Does NTTD hate James Bond?

hoppimikehoppimike London, UKPosts: 54MI6 Agent
edited May 20 in No Time To Die (Bond 25)

A couple of solid examples spring to mind but the movie is riddled with them.

The moment that made me want to make this thread was in the wine cellar scene where Paloma looks totally repulsed when James comes on to her. I didn't notice how bad it is on first viewing:

https://youtu.be/kcNwrxUiymE?t=23

But the bedroom scene with Nomi is kind of famously hard on him at this point:

https://youtu.be/eSCCohLsS3o?t=70

I found it so bad as to be immersion-breaking. It wasn't just these two women (plus the ending) but these are just the most obvious things to point out.

So... did it hate Bond?

Movies: The Spy Who Loved Me. Actor: Pierce Brosnan. Theme: You Only Live Twice. :D

Comments

  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,634Chief of Staff

    So... did it hate Bond?

    No, just two women didn’t want sex with him…happens all the time with me 🙈👀🤣

    YNWA 97
    Currently Head of Station C: Canada 🇨🇦
  • GymkataGymkata Minnesota, USAPosts: 4,148MI6 Agent

    Regarding the two scenes you mentioned: I think this is the film having fun with the normal expectations of Bond (able to get any woman he wants), nothing more.

    I'm on record as being someone who really, really likes NTTD so read what I say through that lens: I think the film loves Bond. here's why:

    • He's repeatedly shown to be the most competent person in the room. Consider how he dominates his action sequences or his conversations, especially with M and/or Nomi.
    • Other characters regard him in high esteem.
    • He is allowed to die doing his job. Again, a man like Bond should not get to retire and live happily ever after...he should go out doing his job and saving his country/the world. This is beautifully summed up by the quote that M gives at the end. Bond has used his time and lived to serve a purpose...and his time was finite. To me, this shows a tremendous amount of respect for the Craig iteration of the character which is plainly seen to be a closed story arc.
    Current rankings (updated 12/21)
    OHMSS>FRWL>CR>TSWLM>NTTD>MR>SF>FYEO>GE>DN>YOLT>OP>
    TND>TWINE>QOS>TB>TMWTGG>GF>LALD>TLD>AVTAK>SP>DAF>LTK>DAD
    Bond rankings: Lazenby>Moore>Connery>Craig>Brosnan>Dalton
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 19,982MI6 Agent
    edited July 17

    Paloma isn't repulsed by Bond. She's a bit embarrassed because of the confusion the two of them created. If you watch the rest of the Cuba scenes you'll see Bond and Paloma having fun working together, far from showing any repulsion. You didn't really belive the scene was included to show how women are repulsed by Bond, did you?

    Nomi wants to make her mark against a legendary agent she has inherited the number from and behaves a little agressively, but I see no hate. There are a couple of elements that will be debated forever, but in my opinion James Bond is the hero of NTTD and the movie is a celebration of Bond.

  • GymkataGymkata Minnesota, USAPosts: 4,148MI6 Agent
    Current rankings (updated 12/21)
    OHMSS>FRWL>CR>TSWLM>NTTD>MR>SF>FYEO>GE>DN>YOLT>OP>
    TND>TWINE>QOS>TB>TMWTGG>GF>LALD>TLD>AVTAK>SP>DAF>LTK>DAD
    Bond rankings: Lazenby>Moore>Connery>Craig>Brosnan>Dalton
  • hoppimikehoppimike London, UKPosts: 54MI6 Agent


    I didn't have a massive problem with it killing Bond at the end although it might have been because by then I had completely lost all hope on the film, so really anything could have happened and it probably wouldn't have bothered me much.

    I did take issue with Nomi wearing those ridiculous trousers when they were having a drink to him though. The rest of them were dressed kind of sombrely and the whole room was dark, and there was Nomi in these HUGE bright trousers! To me that just looked absurd and disrespectful to the character.

    Movies: The Spy Who Loved Me. Actor: Pierce Brosnan. Theme: You Only Live Twice. :D

  • hoppimikehoppimike London, UKPosts: 54MI6 Agent

    Killing Bond... I mean, the movie was already kind of a lost cause for me by that point anyway. But I did think the "JAMES BOND WILL RETURN" message at the end felt a bit bizarre after that ending.

    I felt like throughout the whole movie Nomi seemed very out of place, including during the scene where they were having a drink to Bond and she was wearing these enormous white trousers that just stood out a mile and weren't even slightly appropriate.

    It's like the character is just there to troll the movie and has no real interest in being part of it.

    I mean, I can't PROVE this stuff because these things are subtle and ambiguous, but it's bizarre to me how some people can't see them, or at least say they can't.

    Movies: The Spy Who Loved Me. Actor: Pierce Brosnan. Theme: You Only Live Twice. :D

  • GymkataGymkata Minnesota, USAPosts: 4,148MI6 Agent

    You see what you see. I disagree with your interpretation and I've stated my reasons why. That doesn't make me right and you wrong, it just means that we see the film differently. Neither one of us is wrong.

    It would be a boring world if we all liked the same things. I'm sorry that so many of you didn't care for NTTD but I can categorically state that there are tons of us who loved it. That's ok. Regardless, NTTD closes the Craig chapter and I'm ready to move on to whatever comes next.

    Current rankings (updated 12/21)
    OHMSS>FRWL>CR>TSWLM>NTTD>MR>SF>FYEO>GE>DN>YOLT>OP>
    TND>TWINE>QOS>TB>TMWTGG>GF>LALD>TLD>AVTAK>SP>DAF>LTK>DAD
    Bond rankings: Lazenby>Moore>Connery>Craig>Brosnan>Dalton
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,394MI6 Agent

    can a film feel hatred towards one of its characters? I would have thought a film was a cold inorganic object, incapable of feeling emotions. are there other examples of films feeling emotions, towards characters or in general?

  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 19,982MI6 Agent

    In his defence, a movie can be used to express hatered towards someone or something. Indiana Jones moviesshows hatered towards snakes and nazis, QoS seems to hate clear editing etc.

  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,634Chief of Staff

    What was the problem with the ending of QoS?

    Apart from it being about 20 minutes too early? 🤣

    YNWA 97
    Currently Head of Station C: Canada 🇨🇦
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 19,982MI6 Agent

    The ending of QoS was fine, it even had pause in the editing that lasted several seconds!

  • hoppimikehoppimike London, UKPosts: 54MI6 Agent

    I could happily defend QOS quite a bit. I actually love that movie, lol

    I found it so... high energy, varied, vibrant on-screen... and I really liked Greene. This idea of this "hippy"-like character who's secretly evil! That's so cool to me.

    And the opera scene WOW! That is just superlative IMO.

    So yeah... QOS... 9/10. Honestly, I'd defend that movie forever ^^

    Movies: The Spy Who Loved Me. Actor: Pierce Brosnan. Theme: You Only Live Twice. :D

  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 19,982MI6 Agent

    QoS is high-energy, the opera scene is good and I'm glad you like it. But it tries to mimic the Jason Bourne editing and like most movies that isn't Bourne it doesn't work. The editing is confusing. At least in my opnion. But I'm glad you're a fan and I always find something to enjoy in a Bond movie.

  • MI6_HeadquartersMI6_Headquarters Posts: 37MI6 Agent

    There's so much to like in QoS, like what I've said in the other thread, it's like Fleming's TMWTGG novel, it's unpolished and unfinished but despite of that, there's still so many things to like.

    Read it here: https://www.ajb007.co.uk/discussion/55047/which-is-the-most-underrated-and-which-is-the-most-overrated-bond-film-in-your-view/p1

    I liked it, despite of its flaws, I'm fond of it, the same way I'm feeling about Fleming's TMWTGG.

    Ranking of Ian Fleming Novels/Books

    1. Moonraker 2. Casino Royale 3. From Russia With Love 4. Thunderball 5. You Only Live Twice 6. Dr. No 7. Diamonds Are Forever 8. Goldfinger 9. Live And Let Die 10. On Her Majesty's Secret Service 11. The Spy Who Loved Me 12. The Man With The Golden Gun

    Ranking the Short Stories:

    1. The Living Daylights 2. From A View To A Kill 3. For Your Eyes Only 4. The Hildebrand Rarity 5. Risico 6. Quantum Of Solace 7. Octopussy

  • hoppimikehoppimike London, UKPosts: 54MI6 Agent

    To be totally honest I've never watched a Bourne film start-to-finish so I can't really comment on them. Maybe I just felt they lacked character. I like Die Hard, but that has character even if it's a different kind of character to Bond. Same with Indy.

    The editing... the funny thing is that I didn't actually notice anything was wrong with it until I started to hear people talking about it online years later. Now... I guess I do see it, but I don't really rate the movie down for that because I only saw it once people pointed it out.

    I can see though that if someone really dislikes that style then it will have quite a big impact on their enjoyment of the film because it affects every scene.

    I probably would agree that it's too fast.

    Movies: The Spy Who Loved Me. Actor: Pierce Brosnan. Theme: You Only Live Twice. :D

  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 19,982MI6 Agent

    I recomend you watch The Bourne Identity. It's a really good movie in the genere that was really influential (QoS is one example) and the editing style is done right.

  • hoppimikehoppimike London, UKPosts: 54MI6 Agent

    Doesn't it lack a bit of charisma though? Maybe I'm wrong. I just never got the feeling when I was watching clips and things that they had as much as Bond or Die Hard or whatever.

    Maybe I'll give them another look anyway sometime :)

    Movies: The Spy Who Loved Me. Actor: Pierce Brosnan. Theme: You Only Live Twice. :D

  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 19,982MI6 Agent
    edited May 22

    I don't think the Bourne character needed much charisma. Bourne isn't supposed to be the charmer type. Saying Jason Bourne lacks charisma is like saying Danny Oscean didn't look like ha hardned killer.

  • HalfMonk HalfHitmanHalfMonk HalfHitman USAPosts: 2,161MI6 Agent
    edited May 30

    Can a movie hate its characters? Yes. Examples exist in film noir, the work of the Coen Brothers, and elsewhere.

    Did this movie hate Bond? No. As Gymkata beautifully laid out, this is a movie that loves Bond. And like any loving relationship, it busts his balls from time to time. This has been going on since at least Skyfall.

    Nomi's white pants were inappropriate for... an impromptu meeting in M's office? It wasn't as if it was an official memorial service.

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 33,442Chief of Staff

    Nomi, HMHH, not Paloma. Paloma wasn't wearing pants (cold shower time) and wasn't in that scene.

  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 19,982MI6 Agent


    Surely Bond's balls have been busted at least since CR? 😕



  • OrnithologistOrnithologist BerlinPosts: 555MI6 Agent
    edited May 25

    "Hate is a strong word, Betty. I hate Nazis" 😉

    Interesting thread. I am also still in the "NTTD was (mostly) ****" camp, but I will certainly continue to revisit it, look at other opinions, and who knows, maybe someday I'll like it. That's part of the fun of a forum like this.

    I think hoppimike raises a fair point about the movie treating Bond, the character and what most of us expect him to be, rather poorly. But then I also agree with the rebuttals about the two specific scenes he mentioned to underline his point. I just watched those scenes again and Bond is cool and calm as always, in charge of the situation in both cases.

    With Nomi, to me it's rather clear that he expects her to have an agenda besides sleeping with him from the beginning, perhaps even having figured it out exactly, at the latest when he walks into the bedroom. What follows is a bit of (un-)friendly banter and her agressive comments seem to leave him rather unfazed. I find it highly unlikely that he is as "desperate for some action" as she claims, and she probably knows it. Bond is no longer the cocky young agent with a chip on his shoulder - she is. He is now an experienced veteran who no longer needs to play games (although he can still do so occasionally for fun, as shown in M's office "I'm sure that must hurt"). Nomi later accepts this as well, which makes her character more likeable in turn.

    Paloma on the other hand was one of the absolute highlights of the movie. I only wish that Bond could have somehow escaped that damn island to go live with her in Cuba, after having killed off those silly underwritten definitely not a virus nanobots by smoking Delectados... 😋

    "I'm afraid I'm a complicated woman. "
    "- That is something to be afraid of."
  • hoppimikehoppimike London, UKPosts: 54MI6 Agent

    Yeah the end was strange...

    They even gave Bond an EMP watch and then didn't allow him to use that to kill them. Weird!

    I mean, the movie wasn't wholly without its charms. The first 40 minutes before Nomi turned up were alright. And... some aspects of the story did at least feel like a Bond movie, even though I felt like it was just trying to copy what a Bond movie is expected to be,

    The family aspect of the final part of the film in Safin's base did make it more unique though I think, so that's good.

    Movies: The Spy Who Loved Me. Actor: Pierce Brosnan. Theme: You Only Live Twice. :D

  • Lady RoseLady Rose London,UKPosts: 2,580MI6 Agent

    You'll be pleased to know Sir Miles that QoS is no longer my least favourite Bond Film. NTTD has taken that mantle 🤣

  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,634Chief of Staff

    That’s little more than cold comfort 😕 as both are excellent Bond films for me…

    YNWA 97
    Currently Head of Station C: Canada 🇨🇦
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