Possibly using 60s Connery footage in a different way

BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 30,814Chief of Staff
Now, I know very little about CGI etc but I do know that it's possible (with varying degrees of success) to de-age an actor or create a CGI version (eg Peter Cushing in "Rogue One") of one.
Would it be feasible, or even possible, to use footage of Sean Connery in "Woman Of Straw" or perhaps "Marnie" and fit it in with CGI to have a young Connery in a new narrative... say, oh I don't know, a James Bond adventure?
I don't remember this coming up here before, but forgive me if it has. What got me thinking about this was seeing stills of Sir Sean in "Woman Of Straw". If one didn't know better, these (and many others) could easily be mistaken for him as 007.


Woman-of-Straw-White-Dinner-Jacket.jpg


woman-of-straw-2.jpg
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Comments

  • SpectreOfDefeatSpectreOfDefeat Posts: 333MI6 Agent
    It's an interesting idea, for sure. The CGI actor-enhancement technology can be made to work well in some cases (see "Star Wars: Rogue One" and, for an earlier example, Oliver Reed's performance in "Gladiator"), but for a Bond film? I'm not so sure. Obviously it would provide a nostalgia thrill for fans to see Sean Connery return in his prime as James Bond, but I can think of a few problems. Firstly, would the performance be authentic? After all, it wouldn't actually be Connery himself giving a complete performance if you think about it, more a series of CGI-ified clips and redubbed audio work. Secondly, there's a risk that the general public and press might see it as simply a distracting gimmick. So I would say that it's an intriguing notion, certainly, but with a lot of practical flaws when you think about the practicalities of using the technology in a modern Bond film.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 17,556MI6 Agent
    It's interesting, but problematic idea. I think it's okay in the examples you mention, finishing a movie when an actor dies during production and a short appearance in the same franchise. But is it acceptable to make a whole new Bond film starring "Sean Connery" when the actor never saw the script or agreed to be in it and has no chance of saying no?
    I fear the technology will at some point be used for something profoundly unethical, such as making a porn starring "Marilyn Monroe". :#
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 30,814Chief of Staff
    I don't mean a CGI Connery, or at least as little as possible. I'm thinking of using the Connery footage from "Woman Of Straw", "Marnie" and possibly "A Fine Madness" and repurposing it. Use outtakes and deleted scenes if any survive. Only use CGI where absolutely necessary, use doubles for rear shots, etc. Blend him in with modern co-stars. Use his voice from these films.
    It would be difficult and pose technical problems, of course. I'm wondering how difficult.
    Rights may be an issue- for one thing, "Marnie" is a Hitchcock film. His family may not be happy. Still, I think it's an interesting theory.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,696MI6 Agent
    There are many examples if " deep fake"
    Videos on YouTube that are amazing.
    I think in a few years it will be perfectly
    Possible to use a long deceased actor
    In a major roll, I think there's a new film
    Coming out soon with James Dean in it.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/james-dean-posthumous-casting-in-new-movie-through-visual-effects-2019-11
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 17,556MI6 Agent
    What you describe is different from deep fakes, Barbel, but many of the ethical problems still apply in my opinion. In Connery's case we also know there was a conflict between EON and Connery, and the actor kept some distance to the character. I know he did the voice for the FRWL computer game, but still.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 30,814Chief of Staff
    These movies were early in his Bond career (except "A Fine Madness"), and relationships hadn't deteriorated too badly, but I see your point.
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 9,027MI6 Agent
    edited December 2020
    Silly idea? Bleeding horrible more like. Puts one in mind of cryogenic freezing.

    That said, it would be interesting to see Connery inserted into OHMSS. Dunno, just a thought.

    Or to make him look better in NSNA but it's still horrible as a film.

    Wasn't there a car ad two decades ago with Connery de-ageing using CGI as it went on? I'll look for it.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 9,027MI6 Agent
    Okay, here it is:

    Connery Car Advert
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 2,196MI6 Agent
    get SickBoy from TrainSpotting to do the voiceover
    or that SNL comedian who did the Jeopardy sketches


    I don't think you need to reuse footage from early movies, the ConneryBond character could be all CGI.
    Maybe should be, as the choice of movements in the vintage footage would be too limiting to cover all needed movements to tell a complete story.
    For example do these early Connery films include anything visually similar to him being tied in a chair and smacked with a carpet beater? if not, still need to create that content from scratch.

    What's really needed is an Andy Serkis type motion actor who can persuasively imitate Connery's distinct manner of movement, and map the CGI Connery to that.


    and yes actually attempting anything like this, especially so close after the real Connery's death, would be in exceptionally poor taste, even if he had remained on good terms with EON.
  • SpectreOfDefeatSpectreOfDefeat Posts: 333MI6 Agent
    edited December 2020
    Was the car advert this one for Citroen, possibly?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kamPVs-a9w

    Another factor in bringing back a CGI de-aged Connery is the fact that other examples of re-using actors' likenesses- particularly Peter Cushing in Star Wars- garnered a fair bit of negative publicity in the press as it was seen to be disrespectful, i. e, in bad taste. For instance articles like this:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/21/peter-cushing-rogue-one-resurrection-cgi
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 2,196MI6 Agent
    Barbel youre a Pink Panther fan.
    Wasn't there a posthumous Peter Sellers film cobbled together in a similar manner?
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 30,814Chief of Staff
    Yes, "Trail Of...". Boy, it stunk. Blake Edwards used unseen outtakes from previous Panther films, cobbled it together with use of doubles where necessary, and still only managed to get half a movie out of it (the rest was a clip show). Hey, maybe my idea wasn't so good after all....
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 2,196MI6 Agent
    there's two angles of discussion,
    1) is it technically possible
    2) is it ethical, or even legal

    I think we're all agreed any actual attempt to do so would be disrespectful to Connery's memory and wishes,
    but the discussion of how it could be done technically is nonetheless rather interesting and I would like to see it explored further, so I say its a good idea for discussion!
    Its not like Babs and Mike are going to see this thread and suddenly be inspired to use leftover Connery footage for Bond26 instead of hiring a new actor, its all theoretical.

    ...

    Did you mean use only existing footage from Connery's early non-Bond films (and maybe some Bond outtakes) to make this theoretical film? no CGI Connery or doubles? would he be bluescreened into new backgrounds with new actors?

    Would it be a Fleming adaptation somehow forced to fit existing footage, or an all-new story that could more easily match existing footage?

    I'm reminded of films like Whats Up Tigerlily, where Woody Allen overdubbed a Japanese movie to tell a completely different story.
    There was also an episode of the Cisco Kid that Martin Short and his friends overdubbed in a similar manner.
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,134Chief of Staff
    Barbel wrote:
    Now, I know very little about CGI etc but I do know that it's possible (with varying degrees of success) to de-age an actor or create a CGI version (eg Peter Cushing in "Rogue One") of one.
    Would it be feasible, or even possible, to use footage of Sean Connery in "Woman Of Straw" or perhaps "Marnie" and fit it in with CGI to have a young Connery in a new narrative... say, oh I don't know, a James Bond adventure?
    I don't remember this coming up here before, but forgive me if it has. What got me thinking about this was seeing stills of Sir Sean in "Woman Of Straw". If one didn't know better, these (and many others) could easily be mistaken for him as 007.


    Woman-of-Straw-White-Dinner-Jacket.jpg


    woman-of-straw-2.jpg

    Or go down the Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid route... :D

    As TP mentions above...Deep Fake would be the way to go...
    YNWA 96
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 30,814Chief of Staff
    Did you mean use only existing footage from Connery's early non-Bond films (and maybe some Bond outtakes) to make this theoretical film? no CGI Connery or doubles? would he be bluescreened into new backgrounds with new actors?

    Yes, that's it although I think there would have to be some use of doubles and (as limited as possible) CGI. Re doubles- Harrison Ford hurt his back during or just before "Temple Of Doom" and Vic Armstrong doubled for him a lot more than he would normally have been expected to do. Not the same thing, since Ford was and is very much alive, but it did put restrictions on what could be shot.
    Would it be a Fleming adaptation somehow forced to fit existing footage, or an all-new story that could more easily match existing footage?

    I don't think a Fleming adaptation would be possible within the limitations, and a new story would have to be written around what is available.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,696MI6 Agent
    I think a lot of stunt work these days, has the actors face CGI on to the stuntman's.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Charmed & DangerousCharmed & Dangerous Posts: 7,045MI6 Agent
    There's something about those deep fakes though. I don't think the technology is quite there yet. They look unreal around the eyes, there's nothing going on behind them. Using unseen or unreleased footage of Connery would be preferable.
    "How was your lamb?" "Skewered. One sympathises."
  • Shady TreeShady Tree London, UKPosts: 2,237MI6 Agent
    edited December 2020
    For all the fan service, I don't think that the resurrection of Cushing in 'Rogue One' was well realised. As much as anything, the actor reading the character's lines failed to nail Cushing's distinctive voice and enunciation.

    I can only imagine that Connery would have had a few choice words to say about any project to re-purpose or CGI him into another Bond flick.

    When an actor is filmed performing a role their consent and intention in respect of their performance is part of an implicit contract with the audience even though - unlike in live theatre - the actor isn't actually present at the time that the audience experiences it. But if some use of an actor's image in a new project has no connection with the actor's intention (because it's a project conceived after the actor's death) then, to me, there's a hollowness in that project and it could never feel the same.
    Critics and material I don't need. I haven't changed my act in 50 years.
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 9,027MI6 Agent
    Actually I had an idea for something like this for Never Say Never Again.. over the credits they could have used clips from Connery's past Bonds. Except they couldn't, wouldn't be allowed, but why not get round it with clips from non-Bond movies exactly as Barbel suggests, like Marnie?
    You could do a good fan film like this, a clip show. Do a trailer for OHMSS with just Connery okay it's probably been done.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • chrisno1chrisno1 LondonPosts: 1,001MI6 Agent
    I can only think how rubbish the sequences with Bruce Lee's stand-in were in Game of Death. Some people's passing should not be interfered with. Fancy technology does not always make a great movie. The remake of King Kong had all the CGI in the world but couldn't recreate the emotional pull of the1933 original. A CGI Connery would have a similar effect, I suggest.
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 9,027MI6 Agent
    Well, someone had a go at Sean Connery in OHMSS It works quite well at times, not so well at others. Enjoy. -{
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 30,814Chief of Staff
    Actually I had an idea for something like this for Never Say Never Again.. over the credits they could have used clips from Connery's past Bonds. Except they couldn't, wouldn't be allowed, but why not get round it with clips from non-Bond movies exactly as Barbel suggests, like Marnie?

    That's a great idea, NP, better than mine- fairly easily done, and would have added to the film. Use these clips with a year subtitled underneath + other clips as appropriate leading up to his then-current appearance. Much like the John Wayne film, "The Shootist" did.
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,522MI6 Agent
    You bring up how people can easily mistake Connery in Woman of Straw for Bond. It happens a lot. So many people post stills of Connery from the film on Instagram and label it as Bond. The same happens with Marnie. Most of his Woman of Straw wardrobe was reused for Goldfinger, except the swim trunks that Sunspel recreated for the Designing 007 exhibit were not worn by Bond. :s

    I think there is technology that could make this work. They’d have to put Connery on different sets. Woman of Straw and Marnie do not visually resemble Bond films, even if Connery looks just like Bond.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 30,814Chief of Staff
    Yes, agreed. Just him, with new sets and costars.
  • CoolHandBondCoolHandBond Mactan IslandPosts: 3,850MI6 Agent
    I’m against using CGI to recreate actors who have passed away, let them rest in peace, they have a huge catalogue of performances to view in movies they made whilst they were alive.

    Am I the only one who wishes for the return to proper miniature work in movies? I enjoy the work of Derek Meddings and John Richardson far more than soulless CGI effects.
    Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
  • Shady TreeShady Tree London, UKPosts: 2,237MI6 Agent
    edited December 2020
    Am I the only one who wishes for the return to proper miniature work in movies? I enjoy the work of Derek Meddings and John Richardson far more than soulless CGI effects.

    Agreed with that. And on a related point, in the genre of monster movies I much prefer the stop-motion animation of, say, the original King Kong to the later CGI iterations. (I'm not so sure, though, about the man-in-a-rubber suit monsters which ran amok through the miniatures during the intervening years... even when John Barry was drafted in to compose a score [for the 1976 Kong]!)
    Critics and material I don't need. I haven't changed my act in 50 years.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,696MI6 Agent
    I too love the traditional methods, but have to say when the money is spent
    on good CGI it is amazing. Unfortunately many films try and save money
    and go for cheap CGI which looks crap !! Many look like they were done
    on Sony Vegas editing software.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • chrisno1chrisno1 LondonPosts: 1,001MI6 Agent
    Well, someone had a go at Sean Connery in OHMSS It works quite well at times, not so well at others. Enjoy. -{
    A nice bit of shodfy editing. Pretty terrible, I thought.
  • Shady TreeShady Tree London, UKPosts: 2,237MI6 Agent
    edited December 2020
    chrisno1 wrote:
    Well, someone had a go at Sean Connery in OHMSS It works quite well at times, not so well at others. Enjoy. -{
    A nice bit of shodfy editing. Pretty terrible, I thought.

    Yes: interesting intention; depressing execution. Both Connery and OHMSS are probably both best left where they were!

    As for CGI, I'd guess DAD left a lot of Bond fans prejudiced against it. But that was well after the likes of 'Terminator 2' had blown off everyone's socks!
    Critics and material I don't need. I haven't changed my act in 50 years.
  • Royale-les-EauxRoyale-les-Eaux LondonPosts: 272MI6 Agent
    Ghost Sean would only have one question for Digital Sean...

    "are they paying you enough money?!" :))
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