I find it amusing that Glock, Beretta, Springfield, and Sig still put hooked trigger guards on guns. Shooting with the weak hand over the trigger guard went out in the 1970's.
I find it amusing that Glock, Beretta, Springfield, and Sig still put hooked trigger guards on guns. Shooting with the weak hand over the trigger guard went out in the 1970's.
Some 70's icons continued this into the 80's though
It was either that.....or the priesthood
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,485MI6 Agent
Weaver stance has more to do with push/pull than the way one grips the gun. When I'm shooting matches or practicing I use a modified isosceles stance. Same with a carbine. Keep everything the same. But, when the sh*t goes down you're not going to be standing in any disciplined stance anyway.
Best advise I always give is do whats comfortable, as long as you have an aggressive posture and shoot safe.
Weaver stance has more to do with push/pull than the way one grips the gun. When I'm shooting matches or practicing I use a modified isosceles stance. Same with a carbine. Keep everything the same. But, when the sh*t goes down you're not going to be standing in any disciplined stance anyway.
It's become my naturally assumed stance, I grip with my right hand, the supporting hand placed under the wrist and palm with elbow downward. The sideways stance presents less target area to any return fire. After many many hours adopting this stance reflex just puts me in it, though as you say when your getting shot at finding cover also becomes pertinent )
Weaver stance has more to do with push/pull than the way one grips the gun. When I'm shooting matches or practicing I use a modified isosceles stance. Same with a carbine. Keep everything the same. But, when the sh*t goes down you're not going to be standing in any disciplined stance anyway.
It's become my naturally assumed stance, I grip with my right hand, the supporting hand placed under the wrist and palm with elbow downward. The sideways stance presents less target area to any return fire. After many many hours adopting this stance reflex just puts me in it, though as you say when your getting shot at finding cover also becomes pertinent )
i snagged this off the web since I can't grip a gun and take a pic at same time. )
That is how we were taught and how we taught others. Thumbs at target. 60-70% of your grip is with the weak hand. The more the wrist is cocked on the weak hand, the faster the guns sight picture returns to target. This is basically what every school and unit I've been training with does.
Weaver stance has more to do with push/pull than the way one grips the gun. When I'm shooting matches or practicing I use a modified isosceles stance. Same with a carbine. Keep everything the same. But, when the sh*t goes down you're not going to be standing in any disciplined stance anyway.
It's become my naturally assumed stance, I grip with my right hand, the supporting hand placed under the wrist and palm with elbow downward. The sideways stance presents less target area to any return fire. After many many hours adopting this stance reflex just puts me in it, though as you say when your getting shot at finding cover also becomes pertinent )
I followed your lead to clarify my post
My grip is similar to the picture below only I have big hands and my left hand sits a tad further back toward my wrist.
I hold mine like I am choking a chicken - releasing the shot and never missed the target or had a mis fire yet! )
Sorry could not resist its Friday after all and I am spending all weekend on the Range doing nothing as fancy as your Pistol gripping!
I will get back in my box now - ignore me and do carry on!
Good one all
Cheers :007)
How were you trained bond44? Isosceles stance for me never felt comfortable, we developed personal variations of the mod Weaver, at batsub most guys had a sideways stance. I'm guessing the standard pistol training in the British military is quite generic.
I've never shot a gun in my life but did hold an old Navy Colt at a Civil War re-enactment many years ago back in the UK. I like those Old West guns there is something special about them.
Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
Chris you know I cannot possible comment in detail - suffice to say yes position and hold is generic and similar to your pic with both thumbs on left side pointing to the target (after all we all pretty much use the same book). Of course SF have more technical options and as you say experience also breeds the same as well. I have seen trials of a sling/ holster for small side arms that guarantees a hit every shot in overt or covert carriage - very impressive! It will never catch on )
As we all know when in contact just pointing it in the right direction is a good start and variations on a theme are dictated by situation, ground and cover!
Cheers :007)
My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
Chris you know I cannot possible comment in detail - suffice to say yes position and hold is generic and similar to your pic with both thumbs on left side pointing to the target (after all we all pretty much use the same book). Of course SF have more technical options and as you say experience also breeds the same as well. I have seen trials of a sling/ holster for small side arms that guarantees a hit every shot in overt or covert carriage - very impressive! It will never catch on )
As we all know when in contact just pointing it in the right direction is a good start and variations on a theme are dictated by situation, ground and cover!
Cheers :007)
Understand osa is not to be taken lightly
Back to the ppk, I always preferred it with the flat shoe magazine, the spur looks better, but with the flat mag I found it concealed better in both shoulder rig and iwb, also when gripping that my third finger sat in front of the lanyard keep my little finger behind it for this negated any chance of slide bite,
No problem, I only highlight direction is important because I was once in a veh move where we had not accounted for driving on the wrong side of the road and car. Meant our right handed only fire weapon had my my oppo holding it pointing at my private parts! We reasoned if we did get a contact the first thing he would do was shoot my nuts off - so I stopped worrying about the bad guys instantly (but thats real trust for you). Needless to say we switched to pistols for Veh moves there after and so started my love for the pistol for initial close contact when in veh! (other than the **** who shot himself through the lower knee sitting on one a bad habit picked up in theatre by some)
Cheers :007)
My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,485MI6 Agent
At one time it was SOP to have your car BHP under your left leg for easy access should you run into a checkpoint or other drama.
No problem, I only highlight direction is important because I was once in a veh move where we had not accounted for driving on the wrong side of the road and car. Meant our right handed only fire weapon had my my oppo holding it pointing at my private parts! We reasoned if we did get a contact the first thing he would do was shoot my nuts off - so I stopped worrying about the bad guys instantly (but thats real trust for you). Needless to say we switched to pistols for Veh moves there after and so started my love for the pistol for initial close contact when in veh! (other than the **** who shot himself through the lower knee sitting on one a bad habit picked up in theatre by some)
Yeah I know and it was a Browning HP - ouch!
Still its a new dawn you get a nice Robocop holster now with tilt, slide and even a gucci safety mechanism to keep it in the holster like the Rozzas (now everyone is like quick draw macgraw). Even comes with a lanyard to boot, well someone had enough of people leaving them on veh bonnets or leaving them behind somewhere bad, cannot blame them. Only problem is you need a PHD to put it together 8-)
I miss the good old days life seems so much simpler then
Cheers :007)
My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,485MI6 Agent
They did mess around with mounting a holster on the side of the car seat or on the door, but it was noticeable during em or debussing, and with the procedure of starting the car with the door open, it would have been on show far too much. So they canned that idea pretty quickly. Only ever saw one ND and that was when she holstered her PPK in the old Paul Evers IWB holster. Some had those big leather extensions on them to shield the rear sights from the body, it was well worn and two ply in that area and it had delaminated over the years and got caught in the triggerguard somehow. Luckily at that point in training, it was only blank rounds. Still created an interesting burn crater in her upper butt though. Immediate RTU.
i snagged this off the web since I can't grip a gun and take a pic at same time. )
That is how we were taught and how we taught others. Thumbs at target. 60-70% of your grip is with the weak hand. The more the wrist is cocked on the weak hand, the faster the guns sight picture returns to target. This is basically what every school and unit I've been training with does.
My P99 was jamming (ejecting shells getting snagged on their way out) and it was stressing me out, until I got a - er, handle on the above grip.
I always assumed, maybe naively, that the PPK was chosen for its elegant conceal-ability. It is a narrow gun, albeit heavier seeming in this age of composites. It seemed like the whole point of the choice was that you could tuck it under a dinner jacket without printing.
The P99, however? I live in the States where a lot of handguns are marketed as concealable, provided you wear baggy-ass jeans or a circus tent shirt.
Meanwhile, Bond's suits have gotten tighter and tighter.
It's used in assault situations normally within a team, it's been around for long time some special forces use it, and to be honest in certain situations bond should use it, it's effective but not any use on a range. It's use in films is increasing, even Denzel Washington adopts it on occasion in the magnificent seven of all films.
Some other members may be able to give you more details than I'm prepared to.
It was either that.....or the priesthood
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,485MI6 Agent
Best confined shooting stance. Very close quarters and tightly confined spaces like houses etc. Also protects the weapon from being grabbed or knocked aside when in close contacts. As Chriscoop says, it's been around for quite a while.
Asp is right, this technique ( as it's more than a shooting stance) is filtering down into law enforcement from special forces. you may notice armed police hold there firearms closer in and higher than they used to, especially when entering and clearing buildings.
All PSNI being trained in this now from HMSU down, Response are also being trained in entry tactics in the possibility/probability of being first on scene of an active shooter situation.
Since this thread has derailed into general firearms and tactics, riddle me this, UK tactical gurus.
During my visit to London I observed the majority of uniformed Met officers unarmed, yet wearing body armor. It stands to reason that if police administrators truly believe that officers could be in the line of fire (again, the body armor) that they would also enable uniformed officers, essentially walking targets, to defend themselves.
I made a similar statement to an officer standing post along a parade route, and she just nodded and smiled in acknowledgement.
Yes, I realize that there are randomly armed officers and specialized armed response teams. That still doesn't answer the question.
Most are armed with taser guns, the body armour is primarily knife protection, it's a stab jacket. the UK and particularly London currently has a rising knife crime problem. Armed response units (sco19) exist in every force across the country, London has a higher level of armed patrols. In airports here you will always find armed police.
Just thought I'd add, we also have a recently formed anti terror police section, as you can see from.the photo, they are pretty well equipped.
Comments
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Best advise I always give is do whats comfortable, as long as you have an aggressive posture and shoot safe.
That is how we were taught and how we taught others. Thumbs at target. 60-70% of your grip is with the weak hand. The more the wrist is cocked on the weak hand, the faster the guns sight picture returns to target. This is basically what every school and unit I've been training with does.
I followed your lead to clarify my post
My grip is similar to the picture below only I have big hands and my left hand sits a tad further back toward my wrist.
Sorry could not resist its Friday after all and I am spending all weekend on the Range doing nothing as fancy as your Pistol gripping!
I will get back in my box now - ignore me and do carry on!
Good one all
Cheers :007)
As we all know when in contact just pointing it in the right direction is a good start and variations on a theme are dictated by situation, ground and cover!
Cheers :007)
Understand osa is not to be taken lightly
Back to the ppk, I always preferred it with the flat shoe magazine, the spur looks better, but with the flat mag I found it concealed better in both shoulder rig and iwb, also when gripping that my third finger sat in front of the lanyard keep my little finger behind it for this negated any chance of slide bite,
Cheers :007)
Otherwise known as a jalopy jam :007)
Still its a new dawn you get a nice Robocop holster now with tilt, slide and even a gucci safety mechanism to keep it in the holster like the Rozzas (now everyone is like quick draw macgraw). Even comes with a lanyard to boot, well someone had enough of people leaving them on veh bonnets or leaving them behind somewhere bad, cannot blame them. Only problem is you need a PHD to put it together 8-)
I miss the good old days life seems so much simpler then
Cheers :007)
My P99 was jamming (ejecting shells getting snagged on their way out) and it was stressing me out, until I got a - er, handle on the above grip.
The P99, however? I live in the States where a lot of handguns are marketed as concealable, provided you wear baggy-ass jeans or a circus tent shirt.
Meanwhile, Bond's suits have gotten tighter and tighter.
Some other members may be able to give you more details than I'm prepared to.
During my visit to London I observed the majority of uniformed Met officers unarmed, yet wearing body armor. It stands to reason that if police administrators truly believe that officers could be in the line of fire (again, the body armor) that they would also enable uniformed officers, essentially walking targets, to defend themselves.
I made a similar statement to an officer standing post along a parade route, and she just nodded and smiled in acknowledgement.
Yes, I realize that there are randomly armed officers and specialized armed response teams. That still doesn't answer the question.
Just thought I'd add, we also have a recently formed anti terror police section, as you can see from.the photo, they are pretty well equipped.