All I can add here is that generally what Returningson says is correct with regard to the vast majority of movie props. In this instance the chips or tokens are made by Cartimundi and are available cheaply anywhere, not guaranteed to be screen used and any paperwork saying so should only be taken at face value unless from an unimpeachable source BUT in the case of the casino plaques or jetons, Returningson doesn't know squat. You may know props but you don't know casino instruments. These are made by B et G and are as hard to fake as real currency. You only have to hold one in your hand to know they are genuine and given that B et G were contracted to produce these plaques, they would be treated, security wise, just like currency. Once in the producers hands on set these plaques would as Pete says be rigorously accounted for and there were signs all over Pinewood during the production, aimed at the crew and extras, that any removal of any props would be regarded as theft. Obviously things can still slip out as the ones in question probably did. One things for sure, no-ones going to be able to fabricate good enough fakes to be able to justify the cost and I'm talking Plaques not chips, otherwise casinos would be going bust all over the world.
Quite happy to be corrected by Kan here, but don't presume, especially on this board, that you know best, a lot of us know our stuff.
no, not really. Everything has to have solid pedigree and actual, physical provenance. There are people who buy based on "inner knowledge" and I have first hand experience dealing with screen used items (I had in my possesion a certain stars leather motorcycle jacket that appeared in a flick) and getting solid authentication is hard but without it you can only go so far. Not knockin' the authenticity of the items (probably real just saying that is all comes down to your evidence and so far everything Ive seen is circumstantial at best. Otherwise you can never truly know. And the guy's feedback doesnt help his case at all)
You obviously don't know much about props provenance is usually word of mouth in theses cases, do you really think they would supply evidence as to how they acquired the item ) in collecting you should learn to know what you are looking at and someone with Kans knowledge owns far more items than a leather jacket -{
I actually don't own any jacket props, only dresses ;%
ps. I got a certificate and production picture in this case
may I add, that the only legitimate people for James Bond props are EON.
So, unless you have an EON issued certificate, everything else leaves you with a quantum of doubt. And Eon only gives out certificates in context with their charity auctions which don't happen very often.So, let's put that documentation thing to where it belongs.
And more importantly the official COAs are very colourful. They look like the've been done on a Spirograph (TM) by a half talented 5 year old....nice! )
If y'all can please clear up this other plaque mystery, it looked like the eBay auction was incomplete...? The first Cartamundi photo shows three plaques, 10,000 HKD red to match the 100 HKD red token, purple 50,000 and 500 purple chip, black 100,000 and 1000 token (and no 500,000 yellow plaque to match the 5,000 jeton) but in Cartamundi's clapboard photo, a color filter is applied and the purple and black chips and plaques appear almost red and pink in color... does anyone have a good screen shot of the Floating Dragon cashier's plaques to prove whether there were three or more different plaque types? Thanks!
Still on the subject of eBay, have asked this before but had no takers yet. Does anyone have any knowledge of the seller UKREENACTORS2003. As I've said before he has a hell of a lot of Bond documentation.......what are our thoughts on this guy.........Pinewood Arts Department worker.....ex Eon man selling off stuff he had been keeping over the years ? Would be interested to hear your thoughts.
I think people here are pissed at me because Im speaking the truth and I think most people WANT these to be real, especially if I was the one who was gonna pay thousands of dollars for them.
Its funny because people say that im "generally" right and without documentation, it leaves a "quantum of doubt" yet I also get blasted saying I dont know squat and collect dresses. Totally unpprofessional and very uncourteous and I think its simply an emotional attack because someone is telling you what you do not want to hear.
Filmjacket collecting is in the same arena as prop collecting. Screen accurate costumes have the same issues with provence and authenticity as your props so if you want to blast it, go log on over at filmjackets snd see what happens.
My greatest piece was a hero leather jacket worn in a blockbuster movie. It made Over 1 billion (yep one of those). I bought it and talked with the guy who got it on set. He was listed as part of the production of imdb. It had all the specific hallmarks of being used, I had experts who also worked on the film chime in and state it was authentic. But because of legalities with the production company, I could not provide any documentation. Therefore I could only sell it for what it was. A leather jacket. Even though every knew what it truly was. The chips or any prop faces the same dilemma.
Asking for documentation is NOT A LAZY retort. The person who fails to provide it is lazy. he person who thinks they dont need is is an idiot. And when I mean documentation I dont mean a typed piece of paper. I mean paperwork with contacts, serial numbers, seals, dates, signatures and a paper trail that shows where this prop originated from. Exactly like the kind given out by Eon from what I read. If you dont got that, you've got something that might be real but if so, how are you going to prove it? You can collect this stuff and try to pass it off as legitimate in various little circles but in the real big world, you need something more than just what you know.
I think people here are pissed at me because Im speaking the truth and I think most people WANT these to be real, especially if I was the one who was gonna pay thousands of dollars for them.
Its funny because people say that im "generally" right and without documentation, it leaves a "quantum of doubt" yet I also get blasted saying I dont know squat and collect dresses. Totally unpprofessional and very uncourteous and I think its simply an emotional attack because someone is telling you what you do not want to hear.
Filmjacket collecting is in the same arena as prop collecting. Screen accurate costumes have the same issues with provence and authenticity as your props so if you want to blast it, go log on over at filmjackets snd see what happens.
My greatest piece was a hero leather jacket worn in a blockbuster movie. It made Over 1 billion (yep one of those). I bought it and talked with the guy who got it on set. He was listed as part of the production of imdb. It had all the specific hallmarks of being used, I had experts who also worked on the film chime in and state it was authentic. But because of legalities with the production company, I could not provide any documentation. Therefore I could only sell it for what it was. A leather jacket. Even though every knew what it truly was. The chips or any prop faces the same dilemma.
Asking for documentation is NOT A LAZY retort. The person who fails to provide it is lazy. he person who thinks they dont need is is an idiot. And when I mean documentation I dont mean a typed piece of paper. I mean paperwork with contacts, serial numbers, seals, dates, signatures and a paper trail that shows where this prop originated from. Exactly like the kind given out by Eon from what I read. If you dont got that, you've got something that might be real but if so, how are you going to prove it? You can collect this stuff and try to pass it off as legitimate in various little circles but in the real big world, you need something more than just what you know.
That just about sums up your knowledge, stupid boy 8-)
I stand by every word I said WRT to the plaques and chips, you just can't accept that you are not the all seeing oracle on all things related to props, I learn things on a daily basis and I'm grateful to the many learned friends on this forum for expanding my knowledge. I accept with good grace when I am wrong and contribute when I feel qualified to. There are people on this forum that have the best and most complete Bond collections in the world, a lot of which is original and screen used ... FACT. So next time someone say that you're wrong don't spit your dummy like a petulent child, accept what they are saying and try to expand your knowledge. :x
BTW Texas007 is an authorty when it comes to casino plaques and my other collecting hobby is Las Vegas $1 chips of which I have over 800 just from the Las Vegas valley dating back to the late 40s, so yes we know our subject.
Did I say I was an oracle? No. I merely state the obvious. Thats great these people have the best collections in the world but when you narrow your focus down to a particular item (which were are doing) one has to objectively remove themselves from it and look at it with all the evidence presented. And, like Ive stated so many times before, isnt much. I really dont have that much of an interest in plaques but I know a thing or two about props. And to just accept what people are saying? I am more than happy to listen to "expert testimony" and it does lend credence, definitely. But that only goes so far. Objectively remove yourself from it guys. Like a court case or a art detective trying to prove a piece is real.
Returningson, I feel you are right to be dubious without documentation, especially when it comes to what may have been screen used. I also agree with others--you can still have a lovely provenance and story (or horror story) without documentation. I bought something once I was unsure of for a few dollars and the stamped package came mailed from Pinewood, England and I felt much better.
Another time, my group was chatting with a Bond actress, who told us how she attended a convention once, saw someone selling her autographed stills, and said, "I know my signature and it hasn't changed for many years. The signed stills you have are clearly forgeries." The reply from the dealer, "I don't care! I'm still selling these today."
Having said that, the plaques that were on eBay were R-E-A-L.
I refer you back to the look and feel of B et G casino plaques, not worth the effort to try and duplicate, obvious as soon as you and touch them if they are genuine. Do you need a certificate to know that a Picasso is real? No, not if you are very knowledgable in that field. I don't just accept what people say, but I know the background to the genuine chips and know that you wouldn't be able to get away with passing off duds. What you may think is obvious does not apply across the board and for that you need knowledge and experience, something that you 'may' have in the world of general props but that doesn't hold up when you get into specialisations like we are here. Oh and while we're at it you say expert testimony lends credence, where do you think genuine 'certificates of authenticity come from ..... possibly the testimony of experts. Bottom line is that the seller could easily be a sheister, and his story changed by the day and has now admitted that it was him in the Tux, but given what he was selling he was just trying to protect himself whilst trying to sell, as my learned friend danjaq_off pointed out, stolen goods. Genuine but stolen none the less.
some dealers dont have a conscious some dont. Thats true in many venues. I also agree provence does come in many forms but in the end it always has to be substantial enough to convince an outside third party. I dont know how Eon protective is of this stuff. If I had tried to sell my leather jacket as what it truly was I would have had a cease and decisst order from a certain production company's legal department and i really didnt want that lol.
Asking for documentation is NOT A LAZY retort. The person who fails to provide it is lazy. he person who thinks they dont need is is an idiot.
I never said that asking for documentation is a lazy retort, I was saying that depending 100% on documentation is lazy. All dealers/auctioneers/collectors should do their own research. Become an expert before you splash the cash. Never depend wholly on paperwork as in many cases it quite literally is worth only the paper it's printed on. As I said before, I have countless examples of dealers/auction houses declining unquestionably good items solely because they lacked documentation...and then offering for sale obvious fakes because they had documentation. Learn what you sell or collect inside out. Gather evidence for or against and go with your gut, knowledge and experience. As for the chips under discussion here I know nothing about them and offer no personal opinion for or against.
it all comes down to what you are willing to accept as good provenance. Most of the time there is a general consensus as to whats good and bad but there is variance. Its a combination, like I said, of legit paperwork and a papertrail that proves or traces the ownership and origins of the props. And I agree you have to know what you collect but when you try to sell it to an outside party you have to give them something more than your word. Some are willing to accept that. Most wont and they are most of the time right to do so. May not be fair but thats how it is.
Again you show ignorance of subject that many here are so well versed in, EON are probably one of the most, if not the most, protective company WRT trade marks, props and generally anything directly Bond related. They do not think twice about issuing C&D orders and believe me the signs at Pinewood were genuine, they would have prosecuted. EON came to realise several years ago the value of their used props, I was present at the last three major Bond auctions at Christies and the prices make your eyes water. Especially when you realise that in quite a few cases EON are bidding on the telephone to buy back some of their props they believed lost.
I dont have a paper trail for any of the items I own, and I know I wouldn't have a problem selling them if I wanted to, in most of these cases it is not what you know, but who you know, that is how it is.
you see, most of the guys on here are experts in this field, they pay attention to detail on everything, so I trust their judgment.
I wasn't in the bidding for these chips, they are well out of my league and if they had been left until the end of the auction they could have reached £3k, that is going by the CR plaques and them being worth £1k + each .
All of that being said, the guy might not have even had a set just like GM pointed out.
Like many have already said, paperwork is nice, but really means nothing.
Again you show ignorance of subject that many here are so well versed in, EON are probably one of the most, if not the most, protective company WRT trade marks, props and generally anything directly Bond related. They do not think twice about issuing C&D orders and believe me the signs at Pinewood were genuine, they would have prosecuted. EON came to realise several years ago the value of their used props, I was present at the last three major Bond auctions at Christies and the prices make your eyes water. Especially when you realise that in quite a few cases EON are bidding on the telephone to buy back some of their props they believed lost.
Nice people, though, not as protective as New Line Cinema or Lucasfilm! Another issue touches Sony/MGM itself. Their attorneys there like to make billable hours for themselves. Some more Skyfall plaques will turn up eventually/someday... most went back to Eon but Cartamundi gave some to other people...
You said it! The very few CR plaques seem to circulate ever so slowly... and like Bond books I've followed--although it's easier to tell on books because you'll have a pencil mark or some other marking so you know it's the *same* book... it seems like the CR plaques keep going to new owners and people are paying more like $3k per CR plaque these days! The Christie's bidding was still even more phenomenal in price - it worked out to about $2K per plaque after all the fluff was gone like the furniture but that are a lot of plaques in that auction!
You said it! The very few CR plaques seem to circulate ever so slowly... and like Bond books I've followed--although it's easier to tell on books because you'll have a pencil mark or some other marking so you know it's the *same* book... it seems like the CR plaques keep going to new owners and people are paying more like £3k per CR plaque these days! The Christie's bidding was still even more phenomenal in price!
Comments
that is correct GM -{
I actually don't own any jacket props, only dresses ;%
ps. I got a certificate and production picture in this case
And more importantly the official COAs are very colourful. They look like the've been done on a Spirograph (TM) by a half talented 5 year old....nice!
Okay talented 7 year old with Photoshop (TM)
Yeah, 2 for 3 at Iceland & that's why Megs goe to Iceland
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/James-Bond-Skyfall-Authentic-FLOATING-DRAGON-CASINO-gambling-chips-FULL-SET-/151007697181?pt=UK_DVD_Film_TV_Film_Memorabilia_LE&hash=item2328c2991d
Swatch groups watches ???
www.007jamesbond.dk
http://thedangermen.com/
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
www.justgiving.com/inMemoryOfLewisCollins
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
Its funny because people say that im "generally" right and without documentation, it leaves a "quantum of doubt" yet I also get blasted saying I dont know squat and collect dresses. Totally unpprofessional and very uncourteous and I think its simply an emotional attack because someone is telling you what you do not want to hear.
Filmjacket collecting is in the same arena as prop collecting. Screen accurate costumes have the same issues with provence and authenticity as your props so if you want to blast it, go log on over at filmjackets snd see what happens.
My greatest piece was a hero leather jacket worn in a blockbuster movie. It made Over 1 billion (yep one of those). I bought it and talked with the guy who got it on set. He was listed as part of the production of imdb. It had all the specific hallmarks of being used, I had experts who also worked on the film chime in and state it was authentic. But because of legalities with the production company, I could not provide any documentation. Therefore I could only sell it for what it was. A leather jacket. Even though every knew what it truly was. The chips or any prop faces the same dilemma.
Asking for documentation is NOT A LAZY retort. The person who fails to provide it is lazy. he person who thinks they dont need is is an idiot. And when I mean documentation I dont mean a typed piece of paper. I mean paperwork with contacts, serial numbers, seals, dates, signatures and a paper trail that shows where this prop originated from. Exactly like the kind given out by Eon from what I read. If you dont got that, you've got something that might be real but if so, how are you going to prove it? You can collect this stuff and try to pass it off as legitimate in various little circles but in the real big world, you need something more than just what you know.
That just about sums up your knowledge, stupid boy 8-)
BTW Texas007 is an authorty when it comes to casino plaques and my other collecting hobby is Las Vegas $1 chips of which I have over 800 just from the Las Vegas valley dating back to the late 40s, so yes we know our subject.
www.justgiving.com/inMemoryOfLewisCollins
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
For your information, i wouldnt have wasted my time on bidding on them, again, shows how much you know.
But they were real
Another time, my group was chatting with a Bond actress, who told us how she attended a convention once, saw someone selling her autographed stills, and said, "I know my signature and it hasn't changed for many years. The signed stills you have are clearly forgeries." The reply from the dealer, "I don't care! I'm still selling these today."
Having said that, the plaques that were on eBay were R-E-A-L.
www.justgiving.com/inMemoryOfLewisCollins
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
I never said that asking for documentation is a lazy retort, I was saying that depending 100% on documentation is lazy. All dealers/auctioneers/collectors should do their own research. Become an expert before you splash the cash. Never depend wholly on paperwork as in many cases it quite literally is worth only the paper it's printed on. As I said before, I have countless examples of dealers/auction houses declining unquestionably good items solely because they lacked documentation...and then offering for sale obvious fakes because they had documentation. Learn what you sell or collect inside out. Gather evidence for or against and go with your gut, knowledge and experience. As for the chips under discussion here I know nothing about them and offer no personal opinion for or against.
www.justgiving.com/inMemoryOfLewisCollins
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
I wasn't in the bidding for these chips, they are well out of my league and if they had been left until the end of the auction they could have reached £3k, that is going by the CR plaques and them being worth £1k + each .
All of that being said, the guy might not have even had a set just like GM pointed out.
Like many have already said, paperwork is nice, but really means nothing.