer time to hit the screens (or even not happened as risks could have appeared greater than returns to the producers signaling a possible end to the franchise)
If I am not wrong, Dalton was considered for OHMSS as well. So if you are a die hard Dalton fan, a more viable line of thinking would be that Dalton would have accepted that role and continued on .....
{[]
He owned the role maybe more than Connery at that time.
So all mindplays about Dalton entering FYEO or OP have no substance.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton. ! {[]
Note:
When adjusted, Roger Moore's biggest hit is LALD. Followed by TSWLM and MR
For Connery, it is TB
So talking about biggest impact on BO, it was 1st for RM and 4th for SC
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
What and miss all that cheesy Bafoonery, Clown suits, and terrible fisticuffs, what a terrible idea. It's a shame he turned it down as he thought he was too young. In my alternative Bondinverse he went right the way through until GE which could have been 3 years earlier.
Remember, you're only Higgins... for life.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
^ Appears as if Dalton was considered for LALD as well
And I don't think this is a matter of right place, wrong time. Dalton interpretation of bond is very different from Craig's. Although he does show some signs of humanity Craig's bond is still more ruthless badass than the haunted sensibility of dalton.
So a dalton third film? Only if he was chasing the money
I'd agree that Moore should have been spared AVTAK but that's another film that Dalton wouldn't have wanted to make. You just can't have a sensitive, vulnerable hit-man character running for an extended series of films. By the third Bourne, for example, i was more-or-less shouting at the screen "just get on with it or get over it". And then it stopped
I think Dalton's popularity (for those that really like him) is BECAUSE he only did two. I think an extended run would only have highlighted his deficiencies as a leading man, making Bond a niche vehicle. Connery, Moore, Brosnan and Craigh - love 'em or hate 'em - are all "film stars". Dalton wasn't before Bond, wasn't during Bond and wasn't after Bond
PS I DO like Dalton, though!
I think that Dalton like Craig would have loosened up over time.LTK was nearly the film that he wanted, but it looked cheap and lacked the production values of a Bond movie.The characterisation was what he wanted. I don't think that Daniel is a 'film star' either in the sense that I think you mean. I see him as a gifted second league character actor (his non Bond career has hardly cemented him outside of Bond) That has not stopped him from being a worthy Bond, and it need not have stymied Dalton either. But we can never know for sure, which is why it's fun to speculate.
AVTAK had the potential to be made in to a darker film to suit Dalton .... The stunt and action potential of the film is very high esp. considering sequences such as in PTS, Eiffel Tower, Zorin's Palace, and GG bridge. With Dalton, I just feel that they would have tried to add more on the stunts and action front including seriousness (including no song played in the background when Bond is snowboarding in the PTS). The exchanges b/w Zorin and Bond could have been a lot darker as well .... With an aging and amicable Moore, it appears as if, AVTAK could have been diluted on its action, stunts and darkness potential
If noting else, at least AVTAK could have gone to Dalton
AVTAK = Moore's best? ?:) .... You are likely to be in the minority on this one
You are probably visioning Dalton playing Moore's character page by page. It would have been played differently with Dalton who could well have been James St. John Case
With AVTAK turing in to a different film, it's BO result could have been different too .... And Moore could have gone on a much high note after OP
Key words - "MUCH" higher note
"Although its box office reception was excellent, the film's critical response was mostly negative. Rotten Tomatoes currently gives A View to a Kill a 35% "Rotten" rating,which is the lowest rating for the Eon-produced Bond films on the website.
One of the most common criticisms was that Roger Moore was 57 at the time of filming – and had visibly aged in the two years that had passed since Octopussy. The Washington Post critic said "Moore isn't just long in the tooth – he's got tusks, and what looks like an eye job has given him the pie-eyed blankness of a zombie. He's not believable anymore in the action sequences, even less so in the romantic scenes – it's like watching women fall all over Gabby Hayes." .... Sean Connery declared that "Bond should be played by an actor 35, 33 years old. I'm too old. Roger's too old, too!" .... In a December 2007 interview, Roger Moore remarked, "I was only about four hundred years too old for the part."
Moore also stated that, at the time, A View to a Kill was his least favourite film, and mentioned that he was mortified to find out that he was older than his female co-star's mother.
Moore was quoted saying "I was horrified on the last Bond I did. Whole slews of sequences where Christopher Walken was machine-gunning hundreds of people. I said 'That wasn't Bond, those weren't Bond films.' It stopped being what they were all about. You didn't dwell on the blood and the brains spewing all over the place""
^ The last para also shows why AVTAK could have worked better as a Dalton's film
And more power to him!
HTH, there used to be a member on AJB, Jenny Flex Fan (JFF)
God how I miss him and I am glad that you are following his path {[]
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Hilarious!
The bloke who led the franchise to 2 of the 3 lowest- grossing movies would have bettered AVTAK box office results
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'll do my best {[]
Fact: TLD's BO >> AVTAK's .... While AVTAK's BO <<< Avg of Moore's other films
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
True! However AVTAK's gross is much lower than the avg of RM's other films (Avg gross per film of his first 6 films = $600M). AVTAK is less than 55% of this avg, so it can be deduced that AVTAK could have done better as a Dalton film (adapted to Dalton's style)
From your posts, it appears as if you are a RM fanboy .... I love RM too. However, it would not mean that I criticize others to make RM look better and root for everything about and/or from RM (Same would be true for TD fans criticizing RM) .... I like to be as neutral as possible and keep the interest of Bond, the character, at the highest
PS
This again shows that AVTAK could have worked better as a TD film
starting with the Moore-humour, the character names-wordplay, Bond wrestling naked with May Day....
aswell I believe that Walken as Zorin would have been too big for a new actor in the role, he would have stolen the show.
I think Moore's age had nothing to do with the BO-success, he was Widely accepted as Bind back then.
so to sum it up changing AVTAK into a Dalton film would be like changing DAD into a Craig film.