It will be interesting to see in the next film whether or not Vesper's boyfriend (should he be in it!!)is the bad guy or if Bond is asked to rescue him from those holding him.
I know it might come across as predictable but saving him (if he is some sort of innocent in all this) or killing him (if he was behind the manipulation that caused the demise of Vesper) would perhaps see Bond soften again slightly in the next film. He would be doing it to mark his love for her which I can't believe was turned off so easily once he found out she was being blackmailed into doing what she did.
{[] Great minds think alike, Lavabubble. I've said before that I like the idea of the boyfriend being innocent and Bond saving him. I don't think it's predictable at all, and it has real dramatic possibilities for Bond's character. Bond finds it hard to believe Vesper ever really loved him, yet feels compelled to save his rival, both out of natural curiosity about the guy, but also as a way of keeping his love fore Vesper alive. He doesn't tell the boyfriend about his involvement with her. In the process, he discovers that "true" love is about loving another person whether or not you're loved in return. It's got that "Casablanca" vibe.
Script by Wade, Purvis and Haggis
From a story by Lavabubble and Highhopes
I like the sound of that, although audiences may be a little perplexed )
Thanks for your comments there HH {[]- I didn't want to come across as some demented and slightly emotional woman and its nice to know that there's more than me thinking along these lines for a future plotline!! I rarely see happy endings in films and although this one would be marred by the tragedy of Vesper's death, for Bond at least she wouldn't have died in vain.
*off to read some Barbara Cartland/Catherine Cookson novels now *
Green just never did anything for me,There's only 2-3 sence's she looks like a bond girl in.the rest of the time she looks boring.i wouldn't rank he rthe worst bond girl,but somewhere around mid list
I don't think Green was a Bond girl in the classic, disposable Bond film sexpot sense. I liked Green very much. I think Murino would have been all wrong for the Vesper role. Too much of a bombshell. Vesper needed to project the vulnerability behind this smart career woman, and Green managed that, I think.
With apologies to Eva Green, I thought she didn't have any of character depth needed to be Vesper. My opinion of this is from the film, not from reading the book.
I think what was needed was someone a little more of a Lauren Bacall type. Vesper never seemed to have much going on in her head or to be capable of doing... well, anything really.
In Vesper and Bond's first meeting there was no spark from her or depth to her and although the words should have been challenging Bond a little, they were just delivered, she didn't appear to understand what she was saying. Not previously knowing the story, I fully expected her to be killed off within a very short space of time as a highly throw away Bond girl. It was all rather wooden and at no point did I get the impression that Bond would have even given such an ineffectual woman a second glance let alone fallen in love, (although I did think that could have been possible from the script, although needing a little more during Bond's convalesence).
This was not vulnerability that was being shown, which would have been good, it was insipidity.
When Bond wanted to kill her I was almost cheering AT LAST! So I certainly wasn't disappointed by her killing herself (although it was not clear in the film why she was doing so - someone in this forum said guilt, but I guessed it was because she wasn't going to see her love any more after it had all gone wrong), but was disappointed with Bond for caring about it.
Sorry to those who are in love with her, but Eva as Vesper was the only thing that stopped this Bond film from being one of the very top Bond films ever for me.
I think she was chosen because the makers were a little worried about the reaction to Daniel Craig as Bond and so wanted to ensure there was no competition to him - it wasn't necessary as he was excellent. They should have had more faith in him.
Reading all these posts praising Eva Green as Vesper I was begining to wonder if I watched the same movie as everyone else. Finally came to the post by Yetanotherbondfan, at least someone feels the same as me. I didn't think there was any chemistry between her and Daniel Craig. Her death should have been sad but for me it wasn't, I was glad when she finally died.
I don't see how anyone can compare her death to that of Tracey in OHMSS. Despite the acting ability of George Lazenby there was a chemistry between him and Diana Rigg that made their love believable. When Tracey died at the end of OHMSS it was extremely sad, probably George Lazenby's finest acting moment. I couldn't imagine Sean Connery doing that scene.
As for Vesper killing herself, she knew that once she had been found to be a double agent she would have received the same treatment as the innocent Mathis. She took the easy way out.
Gotta say, this is a very interesting thread, and the range of replies puts me in mind that CR accomplished at least one thing that I think is vital to the character of Vesper: she's enigmatic, enough that subscribing multiple motivations (er, maybe interpretations?) to her actually works. Even knowing the story ahead of time, I walked out with questions about her and what and why she did what she did--and I liked having those questions. Anyway, worked for me, how they handled her in the film. Different than how Tracy came off in OHMSS, but effective still IMO.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,991Quartermasters
edited November 2006
I completely understand complaints/criticisms about the romance between Bond and Vesper feeling a bit 'rushed'...but we must remember that we're watching a Bond film, after all, and the romance must be necessarily brief in order to make room for the chases, explosions and intrigue :007)
OHMSS, which I have now firmly come to believe is CR's 'sister film,' is the only other movie in which we are asked to believe that Bond truly falls for the main love interest of the piece---and that one also receives similar criticism, in that Hunt depicted their romance in a brief (albeit effective, IMRO) montage sequence, over which Louis Armstrong sings the magnificent "We Have All The Time In The World."
Truth be told, Bond falls for both of these ladies rather quickly in the books as well...
It's love---how else to justify it? :x
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I bought into the romance, though I would have preferred more development. Fleming more or less created Bond as a tragic figure, and that tragedy is played out in any number of ways in the books. Vesper suggests how romance in his life will always turn sour, and Tracey, years later, is Bond's chance for some hope and redemption, in that while Vesper kills herself, Bond saves Tracey in the beginning of the novel from suicide. That she dies anyway at the end is a kind of final note about Bond and his life's capacity for the ordinary happiness accorded others.
Though Diana Rigg's Tracey does more for me than Eva Green's Vesper, they are both very strong women in their own way, and I was especially pleased to see Vesper come to Bond's aid during the stairwell fight, trying to get the gun away from Bond's assailant. It was analogous to Tracey's defending herself against Grunther in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" and places her in a relatively rare position for women in a Bond film.
I bought into the romance, though I would have preferred more development. Fleming more or less created Bond as a tragic figure, and that tragedy is played out in any number of ways in the books. Vesper suggests how romance in his life will always turn sour, and Tracey, years later, is Bond's chance for some hope and redemption, in that while Vesper kills herself, Bond saves Tracey in the beginning of the novel from suicide. That she dies anyway at the end is a kind of final note about Bond and his life's capacity for the ordinary happiness accorded others.
Though Diana Rigg's Tracey does more for me than Eva Green's Vesper, they are both very strong women in their own way, and I was especially pleased to see Vesper come to Bond's aid during the stairwell fight, trying to get the gun away from Bond's assailant. It was analogous to Tracey's defending herself against Grunther in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" and places her in a relatively rare position for women in a Bond film.
I think it should be noted that Vesper (Eva Green) is played well. She is a very intelligent woman and is probably why she captures the attention of Bond. She is not easy to come by, and acting as a stubborn person with more than one interest yet finds a way of falling in love for the man that is allegedly made out of steel in the heart is rather interesting to say the least. She captures Bond's heart by the way she is. Tracey seems like a different type of women. However, I guess it should be noted that to much comparison between Vesper--which is a modern version of a female in our society. One that has gained an equal status to many--and that of Tracey--a more traditional women in society which in a way can be considered submissive--may be a mistake. Looking away from the novel we have to pay attention to the actual years that the film took place and who were the actresses. Eva Green said it herself. She was not going to be another Bond girl and that is what she liked about Vesper. I think Vesper being his first love is correctly and incredibly played by Eva Green. Hard around the edges, yet soft in the inside. I don't know if anyone gets what I am saying. Maybe someone will and further clarification will help.
I have some serious issues with the Vesper/Bond relationship though I think they stem more from film-making than basic concept. A good deal of the dialogue reminded me too much of Lucas and Star Wars in that real people simply don't talk like that ... especially women (the whole "your little finger is better ... " speech is utterly preposterous and Green's deliver so OTT that my normally industrial-strength suspension of disbelief pretty much shut down from that point on.)
My real reason for posting here, though, is I wonder what anyone else's thoughts are on her name. Bond comments when they meet that she must have hated her parents for it which I find a little odd; in Latin "Vesper" means "evening star" which seems rather nice actually. In liturgy it becomes rather complicated though I'm still not sure something to be embarassed by. However, I've thought for years that, CR being a Cold Ward era tome, "Vesper Lynd" was somehow meant to sound like "West Berlin." Anyone else ever draw a similar conclusion? Or am I alone in my, er, hearing with an accent?
Which death was more tragic, Tracy's or Vesper's? That's the kinda discussion I'd hope there'd be after CR got made. Woo hoo!
Tracy's no doubt,in CR when M call's James on the money,you knew she alittle bitch and needed/was going to die.I left like she was using James all along.
Which death was more tragic, Tracy's or Vesper's? That's the kinda discussion I'd hope there'd be after CR got made. Woo hoo!
Tracy's no doubt,in CR when M call's James on the money,you knew she alittle bitch and needed/was going to die.I left like she was using James all along.
That was what made the entire scene a killer. When M tells Bond what really happened, look at Craig's face. See the realization, and then the hate building up again. It was a beautiful piece of acting, and I think we'll be seeing the effects of Vespers actions and death on Bond for a few films to come.
Tracy's no doubt,in CR when M call's James on the money,you knew she alittle bitch and needed/was going to die.I left like she was using James all along.
That was what made the entire scene a killer. When M tells Bond what really happened, look at Craig's face. See the realization, and then the hate building up again. It was a beautiful piece of acting, and I think we'll be seeing the effects of Vespers actions and death on Bond for a few films to come.
Was the hate still on Bond's face after M concluded that Vesper had made a deal to save his life?
I felt it was still there, hints of it at any rate. Nothing M could tell him was going to erase it all in one moment. That sort of forgiveness comes over time.
Also, as Bond was obviously the love of her life, what life could they have together after such a betrayal? She was essentially saying, if I can't have you then I don't want to live. Powerful stuff.
I really hoped and wanted to see more of Caterina Murino, seriously underused. For me, she definitely appears more like a natural Bond girl beauty than Eva Green, but Green is the better actress and is a very worthy Vesper. For the most part, Green appears with plenty of make up, but it's actually the scene in the bathroom where she doesn't have any make up on that she looks her most attractive.
I agree Caterina was underused but i think they got it right! I dont think she was more of a 'Vesper Lynd' than Eva Green was, she was just tooooo stunning for a start!
When she walked into the Ocean Club bar in that red dress, that would have been the wrong time to put any popcorn in your mouth as you would have been picking it up off the floor! I mean, i just couldnt concentrate on the film whilst she was on screen! :x :x :x ;%
Possibly the most stunning 'Bond girl' in 21 films that he doesnt manage to bed?
I really hoped and wanted to see more of Caterina Murino, seriously underused. For me, she definitely appears more like a natural Bond girl beauty than Eva Green, but Green is the better actress and is a very worthy Vesper. For the most part, Green appears with plenty of make up, but it's actually the scene in the bathroom where she doesn't have any make up on that she looks her most attractive.
I agree Caterina was underused but i think they got it right! I dont think she was more of a 'Vesper Lynd' than Eva Green was, she was just tooooo stunning for a start!
When she walked into the Ocean Club bar in that red dress, that would have been the wrong time to put any popcorn in your mouth as you would have been picking it up off the floor! I mean, i just couldnt concentrate on the film whilst she was on screen! :x :x :x ;%
Possibly the most stunning 'Bond girl' in 21 films that he doesnt manage to bed?
Oh, he could have managed it. She certainly was willing. But look at it this way: Craig's Bond is such a babe-magnet, he can pass up Murino without blinking an eye. No big deal. Now THAT'S James Bond. )
But you're right. She would have been all wrong for Vesper who I don't see as the typical Bond sexpot, but rather a delicate young woman who is in way over her head. In fact, much as Bond describes her on the train.
And I agree about Eva's make up. She actually has incredibly beautiful eyes, when you can see them, as in the hotel scene. But she messes them up by applying mascara like a 14-year-old playing with her mother's makeup. But oddly, it seems to fit Vesper's character, who I see as someone who is not quite as mature as she thinks she is.
I bought into the romance, though I would have preferred more development. Fleming more or less created Bond as a tragic figure, and that tragedy is played out in any number of ways in the books. Vesper suggests how romance in his life will always turn sour, and Tracey, years later, is Bond's chance for some hope and redemption, in that while Vesper kills herself, Bond saves Tracey in the beginning of the novel from suicide. That she dies anyway at the end is a kind of final note about Bond and his life's capacity for the ordinary happiness accorded others.
Though Diana Rigg's Tracey does more for me than Eva Green's Vesper, they are both very strong women in their own way, and I was especially pleased to see Vesper come to Bond's aid during the stairwell fight, trying to get the gun away from Bond's assailant. It was analogous to Tracey's defending herself against Grunther in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" and places her in a relatively rare position for women in a Bond film.
I think it should be noted that Vesper (Eva Green) is played well. She is a very intelligent woman and is probably why she captures the attention of Bond. She is not easy to come by, and acting as a stubborn person with more than one interest yet finds a way of falling in love for the man that is allegedly made out of steel in the heart is rather interesting to say the least. She captures Bond's heart by the way she is. Tracey seems like a different type of women. However, I guess it should be noted that to much comparison between Vesper--which is a modern version of a female in our society. One that has gained an equal status to many--and that of Tracey--a more traditional women in society which in a way can be considered submissive--may be a mistake. Looking away from the novel we have to pay attention to the actual years that the film took place and who were the actresses. Eva Green said it herself. She was not going to be another Bond girl and that is what she liked about Vesper. I think Vesper being his first love is correctly and incredibly played by Eva Green. Hard around the edges, yet soft in the inside. I don't know if anyone gets what I am saying. Maybe someone will and further clarification will help.
They're both played well, though I would side with Tracey as the stronger of the two. I don't think she fit a submissive role at all (and she even points that out to her father). But such characterizations were not as uncommon in the 1960s as everyone seems to want to believe. Diana Rigg's Emma Peel (and Honor Blackman's Cathy Gale before her) were very independent, strong-willed women, as was Honey West, April Dancer, Cinnamon Carter, etc.
And I agree about Eva's make up. She actually has incredibly beautiful eyes, when you can see them, as in the hotel scene. But she messes them up by applying mascara like a 14-year-old playing with her mother's makeup.
LOL! Strange as well that Eva Green wears her make up the same as Vesper Lynd! I noticed.:D
Comments
You know what they say about great minds, Barry.
Caterina Murino certainly can dismount a horse. I wonder if she is a good rider?
Thanks for your comments there HH {[]- I didn't want to come across as some demented and slightly emotional woman and its nice to know that there's more than me thinking along these lines for a future plotline!! I rarely see happy endings in films and although this one would be marred by the tragedy of Vesper's death, for Bond at least she wouldn't have died in vain.
*off to read some Barbara Cartland/Catherine Cookson novels now
I think what was needed was someone a little more of a Lauren Bacall type. Vesper never seemed to have much going on in her head or to be capable of doing... well, anything really.
In Vesper and Bond's first meeting there was no spark from her or depth to her and although the words should have been challenging Bond a little, they were just delivered, she didn't appear to understand what she was saying. Not previously knowing the story, I fully expected her to be killed off within a very short space of time as a highly throw away Bond girl. It was all rather wooden and at no point did I get the impression that Bond would have even given such an ineffectual woman a second glance let alone fallen in love, (although I did think that could have been possible from the script, although needing a little more during Bond's convalesence).
This was not vulnerability that was being shown, which would have been good, it was insipidity.
When Bond wanted to kill her I was almost cheering AT LAST! So I certainly wasn't disappointed by her killing herself (although it was not clear in the film why she was doing so - someone in this forum said guilt, but I guessed it was because she wasn't going to see her love any more after it had all gone wrong), but was disappointed with Bond for caring about it.
Sorry to those who are in love with her, but Eva as Vesper was the only thing that stopped this Bond film from being one of the very top Bond films ever for me.
I think she was chosen because the makers were a little worried about the reaction to Daniel Craig as Bond and so wanted to ensure there was no competition to him - it wasn't necessary as he was excellent. They should have had more faith in him.
I don't see how anyone can compare her death to that of Tracey in OHMSS. Despite the acting ability of George Lazenby there was a chemistry between him and Diana Rigg that made their love believable. When Tracey died at the end of OHMSS it was extremely sad, probably George Lazenby's finest acting moment. I couldn't imagine Sean Connery doing that scene.
As for Vesper killing herself, she knew that once she had been found to be a double agent she would have received the same treatment as the innocent Mathis. She took the easy way out.
OHMSS, which I have now firmly come to believe is CR's 'sister film,' is the only other movie in which we are asked to believe that Bond truly falls for the main love interest of the piece---and that one also receives similar criticism, in that Hunt depicted their romance in a brief (albeit effective, IMRO) montage sequence, over which Louis Armstrong sings the magnificent "We Have All The Time In The World."
Truth be told, Bond falls for both of these ladies rather quickly in the books as well...
It's love---how else to justify it? :x
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Though Diana Rigg's Tracey does more for me than Eva Green's Vesper, they are both very strong women in their own way, and I was especially pleased to see Vesper come to Bond's aid during the stairwell fight, trying to get the gun away from Bond's assailant. It was analogous to Tracey's defending herself against Grunther in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" and places her in a relatively rare position for women in a Bond film.
I think it should be noted that Vesper (Eva Green) is played well. She is a very intelligent woman and is probably why she captures the attention of Bond. She is not easy to come by, and acting as a stubborn person with more than one interest yet finds a way of falling in love for the man that is allegedly made out of steel in the heart is rather interesting to say the least. She captures Bond's heart by the way she is. Tracey seems like a different type of women. However, I guess it should be noted that to much comparison between Vesper--which is a modern version of a female in our society. One that has gained an equal status to many--and that of Tracey--a more traditional women in society which in a way can be considered submissive--may be a mistake. Looking away from the novel we have to pay attention to the actual years that the film took place and who were the actresses. Eva Green said it herself. She was not going to be another Bond girl and that is what she liked about Vesper. I think Vesper being his first love is correctly and incredibly played by Eva Green. Hard around the edges, yet soft in the inside. I don't know if anyone gets what I am saying. Maybe someone will and further clarification will help.
My real reason for posting here, though, is I wonder what anyone else's thoughts are on her name. Bond comments when they meet that she must have hated her parents for it which I find a little odd; in Latin "Vesper" means "evening star" which seems rather nice actually. In liturgy it becomes rather complicated though I'm still not sure something to be embarassed by. However, I've thought for years that, CR being a Cold Ward era tome, "Vesper Lynd" was somehow meant to sound like "West Berlin." Anyone else ever draw a similar conclusion? Or am I alone in my, er, hearing with an accent?
Tracy's no doubt,in CR when M call's James on the money,you knew she alittle bitch and needed/was going to die.I left like she was using James all along.
That was what made the entire scene a killer. When M tells Bond what really happened, look at Craig's face. See the realization, and then the hate building up again. It was a beautiful piece of acting, and I think we'll be seeing the effects of Vespers actions and death on Bond for a few films to come.
I felt it was still there, hints of it at any rate. Nothing M could tell him was going to erase it all in one moment. That sort of forgiveness comes over time.
Guilt. She couldn't live with what she'd done.
I agree Caterina was underused but i think they got it right! I dont think she was more of a 'Vesper Lynd' than Eva Green was, she was just tooooo stunning for a start!
When she walked into the Ocean Club bar in that red dress, that would have been the wrong time to put any popcorn in your mouth as you would have been picking it up off the floor! I mean, i just couldnt concentrate on the film whilst she was on screen! :x :x :x ;%
Possibly the most stunning 'Bond girl' in 21 films that he doesnt manage to bed?
To put the name Caterina Murino and the word 'dismount' in the same sentence is quite frankly a disgrace!
Oh, he could have managed it. She certainly was willing. But look at it this way: Craig's Bond is such a babe-magnet, he can pass up Murino without blinking an eye. No big deal. Now THAT'S James Bond.
But you're right. She would have been all wrong for Vesper who I don't see as the typical Bond sexpot, but rather a delicate young woman who is in way over her head. In fact, much as Bond describes her on the train.
And I agree about Eva's make up. She actually has incredibly beautiful eyes, when you can see them, as in the hotel scene. But she messes them up by applying mascara like a 14-year-old playing with her mother's makeup. But oddly, it seems to fit Vesper's character, who I see as someone who is not quite as mature as she thinks she is.
LOL! Strange as well that Eva Green wears her make up the same as Vesper Lynd! I noticed.:D