The sad demise of a sex slave

13

Comments

  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Bondtoys wrote:
    Well, Dalton would have bursted out in tears, so Craigs reaction is acceptable to me ;)

    Leave Timmy alone! (using the Britney Spears crazed fan voice)
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    With Bondtoys dislike of Dalton and now Craig, Maybe he simply can't judge actors.? :p :))
    Or try sitting a little further away from that big TV screen. :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,416Chief of Staff
    With Bondtoys dislike of Dalton and now Craig, Maybe he simply can't judge actors.? :p :))
    Or try sitting a little further away from that big TV screen. :D

    Or facing it :p
    YNWA 97
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    :v never said that Craig was a bad actor.
    Not sure about Dalton's action skills, (please don't emphasize on Shakespeare, I know!) but he's an uncool personality and his performance as Bond was pathetic imo. I was just waiting that he stomped with his feet of angor and hit his fists on the asphalt :D like a bitchy teenager :))
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,238MI6 Agent
    He did sort of play to the gallery.

    Craig isn't a great actor imo but the dialogue was better tailored to him this time round, mostly.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent

    Leave Timmy alone! (using the Britney Spears crazed fan voice)

    Don't worry!
    Timmiboy is all yours -{
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Bondtoys wrote:

    Leave Timmy alone! (using the Britney Spears crazed fan voice)

    Don't worry!
    Timmiboy is all yours -{

    Don't be so sure about that, Toys! There are many Timmy fans out there! :D
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • zaphodzaphod Posts: 1,183MI6 Agent
    Bondtoys wrote:

    Leave Timmy alone! (using the Britney Spears crazed fan voice)

    Don't worry!
    Timmiboy is all yours -{

    Don't be so sure about that, Toys! There are many Timmy fans out there! :D
    what he said
  • zaphodzaphod Posts: 1,183MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:
    Bondtoys wrote:
    But a glance of a remorse in Bond's face when she's been shot would have been good

    There is....watch the scene again....and look at it through YOUR eyes...not Dalton's 'misty eyes' :D

    I agree. Craig's acting is pretty subtle sometimes, but I definitely detected his remorse when I saw that scene. That's why I disagree with those who are bothered by the fact that Bond had no reaction to Severine's assassination other than the quip about the scotch - he did!

    you must give me the name of your Oculist
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    zaphod wrote:
    Sir Miles wrote:

    There is....watch the scene again....and look at it through YOUR eyes...not Dalton's 'misty eyes' :D

    I agree. Craig's acting is pretty subtle sometimes, but I definitely detected his remorse when I saw that scene. That's why I disagree with those who are bothered by the fact that Bond had no reaction to Severine's assassination other than the quip about the scotch - he did!

    you must give me the name of your Oculist

    Sure - as soon as he's done with a couple of patients having trouble seeing the subtle, but effective acting of one Daniel Craig! :007)
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • Gala BrandGala Brand Posts: 1,172MI6 Agent
    edited August 2013
    He did sort of play to the gallery.

    Craig isn't a great actor imo but the dialogue was better tailored to him this time round, mostly.


    Craig's a very good actor within a very narrow range. Fortunately, the current iteration of Bond is right in the middle of that range.

    You wouldn't want him in a comedy, romantic/comedy, romance, spoof, or anything where he's not being completely serious.
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,238MI6 Agent
    True, but imo it makes it harder to shrug off the implausibilities of the last three films, I'd rather they were watertight in terms of plot holes, on a par with Layer Cake in terms of credibility only with a slight spin.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • zaphodzaphod Posts: 1,183MI6 Agent
    True, but imo it makes it harder to shrug off the implausibilities of the last three films, I'd rather they were watertight in terms of plot holes, on a par with Layer Cake in terms of credibility only with a slight spin.

    Really I blame myself, for not being a sophisticated enough viewer to discern and appreciate all the subtlety and nuance in some parts of Daniel's performance. I will try harder in future as it's just not good enough. Maybe it's like very high frequencies and you have to be a Dog to hear it, or possess beyond human powers? Whatever it is I'm clearly just not 'nailing it' :007)
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    zaphod wrote:
    True, but imo it makes it harder to shrug off the implausibilities of the last three films, I'd rather they were watertight in terms of plot holes, on a par with Layer Cake in terms of credibility only with a slight spin.

    Really I blame myself, for not being a sophisticated enough viewer to discern and appreciate all the subtlety and nuance in some parts of Daniel's performance. I will try harder in future as it's just not good enough. Maybe it's like very high frequencies and you have to be a Dog to hear it, or possess beyond human powers? Whatever it is I'm clearly just not 'nailing it' :007)

    Don't worry, dear boy. Keep trying - you'll get it! :))
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • zaphodzaphod Posts: 1,183MI6 Agent
    zaphod wrote:
    True, but imo it makes it harder to shrug off the implausibilities of the last three films, I'd rather they were watertight in terms of plot holes, on a par with Layer Cake in terms of credibility only with a slight spin.

    Really I blame myself, for not being a sophisticated enough viewer to discern and appreciate all the subtlety and nuance in some parts of Daniel's performance. I will try harder in future as it's just not good enough. Maybe it's like very high frequencies and you have to be a Dog to hear it, or possess beyond human powers? Whatever it is I'm clearly just not 'nailing it' :007)

    Don't worry, dear boy. Keep trying - you'll get it! :))


    Thankyou. That is really encouraging.I just worry that my determination and resolve will give out before my ability kicks in. Perhaps I could try some Daniel appreciation classes for the hard of understanding? What worries me is as Daniel develops into the character and finally becomes Bond what new heights of hitherto unprecedented subtlety will he achieve? If he keeps getting evermore nuanced to the point that he is beyond the script and operating on some Meta level of arcane acting I will keep falling behind the curve, please this is a genuine worry, send professional help ! :007)
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    zaphod wrote:
    zaphod wrote:

    Really I blame myself, for not being a sophisticated enough viewer to discern and appreciate all the subtlety and nuance in some parts of Daniel's performance. I will try harder in future as it's just not good enough. Maybe it's like very high frequencies and you have to be a Dog to hear it, or possess beyond human powers? Whatever it is I'm clearly just not 'nailing it' :007)

    Don't worry, dear boy. Keep trying - you'll get it! :))


    Thankyou. That is really encouraging.I just worry that my determination and resolve will give out before my ability kicks in. Perhaps I could try some Daniel appreciation classes for the hard of understanding? What worries me is as Daniel develops into the character and finally becomes Bond what new heights of hitherto unprecedented subtlety will he achieve? If he keeps getting evermore nuanced to the point that he is beyond the script and operating on some Meta level of arcane acting I will keep falling behind the curve, please this is a genuine worry, send professional help ! :007)

    ".....he keeps getting evermore nuanced to the point that he is beyond the script and operating on some Meta level of arcane acting."

    I anxiously await the day! :D
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • CmdrAtticusCmdrAtticus United StatesPosts: 1,102MI6 Agent
    I've posted my thoughts on this scene in another topic, but just would like to throw in another in case some members might have missed it.

    I don't believe Severine was some kept, innocent whore born from the sex trade. She may have been immorally forced into it as a child, but at one point in her life I think she evolved from that into a shady, duplicitous immoral character herself, whether it was from becoming a drug addict (or a former one) or just being totally immersed in the sex slave/drug/weapons/gambling universe. She was a beautiful woman to be sure, but as Bond noticed, it masked her true nature. She was involved in a cold blooded murder (the target was probably some evil, immoral person himself) and as we saw, didn't react the way an innocent would. She was as cold as Bond was. From this and her conversation with Bond and the fact she wore a concealed weapon, I viewed her more as on the same level as a Miss Taro/Pussy Galore/Octopussy. I think many assumed she was more like Andrea Anders in MWTGG. In that case, of course her death would be really tragic. However, if she is - as I believe she was - more like those other women, then Bond's behavior towards her seems reasonable. It would make her a professional criminal, and as such would mean she is living outside accepted moral laws. Since Bond knows this, then he is going to treat her on that level, so his actions (using her to get to Silva/having sex with her, etc.) is justified. That is not
    to say he does not feel sorry that she chose that life, or that he doesn't believe that if he can get Silva he can get her away from him. It just means he's dealing with her on the same level she would deal with anyone like him. When she asks him if he could kill Silva, I didn't buy into the idea it's because she was an innocent sex prisoner who wanted to escape his clutches. I believed it was so she could be free to continue to pursue her own immoral lifestyle. As far as we know, she could have murdered people in her past (either by using toxins or luring them to a situation where others did them in). Viewed in this light, her demise at Silva's hands seems less tragic, doesn't it? Granted, we are not given enough of her bio to know if this is all true and more info on that may have ended up being edited out, but I still believe her to be a professional criminal.

    Many dislike how cold blooded her death was, even if she were a criminal. I understand that. However, I believe the writers were trying to go out of their way to show just how crazy and evil and cold blooded Silva was. He didn't have his henchmen do it - he did it himself and right in front of Bond. It was meant to intimidate Bond and show him how powerless he was in that moment. That Bond did not try to save her was their way of showing how calculating a professional he was as a 00. He may have not believed Silva was going to do it, but was planning on how to take out the goons as soon as he understood the situation. Attempting an attack with the goons AND Silva holding loaded weapons were bad odds. Once Silva emptied his pistol, Bond had one less weapon to worry about and with her death (as horrible as that was) left him only to have to focus on the bodyguards. The throwaway line about the Scotch was only meant to give Silva and his men the impression that Bond was still at their mercy and was trying to be flippant to put them off guard. It's easier to make a surprise attack on opponents when they believe they are in total control. It's another reason Bond did not use his dueling pistol to attack with. Having armed him, the guards and Silva were on extra alert in case he would try this. Once he fired it, they no longer believed he was a threat. I see cold logic in this. As far as I'm concerned, her death was unavoidable in this situation. Of course, they could have written it so Silva DID miss her and then Bond attacks and saves her (and I personally would have preferred that), but, the deed's been done.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,061MI6 Agent
    I've posted my thoughts on this scene in another topic, but just would like to throw in another in case some members might have missed it.
    Thank you sir, that was marvellous. I'll definitely buy that for a dollar! You essentially fixed the movie for me. -{
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    I've posted my thoughts on this scene in another topic, but just would like to throw in another in case some members might have missed it.

    I don't believe Severine was some kept, innocent whore born from the sex trade. She may have been immorally forced into it as a child, but at one point in her life I think she evolved from that into a shady, duplicitous immoral character herself, whether it was from becoming a drug addict (or a former one) or just being totally immersed in the sex slave/drug/weapons/gambling universe. She was a beautiful woman to be sure, but as Bond noticed, it masked her true nature. She was involved in a cold blooded murder (the target was probably some evil, immoral person himself) and as we saw, didn't react the way an innocent would. She was as cold as Bond was. From this and her conversation with Bond and the fact she wore a concealed weapon, I viewed her more as on the same level as a Miss Taro/Pussy Galore/Octopussy. I think many assumed she was more like Andrea Anders in MWTGG. In that case, of course her death would be really tragic. However, if she is - as I believe she was - more like those other women, then Bond's behavior towards her seems reasonable. It would make her a professional criminal, and as such would mean she is living outside accepted moral laws. Since Bond knows this, then he is going to treat her on that level, so his actions (using her to get to Silva/having sex with her, etc.) is justified. That is not
    to say he does not feel sorry that she chose that life, or that he doesn't believe that if he can get Silva he can get her away from him. It just means he's dealing with her on the same level she would deal with anyone like him. When she asks him if he could kill Silva, I didn't buy into the idea it's because she was an innocent sex prisoner who wanted to escape his clutches. I believed it was so she could be free to continue to pursue her own immoral lifestyle. As far as we know, she could have murdered people in her past (either by using toxins or luring them to a situation where others did them in). Viewed in this light, her demise at Silva's hands seems less tragic, doesn't it? Granted, we are not given enough of her bio to know if this is all true and more info on that may have ended up being edited out, but I still believe her to be a professional criminal.

    Many dislike how cold blooded her death was, even if she were a criminal. I understand that. However, I believe the writers were trying to go out of their way to show just how crazy and evil and cold blooded Silva was. He didn't have his henchmen do it - he did it himself and right in front of Bond. It was meant to intimidate Bond and show him how powerless he was in that moment. That Bond did not try to save her was their way of showing how calculating a professional he was as a 00. He may have not believed Silva was going to do it, but was planning on how to take out the goons as soon as he understood the situation. Attempting an attack with the goons AND Silva holding loaded weapons were bad odds. Once Silva emptied his pistol, Bond had one less weapon to worry about and with her death (as horrible as that was) left him only to have to focus on the bodyguards. The throwaway line about the Scotch was only meant to give Silva and his men the impression that Bond was still at their mercy and was trying to be flippant to put them off guard. It's easier to make a surprise attack on opponents when they believe they are in total control. It's another reason Bond did not use his dueling pistol to attack with. Having armed him, the guards and Silva were on extra alert in case he would try this. Once he fired it, they no longer believed he was a threat. I see cold logic in this. As far as I'm concerned, her death was unavoidable in this situation. Of course, they could have written it so Silva DID miss her and then Bond attacks and saves her (and I personally would have preferred that), but, the deed's been done.

    Sounds perfectly reasonable to me! -{
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    +1 works for me. :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Colonel ShatnerColonel Shatner Chavtastic Bristol, BritainPosts: 574MI6 Agent
    If you think Severine was badly treated by Bond (who was held under gunpoint) I don't think she was quite as callously mistreated as Andrea Anders (who was slapped about violently by Bond then got killed when trying to retrieve the plot McGuffin for Bond).
    'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...'
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,061MI6 Agent
    If you think Severine was badly treated by Bond (who was held under gunpoint) I don't think she was quite as callously mistreated as Andrea Anders (who was slapped about violently by Bond then got killed when trying to retrieve the plot McGuffin for Bond).
    It's a violent business, the spy game. :#
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Bondtoys wrote:
    I've watched the scene now twice. The heavier breathing before he mentions the waste of scotch could be interpreted as a remorse, but I don't agree.
    I don't see anything in his face
    I just watched the scene again on youtube. His face remains impassive but then relaxes slightly when he starts shaking his head and saying the bit about Scotch. I didn't see or hear anything in his voice that suggests remorse for Severine so much as (barely) the loss of the Scotch.
  • zaphodzaphod Posts: 1,183MI6 Agent
    Gassy Man wrote:
    Bondtoys wrote:
    I've watched the scene now twice. The heavier breathing before he mentions the waste of scotch could be interpreted as a remorse, but I don't agree.
    I don't see anything in his face
    I just watched the scene again on youtube. His face remains impassive but then relaxes slightly when he starts shaking his head and saying the bit about Scotch. I didn't see or hear anything in his voice that suggests remorse for Severine so much as (barely) the loss of the Scotch.


    like me you are failing to appreciate the myriad and unparalleled subtleties of his performance. Perhaps we should attend night school until we attain the required standard and atone for past misdeeds :007) Just in case the ' Danielsisagodbestbondever' contingent think this is a dig at him it is not. For me the scene is problematic. As others have noted we don't know what is on the cutting room floor that might improve it. That however is besides the point. We can only judge on what we see in the released version, and with EON being so miserly with unseen and extra footage we'll probably never know.
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    zaphod wrote:
    Gassy Man wrote:
    Bondtoys wrote:
    I've watched the scene now twice. The heavier breathing before he mentions the waste of scotch could be interpreted as a remorse, but I don't agree.
    I don't see anything in his face
    I just watched the scene again on youtube. His face remains impassive but then relaxes slightly when he starts shaking his head and saying the bit about Scotch. I didn't see or hear anything in his voice that suggests remorse for Severine so much as (barely) the loss of the Scotch.


    like me you are failing to appreciate the myriad and unparalleled subtleties of his performance. Perhaps we should attend night school until we attain the required standard and atone for past misdeeds :007) Just in case the ' Danielsisagodbestbondever' contingent think this is a dig at him it is not. For me the scene is problematic. As others have noted we don't know what is on the cutting room floor that might improve it. That however is besides the point. We can only judge on what we see in the released version, and with EON being so miserly with unseen and extra footage we'll probably never know.
    Haha, I'm a fan of Craig's Bond, but I thought he delivered this line in the movie wrong. The fact that the "cavalry" arrive moments later -- meaning she might have lived if things had been stalled a bit more -- makes the scene particularly tragic . . . with the exception of the delivery of that line, which to me made Bond seem truly cold and indifferent to her death. It dehumanized Bond further rather than made him the flawed hero.
  • Gala BrandGala Brand Posts: 1,172MI6 Agent
    Gassy Man wrote:
    zaphod wrote:
    Gassy Man wrote:
    I just watched the scene again on youtube. His face remains impassive but then relaxes slightly when he starts shaking his head and saying the bit about Scotch. I didn't see or hear anything in his voice that suggests remorse for Severine so much as (barely) the loss of the Scotch.


    like me you are failing to appreciate the myriad and unparalleled subtleties of his performance. Perhaps we should attend night school until we attain the required standard and atone for past misdeeds :007) Just in case the ' Danielsisagodbestbondever' contingent think this is a dig at him it is not. For me the scene is problematic. As others have noted we don't know what is on the cutting room floor that might improve it. That however is besides the point. We can only judge on what we see in the released version, and with EON being so miserly with unseen and extra footage we'll probably never know.
    Haha, I'm a fan of Craig's Bond, but I thought he delivered this line in the movie wrong. The fact that the "cavalry" arrive moments later -- meaning she might have lived if things had been stalled a bit more -- makes the scene particularly tragic . . . with the exception of the delivery of that line, which to me made Bond seem truly cold and indifferent to her death. It dehumanized Bond further rather than made him the flawed hero.


    There is no line reading that would make that line not seem cold-hearted. It's a simply cold-hearted line.

    Something like, "Is that supposed to impress me?" might have been better.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,061MI6 Agent
    My problem also is that he couldn't shoot well due to the DT's, yet he delivered the line crisp & simple as if in complete control of himself. It just didn't seem right...
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Bond was acting as a "burnt out " agent at that point, fooling Silva. :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,061MI6 Agent
    Bond was acting as a "burnt out " agent at that point
    The line, its reading by Craig and indeed the whole scene can be and is interpreted in many ways. I take some quantum of solace in the belief that Severine was not quite the poor slave she portrayed herself as.
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,416Chief of Staff
    chrisisall wrote:
    My problem also is that he couldn't shoot well due to the DT's, yet he delivered the line crisp & simple as if in complete control of himself. It just didn't seem right...

    I don't think the line is delivered as you say...but its pointless, for me, to keep going round in circles about it...I know what the scene is about...I understand what the scene is about...I'm happy...
    YNWA 97
Sign In or Register to comment.