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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Gassy Man wrote:
delicious wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

And yet if they are ironic characters, what they are saying is not to be taken literally, either.

Irony usually means that the opposite is true/meant of what is being said - e.g. Lenny and Carls's stupidly liking Bond because he doesn't use gadgets etc shows that only people who are like Lenny and Carl (e.g. stupid) like the new Bond - it's a satirical observation about the fact that Bond is no longer Bond. Im not calling anyone stupid BTW but the Simpsons is, as it has always done. e.g. Homer's appalling parenting is aimed at all the bad fathers out there. Satire is a form of comedy which tells us how not to act - e.g. don't be like Carl and Lenny.

There's all sorts of irony -- verbal irony, situatiol irony, dramatic irony, etc.  The fact that they are idiots and being taken seriously could be the satire.

From www.dictionary.com:

Irony

i·ro·ny
1 [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]

noun, plural i·ro·nies.
1) the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

2) Literature:
a) a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
b) (especially in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., especially as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.


The essence of all irony is the notion of an actual meaning being opposite to a literal one. Carl and Lenny are classic satirical fools - they are constantly liking and supporting things that are foolish or stupid. They are almost Shakespearean and wonderful to watch. When a fool speaks an opinion in a satire the message to the audience is "don't agree with this". I for one never take Carl and Lenny seriously because their opinions are generally foolish. Other characters who take them seriously are fools too. Because satire has an ironic sub-text, the audience is constantly focused on the sub-text that is the opposite to the literal text. When Carl and Lenny say they like the new Bond the sub-text is "only a fool would like the new Bond". Of course we may or may not agree with the Simpsons satirical assessment of the new Bond and this is part of the divisive nature of satire - it makes fun of things that some people may like (and who are therefore offended) and others dislike (and who thus support the satire). We see this in political satire all the time. Finally, the sub-text is actually a single voice - the voice of the satire itself which speaks through multiple characters and situations.

BTW the early episode of the Simpsons which features Bond (Bond is called Mr Bont and the villain is Scorpio) is very affectionate toward the franchise and while it makes fun of Bont by having Homer tackle him so that he then gets killed (the ultimate irony for Bond who can never die), it is not satirising Bond as a character/franchise the way Carl and Lenny are doing so about Skyfall.

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

delicious wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:
delicious wrote:

Yes they are idiots which is why they like the latest james Bond film for those reasons. It's called irony.

And yet if they are ironic characters, what they are saying is not to be taken literally, either.

Irony usually means that the opposite is true/meant of what is being said - e.g. Lenny and Carls's stupidly liking Bond because he doesn't use gadgets etc shows that only people who are like Lenny and Carl (e.g. stupid) like the new Bond - it's a satirical observation about the fact that Bond is no longer Bond. Im not calling anyone stupid BTW but the Simpsons is, as it has always done. e.g. Homer's appalling parenting is aimed at all the bad fathers out there. Satire is a form of comedy which tells us how not to act - e.g. don't be like Carl and Lenny.


No, the irony is that Lenny and Carl like Craig's Bond for the wrong reasons.  Instead of appreciating the complex plot lines, witty dialogue, extraordinary acting, excellent cinematography and lighting and creative use of mise-en-scene, they like Craig's Bond films for stupid reasons.  It's like Lenny saying, I like Jackson Pollack because I can paint just like him.  The irony being that, of course, he can't.

The fact that you didn't pick up on this is . . . ironic.

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

" Irony, It can be pretty damn Ironic !" .....  Topper Harley  ajb007/cheers   ajb007/lol

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

delicious wrote:

If we're going to make Bond into a sad boring loser

You're making my point for me, my friend. Referring to Craig's Bond that way is certainly nothing more than an opinion, and one which I and many others disagree with. And sure, one can point to Q's blunder and other plot elements of Skyfall that seem stupid and not well-thought out, but that doesn't automatically translate into Skyfall being an overall bad movie. Another line from the criticism which you apparently agree with is this one "Daniel Craig seems hardened, waxy, and humourless, with no gift for floating a weak punchline, and the uninspired script (“Got into some deep water”, anyone?) gives him a morass of them". Now that is clearly nothing more than the opinion of the writer and, again, it is one that I don't agree with all. So what makes that opinion any more valid than anyone else's? My point is the notion that this critical view of Skyfall is finally a dose of "realistic" criticism seems to imply that contrary views are somehow unrealistic. I don't see either view as being more realistic than the other. They're just different opinions, that's all.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Gala Brand wrote:
delicious wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

And yet if they are ironic characters, what they are saying is not to be taken literally, either.

Irony usually means that the opposite is true/meant of what is being said - e.g. Lenny and Carls's stupidly liking Bond because he doesn't use gadgets etc shows that only people who are like Lenny and Carl (e.g. stupid) like the new Bond - it's a satirical observation about the fact that Bond is no longer Bond. Im not calling anyone stupid BTW but the Simpsons is, as it has always done. e.g. Homer's appalling parenting is aimed at all the bad fathers out there. Satire is a form of comedy which tells us how not to act - e.g. don't be like Carl and Lenny.


No, the irony is that Lenny and Carl like Craig's Bond for the wrong reasons.  Instead of appreciating the complex plot lines, witty dialogue, extraordinary acting, excellent cinematography and lighting and creative use of mise-en-scene, they like Craig's Bond films for stupid reasons.  It's like Lenny saying, I like Jackson Pollack because I can paint just like him.  The irony being that, of course, he can't.

The fact that you didn't pick up on this is . . . ironic.

I refer you to Occam's Razor in this instance but nice try.

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Blackleiter wrote:
delicious wrote:

If we're going to make Bond into a sad boring loser

You're making my point for me, my friend. Referring to Craig's Bond that way is certainly nothing more than an opinion, and one which I and many others disagree with. And sure, one can point to Q's blunder and other plot elements of Skyfall that seem stupid and not well-thought out, but that doesn't automatically translate into Skyfall being an overall bad movie. Another line from the criticism which you apparently agree with is this one "Daniel Craig seems hardened, waxy, and humourless, with no gift for floating a weak punchline, and the uninspired script (“Got into some deep water”, anyone?) gives him a morass of them". Now that is clearly nothing more than the opinion of the writer and, again, it is one that I don't agree with all. So what makes that opinion any more valid than anyone else's? My point is the notion that this critical view of Skyfall is finally a dose of "realistic" criticism seems to imply that contrary views are somehow unrealistic. I don't see either view as being more realistic than the other. They're just different opinions, that's all.

I'd have to check all the reviews of past Bond films by date to support what I'm about to say but the most objective criticism of films tends to come out after the dust has settled - the reviews that come out straight after release is either crowing with praise or utterly damning and we can never be sure how many of the positive critics are in the pay of the publicity machine which needs sales. Months and years later when money is not such an issue, more balanced views tend to come out and we can be more certain that they are not corrupt.

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

I rather like Craig's utterance of "Got into some deep water." as well as his "I never did like this place." before the big explosion. He's nonchalant which is very much a Connery trait.

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

The deep wqter line bothered me only in the context that it underlined how unbelievable it was he had not died from exposure in the freezing water and cold. - I tripped and fell into Loch Faskally once during the early autumn. So Cold! Not to mention it and I, stank!

   The "I always hated this place," on the other hand was quite fitting. Up to that point I was wondering if Bond felt any sorrow, any at all at the loss of his family home. Clearly not! The comment also echos back to the psychiatrists word association earlier in the film. Bonds loss of his Mum and Dad (and Aunt?) did have an impact on him, but he has not let it stop him from getting on with his life.

I find these two one liners highlight some of the strengths and flaws of the film. However as time passes and I see it more as part of the series, I am frowning on the flaws less, and enjoying it more. Essentially it is about the downfall of a key character, M-Manf and Dame Judi's skillful passing the batton to Ralph Finnes. In that context it is a Bond milestone.

  It is a shame Mr Brosnan was not allowed to bring his sense of humour to 007. Equally though, Mr Craig plays michevious very well, we see it a couple if times in CR-06, and I suppose the pillow talk with Silva and the wink at Mallory before shooting the fire hydrants qualify too. I hope that trait is brought back more in the next one.

By the by, what the hell was Tanner doing when Mallory got shot? It is after this moment he pops up to pulls M behind the desk?

Last edited by Thunderbird 2 (6th May 2014 13:35)

This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Once again I find myself in agreement,  ajb007/cheers   ajb007/lol
One of us must be very clever !  ajb007/biggrin 
I think Tanner was on t'in-ter-net, probably posting something
On AJB.  ajb007/lol

I've grown to love the entire last act of SF, almost a stand alone mini movie.
Love Bond breaking the guy's neck on the run, the funny bits with Kincade,
And his last scene with M, ( bottom lip wobbling, time ) . I'm sure SF has its
Faults, I'm just not looking for them.  ajb007/cheers

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Have absolutely no problem with Craig and his delivery of the "funnies"; he isn't very good at them, no one has ever really written Bond wit well since Dick Maibaum, and it takes a Connery or Moore to drop them out properly anyway. The Bond of the books wasn't a comedian and neither was Tim Dalton, so Craig's okay with me in that dept.       

But can someone explain "it's the circle of life" line to me? Is it a reference to the LION KING?  ajb007/confused  ajb007/lol

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Simba!

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Just my guess but, ...........

I took it to mean the thug getting eaten by the dragon was part of the circle
Of life. Things are born and get killed by other animals.  ajb007/biggrin
I thought it was a very funny ( yet cold ) line. ajb007/lol

"Eat or be eaten !"

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Thunderpussy wrote:

Just my guess but, ...........

I took it to mean the thug getting eaten by the dragon was part of the circle
Of life. Things are born and get killed by other animals.  ajb007/biggrin
I thought it was a very funny ( yet cold ) line. ajb007/lol

"Eat or be eaten !"

Exactly! I got a good chuckle out of that one, and I thought Craig's delivery was just right.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

But Kimodo Dragons are vegetarians. So, in this case, not the natural circle of life. A mutated one.

Still not convinced that's what the "joke" meant; I prefer my Bond lines subtle, but not where I'm asking for explanation 18 months and multiple viewings later. No better than the Brosnan funnies: "hey, we've just done a LALD homage. Dan now needs to say something really stupid"

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Are you sure about them eating veggies ? I thought they killed cattle
Or animals of that size. By a bite as their mouths are full of bacteria
The animal slowly dies and they simply follow it until it falls down.
So yes they wouldn't of killed as in the movie but from watching a
Few documentaries on them they can be unpredictable and very
Vicious.  ajb007/biggrin

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Yes, one Bite and your ******

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Personally I thought the "Circle of Life" line was more in reference to the money, as he had just told Penny  (money - Penny ha ha I, - oh please yourselves!)  to put it all on red.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimodo_dragon  - paragraph 3.   "Komodo dragons hunt and ambush prey including invertebrates, birds, and mammals."  and   "The diet of big Komodo dragons mainly consists of deer, though they also eat considerable amounts of carrion. Komodo dragons also occasionally attack humans in the area of West Manggarai Regency where they live in Indonesia."

  I remember reading about them in Douglas Admas "Last Chance to See" in my late teens. Great book.  I actually thought "Uh oh" when I saw the Dragons sneak up on Silva's heavy and Bond.

This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?

68

Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Nasty little Buggers  ajb007/martini

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Am I the only one thinking an Eon spin off. Teenage ninja mutant dragons !   ajb007/lol

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

'Pizza Man! Alright!'

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

71

Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

delicious wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:
delicious wrote:

Irony usually means that the opposite is true/meant of what is being said - e.g. Lenny and Carls's stupidly liking Bond because he doesn't use gadgets etc shows that only people who are like Lenny and Carl (e.g. stupid) like the new Bond - it's a satirical observation about the fact that Bond is no longer Bond. Im not calling anyone stupid BTW but the Simpsons is, as it has always done. e.g. Homer's appalling parenting is aimed at all the bad fathers out there. Satire is a form of comedy which tells us how not to act - e.g. don't be like Carl and Lenny.

There's all sorts of irony -- verbal irony, situatiol irony, dramatic irony, etc.  The fact that they are idiots and being taken seriously could be the satire.

From www.dictionary.com:

Irony

i·ro·ny
1 [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]

noun, plural i·ro·nies.
1) the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

2) Literature:
a) a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
b) (especially in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., especially as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.


The essence of all irony is the notion of an actual meaning being opposite to a literal one. Carl and Lenny are classic satirical fools - they are constantly liking and supporting things that are foolish or stupid. They are almost Shakespearean and wonderful to watch. When a fool speaks an opinion in a satire the message to the audience is "don't agree with this". I for one never take Carl and Lenny seriously because their opinions are generally foolish. Other characters who take them seriously are fools too. Because satire has an ironic sub-text, the audience is constantly focused on the sub-text that is the opposite to the literal text. When Carl and Lenny say they like the new Bond the sub-text is "only a fool would like the new Bond". Of course we may or may not agree with the Simpsons satirical assessment of the new Bond and this is part of the divisive nature of satire - it makes fun of things that some people may like (and who are therefore offended) and others dislike (and who thus support the satire). We see this in political satire all the time. Finally, the sub-text is actually a single voice - the voice of the satire itself which speaks through multiple characters and situations.

BTW the early episode of the Simpsons which features Bond (Bond is called Mr Bont and the villain is Scorpio) is very affectionate toward the franchise and while it makes fun of Bont by having Homer tackle him so that he then gets killed (the ultimate irony for Bond who can never die), it is not satirising Bond as a character/franchise the way Carl and Lenny are doing so about Skyfall.

You basically rehash my point when you say "their opinions are generally foolish."  The satire, again, could be read that agreeing with their opinions that Bond is ugly, etc., is the gag.  The problem with defining the Simpsons characters consistently as that they often change to serve the joke.

They've actually lampooned Bond a number of times, including when Bart melts a Connery-eque action figure in a microwave while stroking the family when an Itchy and Scratchy cartoon parodies Goldfinger, etc

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Gala Brand wrote:
delicious wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

And yet if they are ironic characters, what they are saying is not to be taken literally, either.

Irony usually means that the opposite is true/meant of what is being said - e.g. Lenny and Carls's stupidly liking Bond because he doesn't use gadgets etc shows that only people who are like Lenny and Carl (e.g. stupid) like the new Bond - it's a satirical observation about the fact that Bond is no longer Bond. Im not calling anyone stupid BTW but the Simpsons is, as it has always done. e.g. Homer's appalling parenting is aimed at all the bad fathers out there. Satire is a form of comedy which tells us how not to act - e.g. don't be like Carl and Lenny.


No, the irony is that Lenny and Carl like Craig's Bond for the wrong reasons.  Instead of appreciating the complex plot lines, witty dialogue, extraordinary acting, excellent cinematography and lighting and creative use of mise-en-scene, they like Craig's Bond films for stupid reasons.  It's like Lenny saying, I like Jackson Pollack because I can paint just like him.  The irony being that, of course, he can't.

The fact that you didn't pick up on this is . . . ironic.

Or that they are portrayed as two idiots, yet there would be people in the audience who would agree with exactly what they are saying.  In this, the writers may be using the dialogue ironically to satirize those that grouse about the current Bond films but fervently watch them anyway.

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Thunderbird 2 wrote:

Personally I thought the "Circle of Life" line was more in reference to the money, as he had just told Penny  (money - Penny ha ha I, - oh please yourselves!)  to put it all on red.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimodo_dragon  - paragraph 3.   "Komodo dragons hunt and ambush prey including invertebrates, birds, and mammals."  and   "The diet of big Komodo dragons mainly consists of deer, though they also eat considerable amounts of carrion. Komodo dragons also occasionally attack humans in the area of West Manggarai Regency where they live in Indonesia."

  I remember reading about them in Douglas Admas "Last Chance to See" in my late teens. Great book.  I actually thought "Uh oh" when I saw the Dragons sneak up on Silva's heavy and Bond.

Stand corrected on the dragons' diet.

Still unconvinced about the meaning of the line

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Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

David Schofield wrote:

Stand corrected on the dragons' diet.

Still unconvinced about the meaning of the line

I agree with the others about the line..."eat or be eaten"....its the way I understood it....

YNWA: Justice For The 96

Sometimes no news is just bad news taking it's fvcking time

75

Re: Skyfall "Most over-rated film of all time"

Apologies - I should have said "I originally thought it meant" in reference to the circle of life. 

I agree, it makes more sense in the eat or be eaten context. Especially with the moans of pain and the screaming!  Later on Silva is talking about his Grans rat problem.  Seems endangered species right through to vermin all have their uses.

(Turns to Floating Dragon waiter) I'l start with the Piranha Soup please, followed by the shark platter and rice. -  Anyone else eating?

This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?