Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,697MI6 Agent
    Just my guess but, ...........

    I took it to mean the thug getting eaten by the dragon was part of the circle
    Of life. Things are born and get killed by other animals. :D
    I thought it was a very funny ( yet cold ) line. :))

    "Eat or be eaten !"
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,604MI6 Agent
    Just my guess but, ...........

    I took it to mean the thug getting eaten by the dragon was part of the circle
    Of life. Things are born and get killed by other animals. :D
    I thought it was a very funny ( yet cold ) line. :))

    "Eat or be eaten !"

    Exactly! I got a good chuckle out of that one, and I thought Craig's delivery was just right.
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • David SchofieldDavid Schofield EnglandPosts: 1,528MI6 Agent
    But Kimodo Dragons are vegetarians. So, in this case, not the natural circle of life. A mutated one.

    Still not convinced that's what the "joke" meant; I prefer my Bond lines subtle, but not where I'm asking for explanation 18 months and multiple viewings later. No better than the Brosnan funnies: "hey, we've just done a LALD homage. Dan now needs to say something really stupid"
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,697MI6 Agent
    Are you sure about them eating veggies ? I thought they killed cattle
    Or animals of that size. By a bite as their mouths are full of bacteria
    The animal slowly dies and they simply follow it until it falls down.
    So yes they wouldn't of killed as in the movie but from watching a
    Few documentaries on them they can be unpredictable and very
    Vicious. :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    Yes, one Bite and your ******
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • Thunderbird 2Thunderbird 2 East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,718MI6 Agent
    Personally I thought the "Circle of Life" line was more in reference to the money, as he had just told Penny (money - Penny ha ha I, - oh please yourselves!) to put it all on red.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimodo_dragon - paragraph 3. "Komodo dragons hunt and ambush prey including invertebrates, birds, and mammals." and "The diet of big Komodo dragons mainly consists of deer, though they also eat considerable amounts of carrion. Komodo dragons also occasionally attack humans in the area of West Manggarai Regency where they live in Indonesia."

    I remember reading about them in Douglas Admas "Last Chance to See" in my late teens. Great book. I actually thought "Uh oh" when I saw the Dragons sneak up on Silva's heavy and Bond.
    This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    Nasty little Buggers -{
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,697MI6 Agent
    Am I the only one thinking an Eon spin off. Teenage ninja mutant dragons ! :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    'Pizza Man! Alright!'
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,685MI6 Agent
    delicious wrote:
    Gassy Man wrote:
    delicious wrote:

    Irony usually means that the opposite is true/meant of what is being said - e.g. Lenny and Carls's stupidly liking Bond because he doesn't use gadgets etc shows that only people who are like Lenny and Carl (e.g. stupid) like the new Bond - it's a satirical observation about the fact that Bond is no longer Bond. Im not calling anyone stupid BTW but the Simpsons is, as it has always done. e.g. Homer's appalling parenting is aimed at all the bad fathers out there. Satire is a form of comedy which tells us how not to act - e.g. don't be like Carl and Lenny.
    There's all sorts of irony -- verbal irony, situatiol irony, dramatic irony, etc. The fact that they are idiots and being taken seriously could be the satire.

    From www.dictionary.com:

    Irony

    i·ro·ny
    1 [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]

    noun, plural i·ro·nies.
    1) the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

    2) Literature:
    a) a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
    b) (especially in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., especially as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.


    The essence of all irony is the notion of an actual meaning being opposite to a literal one. Carl and Lenny are classic satirical fools - they are constantly liking and supporting things that are foolish or stupid. They are almost Shakespearean and wonderful to watch. When a fool speaks an opinion in a satire the message to the audience is "don't agree with this". I for one never take Carl and Lenny seriously because their opinions are generally foolish. Other characters who take them seriously are fools too. Because satire has an ironic sub-text, the audience is constantly focused on the sub-text that is the opposite to the literal text. When Carl and Lenny say they like the new Bond the sub-text is "only a fool would like the new Bond". Of course we may or may not agree with the Simpsons satirical assessment of the new Bond and this is part of the divisive nature of satire - it makes fun of things that some people may like (and who are therefore offended) and others dislike (and who thus support the satire). We see this in political satire all the time. Finally, the sub-text is actually a single voice - the voice of the satire itself which speaks through multiple characters and situations.

    BTW the early episode of the Simpsons which features Bond (Bond is called Mr Bont and the villain is Scorpio) is very affectionate toward the franchise and while it makes fun of Bont by having Homer tackle him so that he then gets killed (the ultimate irony for Bond who can never die), it is not satirising Bond as a character/franchise the way Carl and Lenny are doing so about Skyfall.
    You basically rehash my point when you say "their opinions are generally foolish." The satire, again, could be read that agreeing with their opinions that Bond is ugly, etc., is the gag. The problem with defining the Simpsons characters consistently as that they often change to serve the joke.

    They've actually lampooned Bond a number of times, including when Bart melts a Connery-eque action figure in a microwave while stroking the family when an Itchy and Scratchy cartoon parodies Goldfinger, etc
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,685MI6 Agent
    Gala Brand wrote:
    delicious wrote:
    Gassy Man wrote:
    And yet if they are ironic characters, what they are saying is not to be taken literally, either.

    Irony usually means that the opposite is true/meant of what is being said - e.g. Lenny and Carls's stupidly liking Bond because he doesn't use gadgets etc shows that only people who are like Lenny and Carl (e.g. stupid) like the new Bond - it's a satirical observation about the fact that Bond is no longer Bond. Im not calling anyone stupid BTW but the Simpsons is, as it has always done. e.g. Homer's appalling parenting is aimed at all the bad fathers out there. Satire is a form of comedy which tells us how not to act - e.g. don't be like Carl and Lenny.


    No, the irony is that Lenny and Carl like Craig's Bond for the wrong reasons. Instead of appreciating the complex plot lines, witty dialogue, extraordinary acting, excellent cinematography and lighting and creative use of mise-en-scene, they like Craig's Bond films for stupid reasons. It's like Lenny saying, I like Jackson Pollack because I can paint just like him. The irony being that, of course, he can't.

    The fact that you didn't pick up on this is . . . ironic.
    Or that they are portrayed as two idiots, yet there would be people in the audience who would agree with exactly what they are saying. In this, the writers may be using the dialogue ironically to satirize those that grouse about the current Bond films but fervently watch them anyway.
  • David SchofieldDavid Schofield EnglandPosts: 1,528MI6 Agent
    Personally I thought the "Circle of Life" line was more in reference to the money, as he had just told Penny (money - Penny ha ha I, - oh please yourselves!) to put it all on red.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimodo_dragon - paragraph 3. "Komodo dragons hunt and ambush prey including invertebrates, birds, and mammals." and "The diet of big Komodo dragons mainly consists of deer, though they also eat considerable amounts of carrion. Komodo dragons also occasionally attack humans in the area of West Manggarai Regency where they live in Indonesia."

    I remember reading about them in Douglas Admas "Last Chance to See" in my late teens. Great book. I actually thought "Uh oh" when I saw the Dragons sneak up on Silva's heavy and Bond.

    Stand corrected on the dragons' diet.

    Still unconvinced about the meaning of the line
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,314Chief of Staff
    Stand corrected on the dragons' diet.

    Still unconvinced about the meaning of the line

    I agree with the others about the line..."eat or be eaten"....its the way I understood it....
    YNWA 97
  • Thunderbird 2Thunderbird 2 East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,718MI6 Agent
    Apologies - I should have said "I originally thought it meant" in reference to the circle of life.

    I agree, it makes more sense in the eat or be eaten context. Especially with the moans of pain and the screaming! Later on Silva is talking about his Grans rat problem. Seems endangered species right through to vermin all have their uses.

    (Turns to Floating Dragon waiter) I'l start with the Piranha Soup please, followed by the shark platter and rice. - Anyone else eating?
    This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,685MI6 Agent
    Wasn't the whole space a circle? I thought Bond was just supposed to be making a pun based on that. Nothing deeper. This sort of bland, vague writing is one of the reasons I am underwhelmed by Logan.
  • David SchofieldDavid Schofield EnglandPosts: 1,528MI6 Agent
    A clever writer, having just had a scene pastiching LALD, would have had Bond quip: "He disagreed with something that ate him"

    Now I know that was written down in LTK, but I doubt many would remember it. And, hell, use it as a double homage to LTK too!
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,685MI6 Agent
    A clever writer, having just had a scene pastiching LALD, would have had Bond quip: "He disagreed with something that ate him"

    Now I know that was written down in LTK, but I doubt many would remember it. And, hell, use it as a double homage to LTK too!
    I would have been happier with that!

    If that's too light for a Craig movie, maybe some middle ground, like "St. George he is not" or even "Good help is so hard to find" or "Let him chew on that for a while." I'm not saying any of these lines are particularly good, but they make more sense than "Circle of life."

    It occurs to me, too, that there may have been a line cut from the film that would have made the "joke" make more sense. There are lots of circles in that scene, from Bond and Moneypenny wandering around in circles, to the gambling chips, to the dragon pit, and so forth. Maybe Logan had managed to dredge up something more interesting but it got edited out.
  • Gala BrandGala Brand Posts: 1,147MI6 Agent
    delicious wrote:
    Gala Brand wrote:
    delicious wrote:

    Irony usually means that the opposite is true/meant of what is being said - e.g. Lenny and Carls's stupidly liking Bond because he doesn't use gadgets etc shows that only people who are like Lenny and Carl (e.g. stupid) like the new Bond - it's a satirical observation about the fact that Bond is no longer Bond. Im not calling anyone stupid BTW but the Simpsons is, as it has always done. e.g. Homer's appalling parenting is aimed at all the bad fathers out there. Satire is a form of comedy which tells us how not to act - e.g. don't be like Carl and Lenny.


    No, the irony is that Lenny and Carl like Craig's Bond for the wrong reasons. Instead of appreciating the complex plot lines, witty dialogue, extraordinary acting, excellent cinematography and lighting and creative use of mise-en-scene, they like Craig's Bond films for stupid reasons. It's like Lenny saying, I like Jackson Pollack because I can paint just like him. The irony being that, of course, he can't.

    The fact that you didn't pick up on this is . . . ironic.

    I refer you to Occam's Razor in this instance but nice try.

    Occam's Razor doesn't apply to humor, almost by definition.
  • deliciousdelicious SydneyPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    Gala Brand wrote:
    delicious wrote:
    Gala Brand wrote:


    No, the irony is that Lenny and Carl like Craig's Bond for the wrong reasons. Instead of appreciating the complex plot lines, witty dialogue, extraordinary acting, excellent cinematography and lighting and creative use of mise-en-scene, they like Craig's Bond films for stupid reasons. It's like Lenny saying, I like Jackson Pollack because I can paint just like him. The irony being that, of course, he can't.

    The fact that you didn't pick up on this is . . . ironic.

    I refer you to Occam's Razor in this instance but nice try.

    Occam's Razor doesn't apply to humor, almost by definition.

    Im not applying it to the humour Im applying it to your interpretation which is overly complex.
  • Virgil37Virgil37 Posts: 1,188MI6 Agent
    "The most overrated film of all time" definitely not.

    However, it had been built up so much that I expected more. I liked it, but I expected a new CR or even more (which neither SF nor QoS were). Still, SF is a good movie, and clearly superior to any Bond movie but CR in the last 25 years.

    IMO,in any case Craig will go down in history with just those three movies (even QoS is superior to any Brosnan) as the best Bond since Connery.
  • AdamOmegaAdamOmega Edmonton, AB, CanadaPosts: 297MI6 Agent
    Virgil37 wrote:
    IMO,in any case Craig will go down in history with just those three movies (even QoS is superior to any Brosnan) as the best Bond since Connery.

    Even superior to GoldenEye? I couldn't disagree with you more.
    "The secret agent. The man who was only a silhouette..." -- Ian Fleming, Moonraker

    1) The Spy Who Loved Me 2) On Her Majesty's Secret Service 3) GoldenEye 4) Casino Royale 5) Goldfinger
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 31,516Chief of Staff
    AdamOmega wrote:
    Virgil37 wrote:
    IMO,in any case Craig will go down in history with just those three movies (even QoS is superior to any Brosnan) as the best Bond since Connery.

    Even superior to GoldenEye? I couldn't disagree with you more.

    +1
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,314Chief of Staff
    AdamOmega wrote:
    Virgil37 wrote:
    IMO,in any case Craig will go down in history with just those three movies (even QoS is superior to any Brosnan) as the best Bond since Connery.

    Even superior to GoldenEye? I couldn't disagree with you more.

    QoS is FAR superior to Goldenye....Goldeneye actually gets quite boring towards the end...
    YNWA 97
  • PeppermillPeppermill DelftPosts: 2,852MI6 Agent
    GoldenEye is also higher on my list than QoS. To each his own I guess.
    1. Ohmss 2. Frwl 3. Op 4. Tswlm 5. Tld 6. Ge 7. Yolt 8. Lald 9. Cr 10. Ltk 11. Dn 12. Gf 13. Qos 14. Mr 15. Tmwtgg 16. Fyeo 17. Twine 18. Sf 19. Tb 20 Tnd 21. Spectre 22 Daf 23. Avtak 24. Dad
  • Virgil37Virgil37 Posts: 1,188MI6 Agent
    AdamOmega wrote:
    Virgil37 wrote:
    IMO,in any case Craig will go down in history with just those three movies (even QoS is superior to any Brosnan) as the best Bond since Connery.

    Even superior to GoldenEye? I couldn't disagree with you more.

    IMO, yes. QoS is superior to GE. But I'm biased, Brosnan is my least favourite Bond, and Craig is second only to Connery.
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,604MI6 Agent
    Virgil37 wrote:
    "The most overrated film of all time" definitely not.

    However, it had been built up so much that I expected more. I liked it, but I expected a new CR or even more (which neither SF nor QoS were). Still, SF is a good movie, and clearly superior to any Bond movie but CR in the last 25 years.

    IMO,in any case Craig will go down in history with just those three movies (even QoS is superior to any Brosnan) as the best Bond since Connery.

    I couldn't agree more.
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • JagJag Posts: 1,166MI6 Agent
    Actually, I happened to catch a bit of Die Another Day on TV recently, and although it was not my favourite movie when it was released, I just realised how much better Brosnan's Bond is than Craig's.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 31,516Chief of Staff
    Jag wrote:
    Actually, I happened to catch a bit of Die Another Day on TV recently, and although it was not my favourite movie when it was released, I just realised how much better Brosnan's Bond is than Craig's.

    +1 (although I had realised this a long time ago... about 8 years ago, I think)
  • SilentSpySilentSpy Private Exotic AreaPosts: 750MI6 Agent
    I would say Skyfall is the most overrated Bond film. I don't know about all time. Too many people think Skyfall and Daniel Craig's Bond in particular is the best. I think it's just a newer is better thing going on. It always happens with the larger audience.
    "Better late than never."
  • AdamOmegaAdamOmega Edmonton, AB, CanadaPosts: 297MI6 Agent
    SilentSpy wrote:
    I would say Skyfall is the most overrated Bond film. I don't know about all time. Too many people think Skyfall and Daniel Craig's Bond in particular is the best. I think it's just a newer is better thing going on. It always happens with the larger audience.

    IMO Skyfall is largely catered to audiences still reeling in the aftermath of The Dark Knight. It's new, slick, grounded, and certainly "well-made", but is it better? Beneath all the gloss, I think Skyfall is an intellectually dishonest film and Bond films should stick to being popcorn escapism. But that's just me.
    "The secret agent. The man who was only a silhouette..." -- Ian Fleming, Moonraker

    1) The Spy Who Loved Me 2) On Her Majesty's Secret Service 3) GoldenEye 4) Casino Royale 5) Goldfinger
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