Novel 6 Suggestion & Criticism Thread

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  • The Sly FoxThe Sly Fox USAPosts: 467MI6 Agent
    edited August 2007
    WG, I just read your recent edits to your last bit and they're all quite good! With that in mind, I went back and looked at my entry. Mine really was quite rough, so I made a few changes, mostly to the dialogue. Let me know what you all think. :)

    The story looks like its headed in a good direction, but what Delicious said has got me thinking: anyone who watches MythBusters knows that hypnosis cannot make someone do something they don't want to do. It's a thought that I had from the beginning, but didn't want to say anything (after all, it is a classic movie myth :D ), I wanted to see if anyone else would notice, and it seems someone did...

    I'm just afraid that to anyone who happens to know this, the story will lose a lot of its credibility. I'm more for going with the drug-induced amnesia that Delicious has suggested. Another idea would be for X to implant some form of auto-injection device (kind of like Zorin's horse steroid device in AVTAK) into 007, triggering it when Bond reaches the nuclear facility with Daya. Maybe the device would have PCP or something in it that would make someone go crazy (I'm not sure what would be in it, as I'm no drug expert).

    Again, just my two cents. :)

    By the way, DAWUSS, WG, have a great time! {[]
  • Willie GarvinWillie Garvin Posts: 1,412MI6 Agent
    edited September 2007
    WG, I just read your recent edits to your last bit and they're all quite good! With that in mind, I went back and looked at my entry. Mine really was quite rough, so I made a few changes, mostly to the dialogue. Let me know what you all think. :)

    The story looks like its headed in a good direction, but what Delicious said has got me thinking: anyone who watches MythBusters knows that hypnosis cannot make someone do something they don't want to do. It's a thought that I had from the beginning, but didn't want to say anything (after all, it is a classic movie myth :D ), I wanted to see if anyone else would notice, and it seems someone did...

    I'm just afraid that to anyone who happens to know this, the story will lose a lot of its credibility. I'm more for going with the drug-induced amnesia that Delicious has suggested. Another idea would be for X to implant some form of auto-injection device (kind of like Zorin's horse steroid device in AVTAK) into 007, triggering it when Bond reaches the nuclear facility with Daya. Maybe the device would have PCP or something in it that would make someone go crazy (I'm not sure what would be in it, as I'm no drug expert).

    Again, just my two cents. :)

    By the way, DAWUSS, WG, have a great time! {[]


    Thanks for the kind words,Sly.Your comments are always appreciated.I'm very impressed with the alterations you made.The changes are more subtle than anything else, yet they definitely do underscore the reality that Max Obsidian and his mistress Adriana are very bad people, and that Max in particular, is a very challenging opponent for 007.

    Although what you'd written previously might've been a bit rough in your eyes,I don't think it was at all.Still, one thing we all have to remember is that we're not writing the final drafts of our entries on the first or even second times around.Everything we've written will probably benefit from a polishing prior to(and perhaps also during)the editing for publication.

    Oh,I knew about the hypnotism,too(Penn and Teller explained this on B******t), but thought that since 007 doesn't really live in the same world we do, that certain dramatic allowances might be acceptable.Only Mandrake the Magician can REALLY hypnotise people successfully.The knowledge that somebody won't do things that are against their nature while under hypnosis(aside from silly things like barking-which is also debatable) has been the basis of many mystery novels--some dating back to the late 19th century.For example,Sherlock Holmes once pointed out this very fallacy.Simon Templar did this in the 1930s.

    Anyway,I've now altered my entry considerably, but having done so,I'll admit that I'm not too keen about the idea of Bond being given another identity and then being sent off into MI6 to take out all of the people he's been lead to believe are rotten to the core.Too Manchurian Candidate for my taste.

    Whatever,if 007 does indeed get a new name, then hopefully he won't be rechristened "Steve Dethman"-I'm sure that considerable thought went into the name, but in my opinion it just sounds all too obvious and frankly,too much like something an action figure might have.

    Why not take something from Ian Fleming instead?For instance,there's the name of the killer who once came very close to taking 007 out of the picture forever:Red Grant.But one could reverse the order of the first name and surname--so instead of using the name "Donovan Grant",he'd be called "Grant Donovan".I think this has the virtue of not only looking and sounding believable, but it also demonstrates just how large Maximillian Obsidian's ego is, and also how much he really looks down his nose at 007--regardless of any contrary behavior.Furthermore,it would also illustrate Obsidian's sense of irony.It's not a perfect suggestion,of course, but I'm not sure it's not horrible either.If 007 has no memory, this particular name probably wouldn't trigger any memories,and it isn't so overtly unusual that it couldn't be found in a phone book.

    Of course,perhaps that could help 007 recall something at a later point in the tale-- possibly before his going into action-- when 007 accidentally sees it in its proper order(upside down, in a mirror) but even then while not remembering his own name,it might nevertheless set off minor flashbacks(to cause him to doubt his artificial existence), and thus use his extremely minimal recollections to order to try and fight against Mr.X's commands.

    This is fiction after all, and 007's will is always remarkably strong.This might make for a very cool sequence,showing that 007's nobody's prisoner.

    Or alternately,amnesiac Bond could possibly be called "Robert Markham"(in honor of Kingsley Amis's ineffective and historically pointless pen name, at the time when he authored Colonel Sun).Fans of the Bond novels would probably appreciate this,while to everyone else,it'd just be another name.There are probably hundreds of much better names to consider--these are only a couple of suggestions.

    But anyway I've now drugged 007 up(forcably and intravenously because I think that's far more frightening than Bond just taking a pill or drinking a fluid), and have hopefully arranged things so that whoever follows me can take this story wherever he chooses...

    Please give this revision another once over and tell me what you think.

    I can always use the feedback.

    In fact,I'd really like to see feedback from everybody on the team in regards to the revisions in this entry.
  • DAWUSSDAWUSS My homepagePosts: 517MI6 Agent
    I was thinking Obs could convince 007 into doing something in his favor, where Bond would think Obsidian (under an alias no less) is his ally. Of course, I doubt Bond would ever willingly launch a nuke anywhere, so it would probably have to be something a bit more subtle.


    One idea (which probably won't happen because it would involve yet another rewrite) could be where Obsidian bails Bond out of that interrogation situation, and the "friendship" starts from there.
  • Willie GarvinWillie Garvin Posts: 1,412MI6 Agent
    edited August 2007
    A few random thoughts:

    1)One thing no one's dealt with yet is the program that's creating all kinds of problems on the MI6 computers.What's it doing exactly?Who,among the computer geniuses at MI6 is dealing with it?Such an entry could be very suspenseful.

    2)And then there's Jari's murderer.Who is he?What position does he hold at MI6?Is he a Double-O already under Mr.X's control, or is he an MI6 clerk who was dispatched by Mr.X to kill Jari?Did he kill Jari at the wrong time--possibly a week or so too soon?It'd be nice to know what's going on here.

    3)And there's Jari's dying clue.Will anyone connect Blackstone with Obsidian?Bill Tanner seems intrigued...

    4)What's Daya up to?


    Granted,these subplots don't deal directly with 007, but they're all important elements of the novel nonetheless, and each of their stories could make for some very exciting reading.
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    edited August 2007
    Just got caught up on your changes, Willie. You've made some excellent additions to the whole monologue sequence. It's also a nice touch to see a link back the last AJB novel...the continuity adds a good element, I think.

    In regards to the lingering plot threads you mentioned above, I'd also like to see some expansion of SC1's last entry regarding the unsuspecting psychologist, Albert Zimbardo...another pending victim of Obsidian's attempt to regain his memory? Perhaps this can be an individual imprisoned by Obsidian, somehow befriends Bond and can 'undo' the damage done to Bond by Obsidian's 'mind-control' process.
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    darenhat wrote:
    Just got caught up on your changes, Willie. You've made some excellent additions to the whole monologue sequence. It's also a nice touch to see a link back the last AJB novel...the continuity adds a good element, I think.

    In regards to the lingering plot threads you mentioned above, I'd also like to see some expansion of SC1's last entry regarding the unsuspecting psychologist, Albert Zimbardo...another pending victim of Obsidian's attempt to regain his memory? Perhaps this can be an individual imprisoned by Obsidian, somehow befriends Bond and can 'undo' the damage done to Bond by Obsidian's 'mind-control' process.

    Its funny you should say that Darren - My Idea was for Zimbardo to initially be falling foul of Obsidian in the sense he has to work with his psychological state and then he comes into contact with 007 and they help each other -Zimbardo helping Bond realise his true place in the scheme of things and Bond in turn liberating Zimbardo from his captors.

    I think also Daya's involvement should be made a little more prominent is some way -but please realise I'm not saying this because they are characters I have created but rather the way they have been incorporated into the plot already means their roles could be important in the flow of the tale.
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    Ok -I've just had a look at when we are posting our contributions -it seems we haven't stuck to the three day rule with the next person in line coming into play when it is time to contribute quickly enough -I am worried that we won't get this first draft completed quickly enough for when those that will be editing take over. Remember this tale needs to be done and dusted by Christmas that means we literally only have about another four to five weeks to complete this draft. If we don't have it complete by then -then it will be delayed and as you already know it has been a long time in coming this tale thanks to my unintentional sabbatical last year -so please guys I implore you to get cracking - if anyone is not likely to have a chance to post they need to let us know -I will probably continue the tale tomorrow if I haven't heard anything from anyone.
    Jason.
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    I am more than willing to contribute my bit, but I was waiting for DAWUSS. If for some reason, he is unable to post, then I don't mind adding something in the next day or so. I know that Willie G and Golrush said they would be out for bit, but I have heard no news regarding DAWUSS. If I need to step up, just let me know.
  • DAWUSSDAWUSS My homepagePosts: 517MI6 Agent
    Sorry I've been a little busier than usual the past 2 days, and there was that moment when we were discussing plot directions and ideas and all that. I should have it in by tomorrow (which starts in about a half hour here lol)
  • DAWUSSDAWUSS My homepagePosts: 517MI6 Agent
    The rough version's in. I basically used this to introduce yet another character to solve MI-6's computer problems (IMO he could turn into a recurring character for future novels).
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    Okay! I'm on my bit. I have the rest of the day free, so I may be able to post my contribution this afternoon. :)
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    Okay. My contribution;s in...I entitled the chapter 'House of Cards' and tried to draw some rough parallels between the magavirus that Obsidian planted in MI6 and his brainwashing procedure for Bond.

    I also introduced Mr. Lim as the mysterious client behind the Indian Nuke affair - to replace the bland 'terrorist' angle that I originally came up with. I hate to make a change that requires someone to modify their contribution, but if everyone prefers the Chinese angle than Sly Fox will have to make some revisions to his last entry. My apologies, Sly!

    Anyway...My thought was that if Obsidian's mind-control process convinced Bond that he was working against MI6, then their efforts to bring him in due to the Lissa/Jari incident will only exacerbate that in his mind.
  • Willie GarvinWillie Garvin Posts: 1,412MI6 Agent
    A wonderful entry,Daren--expertly done!
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    Thanks, WG! BTW, I realized as I was writing the last few paragraphs that considering MI6's computer woes, they would most likely set up camp at another facility such as they did in TWINE - but it wouldn't necessarily be in Scotland. All things considered, though, a lot of the story thus far has taken place in London and MI6, so it wouldn't do any harm for a change of scene IMO.
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    Ok I'm not around much tomorrow as I've got some really big stuff going on at work -but I do hope to get my bit in either late tomorrow night or early Tuesday which is more likely as it is my day off.

    I'm taking into account what you've said Daren so I'll see if I can incorporate such a move of locale. :)

    TTFN.

    Jase
  • The Sly FoxThe Sly Fox USAPosts: 467MI6 Agent
    edited September 2007
    Well, first of all, I want to say "kudos" to WG for some excellent edits to your last entry, sorry I couldn't say so before. :) The only thing I'm wondering about is Obsidian's 'keyword' for Bond. Since he is already brainwashed with drugs, does he really need a keyword at all? I could see it fitting in better with the hypnosis plot device, but now it seems somewhat out of place, IMHO. But in any case, what does the chosen keyword mean? :D By the way, I very much appreciate your kind words, WG!

    DAWUSS, your entry may have been short, but it was written quite well and set us up for a lot of great things to happen. Also, I like the "M's granddaughter's email" line--it's so true! :D

    Daren, your last entry was marvelous! We were due for another action scene, methinks. I do have one suggestion: do you think it needs more dialogue in between the "one minute remaining" and the "three, two, one..." line? Maybe it's just my perfectionist nature, but it really didn't feel like a minute passed between those two lines... :) Really, I loved the scene--it was very suspenseful, lots of thriller action going on there, lots of tech things, all great stuff! :D
  • Willie GarvinWillie Garvin Posts: 1,412MI6 Agent
    edited September 2007
    You're quite welcome,Sly.And thanks for the kind words.

    As for having a keyword--yes,I think 007 does need one.Bond's now under Obsidian's control-- but doing something that completely contradicts his very nature probably requires something-some kind of controling signal- that'll trigger him into action.This might add another level of suspense to the story.

    As for Durendal?Max Obsidian is a swordsman (among other things) and Durendal is the name of one of the most famous swords in the world.It's the name of the sword carried by Roland--the noble warrior who was the good right hand of Charlemagne.


    Not that you asked,but here are few more explanations--and these directly pertain to those aliases of 007 which Obsidian critiques:

    David Somerset is the name James Bond uses in Ian Fleming's novel From Russia With Love.

    St.John Smythe(St.John pronounced Sin-Jin),comes from one of Roger Moore's Bond films and probably originated with screenwriter Richard Maibaum.

    James Boldman is the alias John Gardner gave 007 in several of his books.

    Mark Hazard is the alias Jim Lawrence gave 007 in the James Bond comic strip.

    John Buchan is the name of the author of the classic spy thrillers The 39 Steps,Greenmantle and The Three Hostages(among others).Buchan's hero,British secret agent Richard Hannay,was an important influence on Ian Fleming when he created 007.(I actually gave Bond this alias in novel #5, Shadows of the Past)

    H.C.MacNeile--(who wrote under the penname 'Sapper')was the creator of Captain Hugh "Bulldog" Drummond,another character that served as a rough template for James Bond.Fleming acknowledged this in various interviews.


    And as for Dawuss's latest entry-I too,think it's very nicely done.
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters

    Daren, your last entry was marvelous! We were due for another action scene, methinks. I do have one suggestion: do you think it needs more dialogue in between the "one minute remaining" and the "three, two, one..." line? Maybe it's just my perfectionist nature, but it really didn't feel like a minute passed between those two lines... :)

    Good point, Sly. I will revise and pad it out a little bit to make the timing a bit more consistent. That's exactly the kind of thing a reader catches but the writer misses ;%
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    Ok My bit is in. I'm not sure yet whether I'm happy with it or not. I have written it so that 007 thinks he is still working for MI6 and that Obsidian who he doesn't recognize is the new M. I've also reintroduced Zimbardo with his thoughts on Obsidian's state of mind -there is nothing really new added from his perception but does attempt to reinforce Obsidian's actions.

    I see Bond setting off on his mission soon -but before that happens I think there needs to be a brief encounter between Zimbardo and 007 before he sets off on the meeting -and that Zimbardo recognises in 007 an opportunity to help stop what Obsidian is upto. Then later that day Zimbardo bravely escapes from his room and find's 007's room and uses hypnotism to sort of reinstate 007's mind -and then 007 uses Operation Black Pearl to his advantage and under the pretense of still being brainwashed sets off on the mission -and then uses this time to let the real MI6 know what is happening so a contingency plan can be made.

    Anyway let me know if you think of these ideas.
    :)
  • deliciousdelicious SydneyPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    Sorry guys but I have to withdraw from the writing team due to other commitments. I wish you well with the rest of the novel. Thanks for letting me participate - it's been fun.
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    delicious wrote:
    Sorry guys but I have to withdraw from the writing team due to other commitments. I wish you well with the rest of the novel. Thanks for letting me participate - it's been fun.

    Sorry to hear you are bowing out -but thanks for your contribution thus far and helping this tale along its way. If you find you can contribute more -just let us know.
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    delicious wrote:
    Sorry guys but I have to withdraw from the writing team due to other commitments. I wish you well with the rest of the novel. Thanks for letting me participate - it's been fun.

    I hope things don't crowd your schedule too much, delicious. It will be good to see you be able to continue contributing.

    Nice work on your entry, SC!...Obsidian passing himself off as M seems like a totally believable act of hubris on his part!
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    darenhat wrote:

    Nice work on your entry, SC!...Obsidian passing himself off as M seems like a totally believable act of hubris on his part!

    Thanks Daren -thought it would be an interesting way to go. :)


    BTW how about starting to consider titles
    I was thinking of something like : The Obsidian Masquerade
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    The Osidian Masquerade is the best so far, but what if we were to drop the 'The' in favor of the more enigmatic 'Obsidian Masquerade'?

    Since the story deals with both Obsidian's different images of himself, and in a sense, a darker reflection of Bond as a brainwashed agent, I was kicking around some 'mirror' themes and came up with 'Through the Killing Glass' and 'In a Glass Deadly'...though anything with killing or death seems overused anymore IMO.
  • The Sly FoxThe Sly Fox USAPosts: 467MI6 Agent
    edited September 2007
    Scaramanga, I like your latest entry. It gives Obsidian some more depth as we find out more about his true mental state. I really like the title Obsidian Masquerade, it's definitely the best so far. Although for me it evokes images of a costume party of some kind, and there really hasn't been any party in this story at all. Of course, that's probably just me. :)

    Also, I do agree that the words "death" and "kill" have been way overused by everybody and everything at this point. Although I'm sure there are many great titles we could come up with by using those words, it would probably still sound a bit cheesy and predictable, something this story has managed to stay away from quite nicely. :)

    Interestingly, unlike many Bond Villains, there hasn't been any situation where Obsidian shows himself in some sort of ballroom gala or something, a place where he's the center of attention. He's actually kept to himself for most of the story, enigmatically working behind the scenes. It's an new twist on the old egomaniac idea. An attention starved narcissist that wants to influence everything, yet rarely (if ever) shows his face.

    By the way, thanks for the explanations WG! I was a bit unfamiliar with a couple of those names. :)
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    Dropping The "The" and making it Obsidian Masquerade is definitely better - I do think that using Masquerade in the title points to hidden movements and the disguising of many of the characters actions -the use of disguise is quite an important theme in this tale and a lot of the characters are playing certain roles -after all a Spy often masquerades as someone else to achieve his objectives -and Master Villains don't always reveal their objectives straight away. Obviously I'm biased about calling it Obsidian Masquerade as I came up with it -but it does capture the plot in those two words - Obsidian also alludes to a certain darkness in my mind which is obviously "mirrored" by Max Obsidian's Terrorist/Gangster lifestyle.


    Anyway the decision is up to you guys - However for those that are interested in creating the cover (you know who you are) thoughts will have to turn to that soon. :)
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    edited September 2007
    Obisidian Masquerade has my vote! Good one, SC1! {[]


    BTW: With delicious stepping out of the project, and Golrush away on holiday...should Sly Fox step in, or should we 'rearrange' the writing order?
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    I think it may be a good idea for Sly to step in providing he's happy to do so. Do we know when Golrush is back from vacation?
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    Golrush said he would be gone for three weeks, and that was on just over a week ago.
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    Ok over to you Sly! ;)
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