I might almost have sympathy for Duckenfield who clearly was out of his depth and made a mistake. with calamitous consequences, on the day, however it was the subsequent cover up and smearing for which I have no sympathy at all and I hope they are all brought to book. It is astonishing how the police could confidently behave the way they did with the world's cameras on them and thousands of witnesses, and be quite right to think they could get away with it - they did for nearly 30 years. Both the innocent and guilty have gone to their graves in that time and not seen justice done.
+1
For a long time, I've had the theory that they only hold these enquiries. Which take years to organise
and set up, then take years to gather evidence and come to any conclusions. To give time for the
Guilty to either Die, or get so old they suddenly develop Alzheimer's so can't stand trial. ( in one well
Know trial, one defendant got Alzheimer's only for a while, as he made a complete recovery ! So as
One comedian pointed out " He shouldn't go to a prison but a lab somewhere for tests, as no other
Human has ever recorded so fully from it" )
Another example of waiting for a conclusion is the levenson enquiry ........ 8-)
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I whole heartedly agree Stag, Ive worked along side some outstanding police officers, but these days my respect for the force has disappeared, corruption is rife, abuse of office commonplace, and lurid stories of officers sexualy praying on vulnerable people are almost a daily occurrence. I think if and only if conclusive evidence is found against duckenfield and Co they should face the very fullest penalty of law.
The whole situation was catastrophic and many fine police officers were caught in an unexpected and fluid situation. There of course some blame on all sides but innocent people perished and derailing an investigation is abhorrent.
Doesn't surprise me, many senior police officers are disliked by the lower ranks and officers actually doing the job. In the military I would never expect a grunt to do something his Co wouldn't. I just think a lot of forces have simply lost their way.
I might almost have sympathy for Duckenfield who clearly was out of his depth and made a mistake. with calamitous consequences, on the day, however it was the subsequent cover up and smearing for which I have no sympathy at all ...
That's the bit that truly galls and why the people responsible must pay the price. Duckenfield will be in the frame and will be the scapegoat for South Yorkshire but there are plenty of others who need to be standing next to him in a dock
The other thing that stunned me was the Police Federation. They refused to apologise for the remarks made by their representative at the time about the behaviour of the fans. The remarks that led to The Sun printing their notorious front page. Beggars belief.
God knows what was going on in South Yorkshire at the time
Apparently from what I heard on the news, an ex bobby who served under him described Duckenfield (I won't describe him by his former rank because IMHO he isn't fit to be addressed that way) was a martinet & disliked by those he commanded.
I read what his apparent nickname was yesterday ... replace the D with an F ... seems appropriate.
The prevailing culture at the time was one of cover ups & criminality. We have only to look at what happened at Orgreave - the mass alteration of statements etc. That SYP employed such methods in that instance points directly to how they would conduct themselves in the aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster.
There is talk of a Masonic cover up too.
It was rife at the time this happened but one the reasons why their Chief Constable has been suspended is because the lying and cover up has been allowed to perpetuate for 27 years.
Between this and Rotherham, SY are going to be scrutinised like never before.
Rotherham is a bit different I think, there is an aspect there of political correctness gone mad, it's sad that in this country we reach a point where police effectiveness is governed by fear of being called racist or corrupt. I'm sure this is part of the problem in Rotherham, in a similar way officers fear recrimination for stopping and searching young black males in certain areas despite the fact nearly 80% of knife crime in those areas is perpetrated by young black males. There's no point in stopping and searching the Sikh woman or middle aged man in the pin strip suit! It seems the only demographic the police can safely with are the white middle classes......who commit the least crimes.
It was either that.....or the priesthood
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,579Chief of Staff
Because I don't buy newspapers I have missed out on a lot of the detail surrounding the Hillsborough inquiry. It was't until last nights news that I became half up to speed with events.
Could someone please tell me if this Duckenfield character is now to be held to account for his actions? That he & all the others who conspired to suppress &/or alter evidence in relation to this event should now face criminal charges must be the next step logical in this process.
There are two separate enquiries ongoing...Operation Resolve and one from the IPCC...I think it will be the end of the year before they report their findings...only then will there be criminal charges pressed - if at all.
YNWA 97
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,579Chief of Staff
Thinking about it, Duckenfield may well escape criminal proceedings. I guess his legal team could argue that given all the publicity surrounding him & his part in the Hillsborough disaster, he would be unable to be given a fair trial.
I think he lost that right when he lied in court - as he now admits he did X-(
YNWA 97
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,579Chief of Staff
Thinking about it, Duckenfield may well escape criminal proceedings. I guess his legal team could argue that given all the publicity surrounding him & his part in the Hillsborough disaster, he would be unable to be given a fair trial.
I think he lost that right when he lied in court - as he now admits he did X-(
I've missed that one - as I said I am not up to speed with this. So he has admitted his guilt?
He admitted he lied in court...nothing else.
YNWA 97
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,579Chief of Staff
That would be the least of his worries...he's not alone either...and many PC's had their PNB's either confiscated or destroyed or their statements altered...
What I find incredulous was the line of thinking leading up to the gates being opened and the fans allowed to rush in.
Anyone who has stood on the terrace at football match knows there are a surge of latecomers just before kick off.
Once it became apparent there was a problem outside the ground, kick off should have delayed, first and foremost, to take away the urgency to get the fans in.
Then the crowd should have been dispersed/moved around outside the ground were there was more space to manoeuvre. Disorder outside the ground would have been easier to deal with.
How anyone can think opening up a gate and allowing a free for all entrance is mind blowing. How were they planning to have any idea of numbers or who had tickets etc ??
So many basic errors.
And this isn't looking back in hindsight and having all the answers. This wasn't as time critical a decision as say, deciding whether someone is armed and about to shot at you.
I was a control room supervisor for many years and worked many football grounds in London and various events at Wembley Stadium.
Duckenfields incompetence is unbelievable and subsequent cover up a disgrace.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,579Chief of Staff
Doesn't surprise me, many senior police officers are disliked by the lower ranks and officers actually doing the job. In the military I would never expect a grunt to do something his Co wouldn't. I just think a lot of forces have simply lost their way.
I remember when I retired my leaving do was very well attended - I like to think it is because I was held in high regard however it could be argued that most of them turned up just to make sure I was actually leaving!!!
But I'm guessing you worked up through the ranks, gathering experience and respect through your career, not fast tracked to the tip jobs because your a yes man, or attend a certain club.
Rotherham is a bit different I think, there is an aspect there of political correctness gone mad, it's sad that in this country we reach a point where police effectiveness is governed by fear of being called racist or corrupt. I'm sure this is part of the problem in Rotherham, in a similar way officers fear recrimination for stopping and searching young black males in certain areas despite the fact nearly 80% of knife crime in those areas is perpetrated by young black males. There's no point in stopping and searching the Sikh woman or middle aged man in the pin strip suit! It seems the only demographic the police can safely with are the white middle classes......who commit the least crimes.
Stopping and searching should be done on reasonable grounds. You should not be a suspect just because you may look like the suspect. And you should not be a suspect just because you most offenders are from your age group, or your ethnic group. It's tricky if you are the police, I know, but it is one of the challenges.
Rotherham is a bit different I think, there is an aspect there of political correctness gone mad, it's sad that in this country we reach a point where police effectiveness is governed by fear of being called racist or corrupt. I'm sure this is part of the problem in Rotherham, in a similar way officers fear recrimination for stopping and searching young black males in certain areas despite the fact nearly 80% of knife crime in those areas is perpetrated by young black males. There's no point in stopping and searching the Sikh woman or middle aged man in the pin strip suit! It seems the only demographic the police can safely with are the white middle classes......who commit the least crimes.
A superintendent I worked with was of the opinion effective policing not only investigated committed crimes but prevented crime being committed. In effect a police Utopia would be a low level of arrests due to effective policing procedures. Its a difficult statement to make but if police stopped and searched every member of a demographic certain crimes would be prevented.
Stopping and searching should be done on reasonable grounds. You should not be a suspect just because you may look like the suspect. And you should not be a suspect just because you most offenders are from your age group, or your ethnic group. It's tricky if you are the police, I know, but it is one of the challenges.
He was right about most things, at one point he was lauded as the most highly educated police officer in the country.
The problem these days is the police seem to be taking on a more fbi type role with policing being left more and more to the special constables.
Duckenfields incompetence is unbelievable and subsequent cover up a disgrace.
And he's decided to go on holiday !
I fully expect a charge of manslaughter to be brought against him.
There's a whole raft of charges which he should be facing. I still think his legal team will argue - given the obvious publicity surrounding his involvement in the disaster - that he won't have access to a fair trial. I hope I'm wrong but that & most likely some 'newly discovered' health issues will conspire to delay matters.
I've already seen articles suggesting he would never get a fair trial and I can see that. After 27 years of having your name mentioned in a negative way and many stories run in the media over that time is going to make it very difficult for a jury to be impartial.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,579Chief of Staff
I fully expect a charge of manslaughter to be brought against him.
There's a whole raft of charges which he should be facing. I still think his legal team will argue - given the obvious publicity surrounding his involvement in the disaster - that he won't have access to a fair trial. I hope I'm wrong but that & most likely some 'newly discovered' health issues will conspire to delay matters.
I've already seen articles suggesting he would never get a fair trial and I can see that. After 27 years of having your name mentioned in a negative way and many stories run in the media over that time is going to make it very difficult for a jury to be impartial.
I'm certain he'd get the exact same 'fair trial' the Liverpool supporters got 27 years ago ! He seemed OK with that ! Can't have one rule for the (ex)Police and one rule for everyone else...
Sadly I have the feeling that the powers that be will look for any excuse to drag this out for
yet more years, and there will be no prosecutions either through ill health or some
"Not in the public interest " crap.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,579Chief of Staff
Sadly I have the feeling that the powers that be will look for any excuse to drag this out for
yet more years, and there will be no prosecutions either through ill health or some
"Not in the public interest " crap.
Can't see that happening...someone will be prosecuted for this...too much has happened for this not to happen...especially with Cameron jumping on the bandwagon...the 'high-ups' are now trying to cover their arses !
That would be the least of his worries...he's not alone either...and many PC's had their PNB's either confiscated or destroyed or their statements altered...
Which brings me back to my earlier point about SYP wrongdoing surrounding Orgreave (& the miners strike in general?). That this very practice was being exercised then as perhaps a matter of routine would manifest itself once again when Hillsborough happened.
You cant blame the SYPD for all of the miners strike problems , my cousin a MET officer ,said they had the times of their lives being allowed to use shall we say non home office procedures ,and they were getting paid shed loads of overtime too ,in some case enough to put down substantial deposits on houses ,So don't blame all the SYPD bobbies ,many had brothers who where miners too.
I'm certain he'd get the exact same 'fair trial' the Liverpool supporters got 27 years ago ! He seemed OK with that ! Can't have one rule for the (ex)Police and one rule for everyone else...
I would like nothing more than to see him face the consequences of his actions but if I put my impartial head on I can see how difficult it's going to be.
Unless you have a jury full of 20's somethings that haven't paid any attention to the news for the past two years , it's just not going to happen.
It's not about having one rule for one etc but how fair a trial you can expect.
Let's see what he is charged with (if anything) because there are all sorts of offences that don't have to involve murder/manslaughter ... Misconduct/Malfeasance in a Public Office for one
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,579Chief of Staff
I'm certain he'd get the exact same 'fair trial' the Liverpool supporters got 27 years ago ! He seemed OK with that ! Can't have one rule for the (ex)Police and one rule for everyone else...
I would like nothing more than to see him face the consequences of his actions but if I put my impartial head on I can see how difficult it's going to be.
Unless you have a jury full of 20's somethings that haven't paid any attention to the news for the past two years , it's just not going to happen.
It's not about having one rule for one etc but how fair a trial you can expect.
Let's see what he is charged with (if anything) because there are all sorts of offences that don't have to involve murder/manslaughter ... Misconduct/Malfeasance in a Public Office for one
The problem is is that EVERYONE knows he's guilty anyway...so what is a 'fair' trial ? This has been played out for 27 years in the press...
Comments
Roger Moore 1927-2017
For a long time, I've had the theory that they only hold these enquiries. Which take years to organise
and set up, then take years to gather evidence and come to any conclusions. To give time for the
Guilty to either Die, or get so old they suddenly develop Alzheimer's so can't stand trial. ( in one well
Know trial, one defendant got Alzheimer's only for a while, as he made a complete recovery ! So as
One comedian pointed out " He shouldn't go to a prison but a lab somewhere for tests, as no other
Human has ever recorded so fully from it" )
Another example of waiting for a conclusion is the levenson enquiry ........ 8-)
The whole situation was catastrophic and many fine police officers were caught in an unexpected and fluid situation. There of course some blame on all sides but innocent people perished and derailing an investigation is abhorrent.
That's the bit that truly galls and why the people responsible must pay the price. Duckenfield will be in the frame and will be the scapegoat for South Yorkshire but there are plenty of others who need to be standing next to him in a dock
The other thing that stunned me was the Police Federation. They refused to apologise for the remarks made by their representative at the time about the behaviour of the fans. The remarks that led to The Sun printing their notorious front page. Beggars belief.
God knows what was going on in South Yorkshire at the time
I read what his apparent nickname was yesterday ... replace the D with an F ... seems appropriate.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3561405/Prosecutions-Hillsborough-disaster-overwhelmingly-public-interest.html
There is talk of a Masonic cover up too.
It was rife at the time this happened but one the reasons why their Chief Constable has been suspended is because the lying and cover up has been allowed to perpetuate for 27 years.
Between this and Rotherham, SY are going to be scrutinised like never before.
There are two separate enquiries ongoing...Operation Resolve and one from the IPCC...I think it will be the end of the year before they report their findings...only then will there be criminal charges pressed - if at all.
I think he lost that right when he lied in court - as he now admits he did X-(
Why am I not surprised ? 8-)
These are horrible people who just cover up for each other.
He admitted he lied in court...nothing else.
That would be the least of his worries...he's not alone either...and many PC's had their PNB's either confiscated or destroyed or their statements altered...
Anyone who has stood on the terrace at football match knows there are a surge of latecomers just before kick off.
Once it became apparent there was a problem outside the ground, kick off should have delayed, first and foremost, to take away the urgency to get the fans in.
Then the crowd should have been dispersed/moved around outside the ground were there was more space to manoeuvre. Disorder outside the ground would have been easier to deal with.
How anyone can think opening up a gate and allowing a free for all entrance is mind blowing. How were they planning to have any idea of numbers or who had tickets etc ??
So many basic errors.
And this isn't looking back in hindsight and having all the answers. This wasn't as time critical a decision as say, deciding whether someone is armed and about to shot at you.
I was a control room supervisor for many years and worked many football grounds in London and various events at Wembley Stadium.
Duckenfields incompetence is unbelievable and subsequent cover up a disgrace.
And he's decided to go on holiday !
I fully expect a charge of manslaughter to be brought against him.
Stopping and searching should be done on reasonable grounds. You should not be a suspect just because you may look like the suspect. And you should not be a suspect just because you most offenders are from your age group, or your ethnic group. It's tricky if you are the police, I know, but it is one of the challenges.
The problem these days is the police seem to be taking on a more fbi type role with policing being left more and more to the special constables.
I've already seen articles suggesting he would never get a fair trial and I can see that. After 27 years of having your name mentioned in a negative way and many stories run in the media over that time is going to make it very difficult for a jury to be impartial.
I'm certain he'd get the exact same 'fair trial' the Liverpool supporters got 27 years ago ! He seemed OK with that ! Can't have one rule for the (ex)Police and one rule for everyone else...
yet more years, and there will be no prosecutions
"Not in the public interest " crap.
Can't see that happening...someone will be prosecuted for this...too much has happened for this not to happen...especially with Cameron jumping on the bandwagon...the 'high-ups' are now trying to cover their arses !
You cant blame the SYPD for all of the miners strike problems , my cousin a MET officer ,said they had the times of their lives being allowed to use shall we say non home office procedures ,and they were getting paid shed loads of overtime too ,in some case enough to put down substantial deposits on houses ,So don't blame all the SYPD bobbies ,many had brothers who where miners too.
I would like nothing more than to see him face the consequences of his actions but if I put my impartial head on I can see how difficult it's going to be.
Unless you have a jury full of 20's somethings that haven't paid any attention to the news for the past two years , it's just not going to happen.
It's not about having one rule for one etc but how fair a trial you can expect.
Let's see what he is charged with (if anything) because there are all sorts of offences that don't have to involve murder/manslaughter ... Misconduct/Malfeasance in a Public Office for one
The problem is is that EVERYONE knows he's guilty anyway...so what is a 'fair' trial ? This has been played out for 27 years in the press...
I'm not arguing with you. I think he should be hung out to dry but that's precisely why he won't get a fair trial.
I just think a charge of manslaughter will be hard to follow up.
I think a charge of perverting the course of justice or misconduct in a public office is more likely.
It's shame some of the main people concerned are dead.
Then again, someone is going to pay .....