Goldeneye PTS

SeanIsTheOnlyOneSeanIsTheOnlyOne Posts: 413MI6 Agent
edited February 2021 in The James Bond Films
Hi everyone,

There are a few things I was wondering about Goldeneye PTS. I rewatched the movie recently and I just can't help thinking there are some holes...

First of all, does Ourumov shoot Trevelyan with blanks to fake his death ? If it's the case, when Bond escapes from the facility, I guess Alec has time to get up and to take shelter before the mines explode. I mean, it's the kind of detail a mastermind must take into account. After all, he knew everything about the mission except the fact Bond would change the countdown but I suppose he was aware anyway he would have few time to protect himself. So what did he do exactly during this three minutes and did he really need three more to make his "plot" succeed ? Alec only had to make Bond believe he had just been killed by Ourumov, nothing more.

The second thing I don't understand is why Ourumov does not try to disarm the mines instead of chasing Bond. The location is about to blow up and he seems more interested with stopping the trespasser, which is quite a weird sense of priorities in such a situation ! Given Alec was an accomplice from the beginning, he could have told the Soviet colonel how to protect the location.

Comments

  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,002MI6 Agent
    there are a few issues with Alec's faked death at the beginning of Goldeneye, some of which got debated in the Little Niggles thread starting at post 885.
    I think you've thought up a few more! it all doesn't really make sense.

    my own theory is he used a plastic surgery double, since so much of his evil scheme is based on Diamonds are Forever already. (note how the much maligned DaF does a better job of explaining things!)
  • Golrush007Golrush007 South AfricaPosts: 3,421Quartermasters
    Here's a passage from Andy Lane and Paul Simpson's The Bond Files, which goes into some detail around the puzzling aspects of the Goldeneye PTS:

    "When we see the chemical weapons facility in long shot at the end of the pre-title sequence, it's on top of a mountain range. However, earlier on, Bond has to bungee jump from the top to the bottom of the dam to get into it. Aren't dams usually at the bottom of mountain ranges, not at the top?

    Trevelyan and Ourumov have presumably set up the sequence in which Ourumov apparently kills Trevelyan in order to fool Bond into thinking he is dead. Why did they do that if their intention was to kill Bond anyway? Why didn't Trevelyan kill Bond when he had a gun pointed at him earlier? Also, was it really necessary to gun down so many Russian soldiers to convince Bond? How does Ourumov feel about this? Or was the whole Janus charade discussed and arranged between Trevelyan and Ourumov in those few seconds while Ourumov had a gun at Trevelyan's head? Whatever way you look at it, it doesn't make any sense?"

    None of these 'problems' make the sequence any less enjoyable to me, but it is quite fun to look at them in this way and pull them apart. I've also always wondered about Ourumov's pistol...was it loaded with a blank for when he 'shot' Trevelyan, and then the next round was live for when he executed his own trigger-happy soldier? Or was that kill also an act?
  • emtiememtiem SurreyPosts: 5,790MI6 Agent
    Thing is, you can't fire a blank at someone's head at point blank range without killing them. Maybe he aimed his gun to the side and hoped Bond wouldn't notice, but you'd still probably deafen Alec! :)

    I guess the only way it sort of makes sense is that Ouromov is already a traitor at this point: they have premeditated it (let's say in the movie world blanks don't kill people!) but Alec can't kill Bond on sight and then go to Ouromov because he'd be captured by the real Russians. So the show of killing him is as much for all of the soldiers there as it is for Bond; they want to show that the foreign spies have been killed so that Alec can slip off into the shadows when everyone's back is turned.
    Even then I think there are quite a few holes in it! :D
    The second thing I don't understand is why Orumov does not try to disarm the mines instead of chasing Bond. The location is about to blow up and he seems more interested with stopping the trespasser, which is quite a weird sense of priorities in such a situation ! Given Alec was an accomplice from the beginning, he could have told the Soviet colonel how to protect the location.

    That is a good point. Indeed why doesn't Alec do it? Maybe there are still some soldiers around and he has to play dead.
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,002MI6 Agent
    Golrush007 wrote:
    "When we see the chemical weapons facility in long shot at the end of the pre-title sequence, it's on top of a mountain range. However, earlier on, Bond has to bungee jump from the top to the bottom of the dam to get into it. Aren't dams usually at the bottom of mountain ranges, not at the top?
    now this part I don't have an issue with.

    Dams used to generate hydroelectric power are placed where there would be a steep elevational drop, to maximise the water pressure. Thus the top of a steep valley would be a good place, there might naturally have been a waterfall there otherwise.
    This does not mean at the top of the mountain range, there would only be glacier fed gulleys near those peaks, but the streams from those peaks gather in a valley, and presumably in this case there is a sudden steep drop in that valley...

    ...which is where we see Bond use his previously unseen superpower of flight to enter the open door of an out-of-control aircraft.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,963MI6 Agent
    The dam has to be high up, but the generator and the rest of the hydropower plant has to be at the bottom. The point is to have the maximum speed and pressure when the water hits the generator.

    I think it's dangerous to have a blank fired at your head at point... blank range, but it's not necceserily lethal and often it only give minor damage. I remember an officer fired one point blank at a hard card board sheet with a AG3 (licence buildt HK G3) and the card board got a few small holes, it looked like someone had puntured it with needles. Sometimes blanks produced a muzzle flash, but usually blanks had pretty much no effect. Pistols obviously have much shorter barrels, but the blanks have far less gunpowder.
  • SeanIsTheOnlyOneSeanIsTheOnlyOne Posts: 413MI6 Agent
    edited February 2021
    emtiem wrote:
    Alec can't kill Bond on sight and then go to Ouromov because he'd be captured by the real Russians.


    I don't think Alec ever thought he could be captured by the Russians, even considering his origins. Furthermore, if it had happened, he could have negociated with them thanks to his knowledge of many secret files from MI6.

    About killing Bond, remember what Alec says when they meet again: "I did think of asking you to join my little scheme".
    Alec really had affection for Bond despite his hate for England. That's why he didn't kill him. I even wonder if having both Bond and Alec dead wouldn't have led MI6 to check whether one of them could have been a mole, whereas having 006 being killed and 007 escaping from the facility seems much less suspicious.


    emtiem wrote:
    I guess the only way it sort of makes sense is that Ouromov is already a traitor at this point: they have premeditated it


    Of course they have. Otherwise, how'd you explain Alec survived while Ourumov pointed a gun at him ? They've been partners in crime from the beginning until the Cossak betrayed the Russian general.
    But I still don't understand what Alec had forecasted after Ourumov faked killing him. His main goal was to make Bond believe in his death. But while Bond was outside fighting with the battalion and trying to escape, Alec could have taken shelter somewhere to avoid having his face damaged...

    That's why this "three minutes" concept is not very clear.
  • sinlumsinlum Posts: 166MI6 Agent

    I have seen in this thread and a number of other threads people complaining about the plot holes in the pre-titles sequence of GE. I don’t believe there are any and would like to give my explanations on what is happening in the sequence. I tried to compile this into a kind of FAQ to make it easier to read.


    1) Why does Bond bungee down the damn only to end up on top of a mountain at the end?

    Bond bungees down to get access to the ventilation system which is located at the foot of the damn. He crawls up through the vents to get to the facility which is located left of the dam on top of the mountain. (If you’ve played GE on the N64, then you would know this geographical location is possible).

     

    2) If 006 is in already in league with Ouromov, why does he feign his death by getting Ouromov to shoot him when he could have killed Bond at any time in the sequence?

    006 is definitely not double-crossing Bond in this sequence. If he was, why doesn’t he just set a trap to kill of Bond? Also why would 006 kill so many Russian soldiers? I deduce that he had been working as a mole in the facility for MI6 which can also explain how he can speak Russian so well when he first meets Bond but he’s definitely not in league with Ouromov at this time.

     

    3) Why is there a plane conveniently taking off while all the gunfire is going off outside?

    The plan is for both 00 agents to escape on the plane. 006 probably arranged for the pilot to get the plane ready and leave at a certain time regardless of what was happening in the facility. This would explain why the plane is trying to take off with all the gunfire going off outside. I also deduce that the pilot may have also been in on the escape (so he also wanted to escape the facility) but 006 didn’t tell Bond about this.

     

    4) Why do so many barrels fall all over the place when Bond shoots the lock?

    I think 006 already set up the barrels behind the crating so they would fall if the lock was shot off. I deduce that their original plan was to do this once all the timers had been set. However I reckon they didn’t expect the glass to be broken so quickly and also for the door to be blown for so many guards to enter so quickly. 006’s rifle probably jams or runs out of ammo sooner than he thinks so he gets overwhelmed and is thus forced to kneel before Ouromov.


    5) How does 006 survive being shot by Ouromov?

    006 is definitely not working for Ouromov here in this sequence. He starts to panic when Bond goes towards them since he thinks if both of them die, the mission will be a disaster. I deduce that Ouromov shoots 006 with a blank. Why would he have a loaded gun in such a facility? He is probably only there visiting and would not need to carry a loaded gun with him. The shot is enough to make 006 go unconscious or 006 simply feigns being dead so he can escape a few minutes later. It’s possible for people to survive gun shots even from point blank range so just because Ouromov shoots him with a blank, does not mean he would necessarily die. Ouromov having a gun with blank bullets would also explain how he shoots the soldier without having any repercussions from any of the other soldiers.

     

    006 survives the explosion and after being captured and interrogated, he works out that Ouromov can be swayed to use Goldeneye as a weapon. He’s pissed with Bond for changing the timers (and possibly getting the pilot killed). This explains his motives for his actions later on in the film.

     

     

     

     

  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,963MI6 Agent
    edited July 2023

    Why did 006 shoot so many Soviet soldiers if he's on the their side? I think both history and current news teaches us that Russian leaders don't lose sleep over sending their soldiers off to their needless deaths. 006 knows Russian because his family was Russian. MI6 also teaches some agents the language.

  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,363MI6 Agent

    As with the last part of Goldfinger, the thing works on first viewing mostly but on a rewatch... If Pussy Galore tipped off the US authorities about Goldfinger's plan, allowing them to feign dropping dead around Fort Knox, why did they let the villains proceed in the first place? Why not just swoop in and arrest them before they got anywhere near the national bank, where 'Fingers plan very nearly came off?

    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,963MI6 Agent

    I feel sure an officer like Ourumov would carry a loaded sidearm visiting such an installation. Officers and all ranks only use blanks during excercises. I belive Ourumov and 006 worked together. Ourumov used a live round when he shot one of his soldiers, but put a blank in the chamber before "killing" 006.

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,879Chief of Staff

    The in-universe explanation is that Felix and co had to wait to be sure the bomb was there or it could have been used elsewhere.

    "On the contrary, Mr Bond, the risk is all on your side. If the authorities should attempt to locate it, who knows where it might be exploded? Perhaps the Polaris submarine base at New London? Cape Canaveral? Near the White House?"

  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,363MI6 Agent

    Erm.

    They don't know there's a bomb do they? Did Pussy Galore tip them off? Is that one of your Imaginary Conversations?

    Pussy: Hi, Pussy here. Pussy Galore. No this isn't a wind-up.

    Felix: Okay, what can I do for you?

    Pussy? Well, you better head down to Fort Knox. Big show going on. No, I'm not saying what it is. Just pretend to look dead when the planes go by.

    Or is it just she changed the gas canisters? If so, how do they know to play dead and not be dead?

    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,879Chief of Staff
    edited July 2023

    It's all in the dialogue, NP.

    And I'll take you up on your idea for an Imaginary Conversation once the current re-runs are over. 😀

  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,363MI6 Agent

    I'm not going over that rubbish again.

    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,363MI6 Agent

    I mean, the final reel of Goldfinger.... not your Imaginary Conversations. 😎

    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,879Chief of Staff

    😁😁😁

  • sinlumsinlum Posts: 166MI6 Agent

    I theorise that 006 was a triple agent working for MI6 and had been based in Russia for some time before the PTS of Goldeneye. He would be the perfect candidate - he could speak Russian fluently and had a secret hatred for the country. The Russians probably thought he was a decent double agent giving them "secrets" of MI6 before he was shot by Ouromov.

    I imagine that 006 was probably captured after the explosion of the chemical factory and then interrogated by Ouromov. The two probably shared the same view that they were being treated unfairly by their respective employers and so hatched the Goldeneye plan together.

  • sinlumsinlum Posts: 166MI6 Agent

    Don't know if this has been posted before somewhere: There is also a subtle reference of why this sequence happens in 1986 in the film. If Brosnan hadn't been caught up in his Remington Steele contract at the time, he would have been Bond by 1986. The PTS of Goldeneye is basically making up for Brosnan missing out being Bond in reality in 1986 😄

  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent

    I recently put up a thread about Goldeneye and questioning its tone and pacing. On the whole the film is very odd and the confusing nature of what's raised above adds to all of it too.

    The "shooting" of Alec is lazily edited in such a way to give the impression to the audience "was he really shot?" and then remember that Alec when appearing later in the film has pock/burn marks that aren't present at the start of the film.

    Despite all of these questions...doesn't the film suggest that Alec becomes a traitor because of what Bond does? Despite being pushed by Alec to "finish them off James"?

    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,002MI6 Agent

    this has definitely been debated before: there is the implication that Dalton never was Bond and Brosnan was Bond all along. Though one of our more historically minded fellow agents reminded us this precredits has to happen before the end of the Cold War, which is a more logical but less fun theory.

    I suggest our Amazing Adventures of Those Two Inseperable Pals Alec 'n' James could help answer some questions about Alec's motivations, but theyre possibly nonCanonical?

  • sinlumsinlum Posts: 166MI6 Agent

    I think implying that the Dalton films never happened is very spiteful. I don't believe that was ever the intention of the filmmakers. I always interpreted the PTS of Goldeneye happening in 1986 - one year before the events of TLD.

  • sinlumsinlum Posts: 166MI6 Agent
    edited July 2023

    I think as Trevelyn survives the explosion, he probably gets captured and interrogated which leads to his ill feelings towards Bond and MI6 in general. If you look at what happens to Bond in DAD and Silva's story in SF, I can somehow understand why. If the mission goes wrong, nobody comes in to save you and your existence is effectively wiped from the history books.

  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,002MI6 Agent

    sinium said:

    I think implying that the Dalton films never happened is very spiteful. I don't believe that was ever the intention of the filmmakers.

    ___________________________________

    true, very rude to Dalton. I meant the implication is in the eye of the beholder (us in the audience), I dont know the intention of the filmmakers.

    I thought the intention of the filmmakers didnt matter for these theories? only what evidence is within the released films?

  • sinlumsinlum Posts: 166MI6 Agent

    @caractacus potts

    Yes you are right - technically theories are developed in the eye of the beholder. However I tend to think theories which support the continuation of all the films are better than ones which try to write off certain films or certain actors' tenures.

    I don't think the reboot thing with the Craig era was ever really conclusive (a theory about that on the way) and the code name theory has a lot of inconsistencies when you try to apply it across the films.

    I always thought it was EON's intention to subtly remind the audience that we are watching the same character James Bond who has gone through all the other previous missions in one chronological timeframe. Admittedly the strong connections across the films were dropped after FRWL and some connections were never really developed - the resolution of OHMSS and the fate of the original Blofeld as examples. Nevertheless I still think that there is a golden thread there across all the films and it is something that many other film series couldn't maintain after so many films.

  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent

    sinlum: "I don't think the reboot thing with the Craig era was ever really conclusive (a theory about that on the way) and the code name theory has a lot of inconsistencies when you try to apply it across the films."

    What do you mean that the reboot thing with the Craig era was ever conclusive?

    The reboot is the fact that at the start of CR he's not a double-o so he's right back at the start of his career with MI6. Then what? QoS is the direct sequel the following two are later missions ending with NTTD as a "retirement".

    It will be interesting to see where the next Bond storyline picks up from. I wouldn't be surprised if they ditch a Craig style timeline tenure.

    IMO what they did with Craig by having a 00-tenure that makes sense from start to finish was a novel one.

    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • sinlumsinlum Posts: 166MI6 Agent

    I have a theory coming soon which will probably be dismissed by many but might (just might) make you see CR in a different light.

  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent

    ^ Looking forward to it! And many more!

    Hopefully it's all tied into "Michael G Wilson wanted to be taken seriously as someone who had influence over the story"

    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
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