1. Don't reveal S.P.E.C.T.R.E.'s plan until much later in the film so the story has more tension.
2. Cut the length of the underwater battles near the climax.
3. Either cut superfluous characters, like Paula, or given them the screen time they deserve so, in this example, we feel the loss of her death. I'd also like more time with Domino so we understand her motivations more.
I think with Thunderball I'd change Spectre's plan: someone who is going to set off a nuke is scarier than someone who might set off a nuke if you don't pay them (do they even consider paying up?). I'd also put Bond right where the bomb is due to go off: putting our hero in direct danger is more thrilling than the bomb being thousands of miles away: it's how the previous film had it after all.
I think I'd also change it to make Fiona the main baddie: she's way better onscreen than Largo and there's actually some emotion when her and Bond are together. Have Largo think he's leading the ransom plot only for Fiona to reveal Spectre have a much more evil plot in mind and are doublecrossing him.
I'd have the film just be more crazy and colourful in general. Compared to Goldfinger all of the big, cartoony elements have gone and the whole story is a bit duller and more conventional.
Thunderball sometimes has the air of a victory parade - let's do the same thing again, only happy and secure - and with nobs on!
It's also a bit perfunctory because EON were bounced into doing it to stop McClory having a rival movie raining on their parade.
On top of which, the plot is a problem because - and they were to resolve this with YOLT and TSWLM - it lacks a sub-plot of substance. If you're not really into underwater action and the villain's plot, it's a sitting duck or lame duck cos that's all there is. In YOLT it deals as much with Bond's culture clash with the Far East, more in fact than it does with space capsules, likewise TSWLM is as much about the tension between MI6 and the Soviet Union and Triple X as it is about missing submarines - these pull off the trick of soap operas in that they have two plots going on at the same time, neither of which by themselves may be that interesting. TB doesn't have that though it chooses instead to be two separate movies almost, one north of Paris and at Shrublands, the other in Nassau.
The killing of Domino's brother is sort of a sub plot but belongs in a melodrama, a 1950s film.
Yeah, it is a 1950s plot, ultimately. Goldfinger had pushed into the 60s, but TB went backwards rather. It's a very good point about the sub-plot: it's very simplistic. I'd like to see a version which adapts the book with the same sense of craziness and wit that they added to GF and YOLT.
do any of the elements in Never Say Never Again address the need for more crazy kooky cartooniness?
the video game duel is certainly a crazier evolution from the oldschool card games, but personally is the most awkward part of the film for me
on the positive side, the hijacking of the missiles is far more visual and fun to watch than the equivalent scene in Thunderball
I agree Paula's character is so underdeveloped to be almost pointless, even her sacrificial lamb sequence is a digression that makes little narrative sense. Also Fiona is indeed more interesting than both Domino and Largo.
I keep meaning to add more to this thread, but I want to go in chronological order, and I cant think of a single thing I'd change in From Russia with Love. I can see why @IcePak just skips ahead to the fourth film
do any of the elements in Never Say Never Again address the need for more crazy kooky cartooniness?
I guess it does, but it's fitting into the 70s/80s mould of Bond films by then, with the horse chase and gadget motorcycle etc.
I suppose I just would have liked to have a version of TB which fits a bit more with GF or YOLT. There isn't even a crazy lair! Give me an evil underwater dome or sinister submarine or something. And the henchman's quirk is literally that he doesn't do anything interesting. What do you do, Vargas?
Steal the Vulcan and land it on an airstrip which rises out of the sea, seal it in a dome under the water so Fiona can try to fly it away at the climax of the film. I dunno, something like that.
Well, there have been various screenplays over the years, and most fall into the trap - Warhead in particular - of ramping it up to excess but again, with no sub plot or nuance, it's hard to get behind it. I liked your improvements emtiem actually. TSWLM was likely intended to shoot McClory's fox a bit, being an underwater Bond film - but it had not only a sub plot but snow and desert, in case you don't take to that. NSNA did none of that, there's little visual variety. I'd have had Shrublands as maybe a Swiss spa set near a NATO air base, just to offer something different - but they were unclear whether they were remaking the novel or the film, and how far they could deviate from either.
I find it funny that NSNA switches location from the Bahamas to the South of France- I doubt many people even noticed because a tropical town by the sea in the sunshine (with pretty much exclusively white faces) looks much like a Mediterranean town by the sea in the sunshine on the big screen!
I like the idea of the Swiss spa, that's lots of fun. One of those swimming pools outside in the snow, maybe a ski chase, great! When folks talk about The Rock starring Connery as Bond in everything but name who had been locked up in that famous prison, that made me imagine another TB remake around that time, with Bond having been imprisoned in HMP Shrublands and spotting something fishy about his fellow inmate Count Lippe!
I liked your improvements emtiem actually.
Thank you- I like yours too! Okay: here's my villain's plan for TB- Spectre say they're holding London and Washington to ransom, but unbeknownst to Largo the plan is actually to drop all of the bombs on the west side of the Bahamas regardless using the Vulcan: the resulting tidal wave destroys the coasts of both Miami and Cuba (Spectre have no affiliation to East nor West), and Spectre's legitimate real estate and construction arms are posed to sweep in and buy up the destroyed areas and rebuild them to enormous profit. Largo, as someone who lives in the Bahamas, is appalled- his job was basically just to protect the bombs until they go off in his face. The ransom was only ever an attempt to make some extra money.
Fiona works more directly for Number One, and when Bond uncovers the plan and Largo finds out, he rebels and she kills Largo. She tries to make a getaway in the Vulcan, taking off from the rising underwater runway, but 007 stops the plane and Domino kills her, getting revenge for her brother (don't forget Fiona was more responsible for that than Largo was- which is a weird bit of non-logic in the film!).
For me, the way it's portrayed just seems out of character. Bond was someone who always found a way out of a situation and while I appreciate why he's doing it, just giving up without even trying feels wrong to me.
Yes, several people have remarked that “Bond always found a way”….I’m probably swimming against the tide, but I love the fact Bond dies at the end…it’s what DC wanted, and I’m happy enough they did it…doesn’t mean the franchise has ended - although it does give that appearance at the moment 👀 - and I wouldn’t want Bond to die again anytime soon…
- Don't have Bond force himself on Pussy Galore. Instead fellow the book and have her change sides when she discovers Goldfinger planned to kill the soldiers with gas and not just stun them as she was told.
- After one of the gangsters opts out of Goldfinger's plan, we see him being driven off. Next we see a pickup with the crushed car in the back return.
- Before the attack on Fort Knox we see the cars leave Blofeld's ranch. Then we cut directly to inside Fort Knox. We hear the fence getting blown off. Then we hear the cars, then we see the laser cutting open the door and a truck pulling the door off. Then battle starts. Ideally we see one or two guards on the inside reacting to all this. (Both this change and the crushed car cuts away long redundant scenes showing how things are done. In my version the audience understand what has happened, and we concentrated on what's important and exciting to watch.
Speed up and tighten up all of the stealing of the Tiger, the Goldeneye and blowing up of Servenaya scenes. Potentially get this all done in 15 mins?
Give us a reason to care about the Goldeneye by blowing up a city or sending an island somewhere back to the dark ages.
Get rid of the entire Alec Trevelyan character and boring betrayal back story and just make the villain Oromov - it's interesting enough having ex Soviet Union threats in the 1990s.
That's a fair point re: Alec Trevelyan and one I had never considered. The stuff surrounding the cossacks and the Second World war does seem a bit odd when you consider we are in 1995 - I mean terrible stuff sure, but get over it Alec, you've had a good life in the West, right? Where's all this power crazy stuff stem from? A bit of revenge on poor old mother blighty? And a tremendously elaborate and long winded plan, years in the execution. Oromov on the other hand - unhinged, alcoholic, put upon subordinate, working in a collapsing state, seeking power and glory beyond his station - he has all the attributes for a nutcase villain ! Personally, we should have had Robbie Coltrane as an unhinged oligarch, but you can't have everything.
The timeline doesn't make sense, does it? I mean, it was written so Alec was an older, mentor figure so he'd have been born in WW2 or something but Bean is too young to make that work. I think someone did try to justify it but I can't figure it out. The 'nine years later' thing is a spanner in the works because it messes up Bond's story - implies he spent his 30s doing not very much. Okay, Craig messed that up more as it's unclear his character ever did the things Fleming's Bond did, save for CR.
^ yeah, the Alec stuff is an over-engineered element of the script that isn't needed. It bogs down the movie and Sean Bean's portrayal is pretty whiney and annoying. That being said, the fight between Bond and Alec at the end is pretty damn good.
For Your Eyes Only:
The best parts of the movie and Moore's performance for that matter, are the parts with age-appropriate actors like Topol and Cassandra Harris. Thus, make Cassandra Harris the main Bond girl, get rid of Bibi and make Melina (slightly younger) a niece of Lisl who's parents are killed by Gonzalez. Lisl and Melina are set on revenge and we still have Bond playing father figure and mentor.
Don't bother with John Glen. Get someone good and prevent us from having five movies in a row. This would give the film a bit more polish and hopefully avoid the 'insert action here' and goofiness.
Being on a small fishing boat in some ways lessens the significance of the ATAC. Perhaps have the ATAC stolen from a recently sunk frigate or something, and then have it hidden in a fishing boat and the mission is to discover the stolen ATAC instead of it just sitting there. It would give the device a bit more oomph.
I like those films but I must admit I can imagine a version of LTK which is more successful for me with a punchier director there. With the Kamen score it's kind of hard not to compare it with a McTiernan or a Donner, and it's just not the same energy as the sort of thing those guys were making at the time.
I've always had the feeling that from Bond's perspective, what happens is a real tragedy precisely because Felix survives. From this point, Felix will have to live with the burden of guilt. Having his wife killed because of his job is the worst curse ever, and it makes Bond's rage much more intense considering his own background.
My main issue with Dr No is Bond himself: I think he's a bit too sour and humourless and comes off as quite unlikeable at times, stuff like his standoffish attitude with Strangways' staff, and he seems especially mardy when they're all sat at the table in the dance club. I'm not too fond of the way he basically gets Quarrel killed and shows no remorse for it. He's not quite fully formed yet, but they absolutely nailed it for the next film.
Perhaps it's just me, but I've always had the feeling Bond lacks of humanity in DN. He's incredibly charismatic and I enjoy the film, but I never really succeeded to identify with the character in this one (except in the dinner scene), while I absolutely love the way he's written in FRWL, not forgetting Connery's magnificent performance.
Comments
TB
1. Don't reveal S.P.E.C.T.R.E.'s plan until much later in the film so the story has more tension.
2. Cut the length of the underwater battles near the climax.
3. Either cut superfluous characters, like Paula, or given them the screen time they deserve so, in this example, we feel the loss of her death. I'd also like more time with Domino so we understand her motivations more.
I think with Thunderball I'd change Spectre's plan: someone who is going to set off a nuke is scarier than someone who might set off a nuke if you don't pay them (do they even consider paying up?). I'd also put Bond right where the bomb is due to go off: putting our hero in direct danger is more thrilling than the bomb being thousands of miles away: it's how the previous film had it after all.
I think I'd also change it to make Fiona the main baddie: she's way better onscreen than Largo and there's actually some emotion when her and Bond are together. Have Largo think he's leading the ransom plot only for Fiona to reveal Spectre have a much more evil plot in mind and are doublecrossing him.
I'd have the film just be more crazy and colourful in general. Compared to Goldfinger all of the big, cartoony elements have gone and the whole story is a bit duller and more conventional.
Thunderball sometimes has the air of a victory parade - let's do the same thing again, only happy and secure - and with nobs on!
It's also a bit perfunctory because EON were bounced into doing it to stop McClory having a rival movie raining on their parade.
On top of which, the plot is a problem because - and they were to resolve this with YOLT and TSWLM - it lacks a sub-plot of substance. If you're not really into underwater action and the villain's plot, it's a sitting duck or lame duck cos that's all there is. In YOLT it deals as much with Bond's culture clash with the Far East, more in fact than it does with space capsules, likewise TSWLM is as much about the tension between MI6 and the Soviet Union and Triple X as it is about missing submarines - these pull off the trick of soap operas in that they have two plots going on at the same time, neither of which by themselves may be that interesting. TB doesn't have that though it chooses instead to be two separate movies almost, one north of Paris and at Shrublands, the other in Nassau.
The killing of Domino's brother is sort of a sub plot but belongs in a melodrama, a 1950s film.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Yeah, it is a 1950s plot, ultimately. Goldfinger had pushed into the 60s, but TB went backwards rather. It's a very good point about the sub-plot: it's very simplistic. I'd like to see a version which adapts the book with the same sense of craziness and wit that they added to GF and YOLT.
do any of the elements in Never Say Never Again address the need for more crazy kooky cartooniness?
the video game duel is certainly a crazier evolution from the oldschool card games, but personally is the most awkward part of the film for me
on the positive side, the hijacking of the missiles is far more visual and fun to watch than the equivalent scene in Thunderball
I agree Paula's character is so underdeveloped to be almost pointless, even her sacrificial lamb sequence is a digression that makes little narrative sense. Also Fiona is indeed more interesting than both Domino and Largo.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I keep meaning to add more to this thread, but I want to go in chronological order, and I cant think of a single thing I'd change in From Russia with Love. I can see why @IcePak just skips ahead to the fourth film
do any of the elements in Never Say Never Again address the need for more crazy kooky cartooniness?
I guess it does, but it's fitting into the 70s/80s mould of Bond films by then, with the horse chase and gadget motorcycle etc.
I suppose I just would have liked to have a version of TB which fits a bit more with GF or YOLT. There isn't even a crazy lair! Give me an evil underwater dome or sinister submarine or something. And the henchman's quirk is literally that he doesn't do anything interesting. What do you do, Vargas?
Steal the Vulcan and land it on an airstrip which rises out of the sea, seal it in a dome under the water so Fiona can try to fly it away at the climax of the film. I dunno, something like that.
Well, there have been various screenplays over the years, and most fall into the trap - Warhead in particular - of ramping it up to excess but again, with no sub plot or nuance, it's hard to get behind it. I liked your improvements emtiem actually. TSWLM was likely intended to shoot McClory's fox a bit, being an underwater Bond film - but it had not only a sub plot but snow and desert, in case you don't take to that. NSNA did none of that, there's little visual variety. I'd have had Shrublands as maybe a Swiss spa set near a NATO air base, just to offer something different - but they were unclear whether they were remaking the novel or the film, and how far they could deviate from either.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I find it funny that NSNA switches location from the Bahamas to the South of France- I doubt many people even noticed because a tropical town by the sea in the sunshine (with pretty much exclusively white faces) looks much like a Mediterranean town by the sea in the sunshine on the big screen!
I like the idea of the Swiss spa, that's lots of fun. One of those swimming pools outside in the snow, maybe a ski chase, great! When folks talk about The Rock starring Connery as Bond in everything but name who had been locked up in that famous prison, that made me imagine another TB remake around that time, with Bond having been imprisoned in HMP Shrublands and spotting something fishy about his fellow inmate Count Lippe!
I liked your improvements emtiem actually.
Thank you- I like yours too! Okay: here's my villain's plan for TB- Spectre say they're holding London and Washington to ransom, but unbeknownst to Largo the plan is actually to drop all of the bombs on the west side of the Bahamas regardless using the Vulcan: the resulting tidal wave destroys the coasts of both Miami and Cuba (Spectre have no affiliation to East nor West), and Spectre's legitimate real estate and construction arms are posed to sweep in and buy up the destroyed areas and rebuild them to enormous profit. Largo, as someone who lives in the Bahamas, is appalled- his job was basically just to protect the bombs until they go off in his face. The ransom was only ever an attempt to make some extra money.
Fiona works more directly for Number One, and when Bond uncovers the plan and Largo finds out, he rebels and she kills Largo. She tries to make a getaway in the Vulcan, taking off from the rising underwater runway, but 007 stops the plane and Domino kills her, getting revenge for her brother (don't forget Fiona was more responsible for that than Largo was- which is a weird bit of non-logic in the film!).
I too like the three suggestions for TB. the comments about the locations make a lot of sense too.
For me, the way it's portrayed just seems out of character. Bond was someone who always found a way out of a situation and while I appreciate why he's doing it, just giving up without even trying feels wrong to me.
8. SF 9. NTTD 10. AVtaK 11. TMwtGG 12. LtK 13. TSWLM 14. TND
15. GF 16. MR 17. YOLT 18. LaLD 19. SP 20. DAD 21. TWiNE
22. DN 23. TB 24. QoS 25. DaF
It's the worst misstep in a film not short on missteps.
There is nothing he can do, and to even try would be to risk the lives of his family. It’s all very well-sown up.
Yes, several people have remarked that “Bond always found a way”….I’m probably swimming against the tide, but I love the fact Bond dies at the end…it’s what DC wanted, and I’m happy enough they did it…doesn’t mean the franchise has ended - although it does give that appearance at the moment 👀 - and I wouldn’t want Bond to die again anytime soon…
Goldeneye
yeah, I'm with Miles on that one. Even with the palpable lack of chemistry between Craig and Seydoux as actors, as CHARACTERS, that motivation works.
Casino Royale:
GF
- Don't have Bond force himself on Pussy Galore. Instead fellow the book and have her change sides when she discovers Goldfinger planned to kill the soldiers with gas and not just stun them as she was told.
- After one of the gangsters opts out of Goldfinger's plan, we see him being driven off. Next we see a pickup with the crushed car in the back return.
- Before the attack on Fort Knox we see the cars leave Blofeld's ranch. Then we cut directly to inside Fort Knox. We hear the fence getting blown off. Then we hear the cars, then we see the laser cutting open the door and a truck pulling the door off. Then battle starts. Ideally we see one or two guards on the inside reacting to all this. (Both this change and the crushed car cuts away long redundant scenes showing how things are done. In my version the audience understand what has happened, and we concentrated on what's important and exciting to watch.
Goldeneye:
Speed up and tighten up all of the stealing of the Tiger, the Goldeneye and blowing up of Servenaya scenes. Potentially get this all done in 15 mins?
Give us a reason to care about the Goldeneye by blowing up a city or sending an island somewhere back to the dark ages.
Get rid of the entire Alec Trevelyan character and boring betrayal back story and just make the villain Oromov - it's interesting enough having ex Soviet Union threats in the 1990s.
"Better make that two."
That's a fair point re: Alec Trevelyan and one I had never considered. The stuff surrounding the cossacks and the Second World war does seem a bit odd when you consider we are in 1995 - I mean terrible stuff sure, but get over it Alec, you've had a good life in the West, right? Where's all this power crazy stuff stem from? A bit of revenge on poor old mother blighty? And a tremendously elaborate and long winded plan, years in the execution. Oromov on the other hand - unhinged, alcoholic, put upon subordinate, working in a collapsing state, seeking power and glory beyond his station - he has all the attributes for a nutcase villain ! Personally, we should have had Robbie Coltrane as an unhinged oligarch, but you can't have everything.
The timeline doesn't make sense, does it? I mean, it was written so Alec was an older, mentor figure so he'd have been born in WW2 or something but Bean is too young to make that work. I think someone did try to justify it but I can't figure it out. The 'nine years later' thing is a spanner in the works because it messes up Bond's story - implies he spent his 30s doing not very much. Okay, Craig messed that up more as it's unclear his character ever did the things Fleming's Bond did, save for CR.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
^ yeah, the Alec stuff is an over-engineered element of the script that isn't needed. It bogs down the movie and Sean Bean's portrayal is pretty whiney and annoying. That being said, the fight between Bond and Alec at the end is pretty damn good.
For Your Eyes Only:
The best parts of the movie and Moore's performance for that matter, are the parts with age-appropriate actors like Topol and Cassandra Harris. Thus, make Cassandra Harris the main Bond girl, get rid of Bibi and make Melina (slightly younger) a niece of Lisl who's parents are killed by Gonzalez. Lisl and Melina are set on revenge and we still have Bond playing father figure and mentor.
Don't bother with John Glen. Get someone good and prevent us from having five movies in a row. This would give the film a bit more polish and hopefully avoid the 'insert action here' and goofiness.
Being on a small fishing boat in some ways lessens the significance of the ATAC. Perhaps have the ATAC stolen from a recently sunk frigate or something, and then have it hidden in a fishing boat and the mission is to discover the stolen ATAC instead of it just sitting there. It would give the device a bit more oomph.
"Better make that two."
I'm ok with John Glen for FYEO but that's about it. I hold him personally responsible for almost ruining Bond for the next four films.
I like those films but I must admit I can imagine a version of LTK which is more successful for me with a punchier director there. With the Kamen score it's kind of hard not to compare it with a McTiernan or a Donner, and it's just not the same energy as the sort of thing those guys were making at the time.
I've always had the feeling that from Bond's perspective, what happens is a real tragedy precisely because Felix survives. From this point, Felix will have to live with the burden of guilt. Having his wife killed because of his job is the worst curse ever, and it makes Bond's rage much more intense considering his own background.
Yeah that's a good point.
DAD
Genius idea!
Rrrrrr
*Dr. No* hardly needs improving, but if I had to nitpick:
1) Fix any wardrobe mistakes on Bond, namely whenever he fastens the bottom button on his jacket.
2) Could the car chase have been improved between the Sunbeam Alpine and the hearse?
3) The ‘dragon’ sequence could be a bit more convincing, why doesn’t Quarrel move out the way?
My main issue with Dr No is Bond himself: I think he's a bit too sour and humourless and comes off as quite unlikeable at times, stuff like his standoffish attitude with Strangways' staff, and he seems especially mardy when they're all sat at the table in the dance club. I'm not too fond of the way he basically gets Quarrel killed and shows no remorse for it. He's not quite fully formed yet, but they absolutely nailed it for the next film.
Perhaps it's just me, but I've always had the feeling Bond lacks of humanity in DN. He's incredibly charismatic and I enjoy the film, but I never really succeeded to identify with the character in this one (except in the dinner scene), while I absolutely love the way he's written in FRWL, not forgetting Connery's magnificent performance.