Novel 6 Suggestion & Criticism Thread

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  • Golrush007Golrush007 South AfricaPosts: 3,421Quartermasters
    edited July 2007
    No - not questioning your choice to send Bond back to London - I'll just need to edit one or two things in my previous contribution - no problem. ;)

    And I didn't actually realise that Tanaka was a common name in Japan.
  • deliciousdelicious SydneyPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    I would have had Bond visit Station I in India and meet Q there for analysis of the hard drive. I think that's one of the main purposes of the Stations all around the world. Eg the one in Hong Kong harbour in TMWTGG, inside the pyramids in TSWLM and in the monastery in MR to name but a few. But these are all from the movies, I dont think they exist in the novels (which i know less well).
  • Willie GarvinWillie Garvin Posts: 1,412MI6 Agent
    edited July 2007
    Entry's in, but it's extremely rough.I intend to polish it considerably.Regardless,I sincerely hope that no one will be upset with what I've done.

    As far as I'm concerned,SPECTRE is gone forever,never to return.Ian Fleming's terrorist organization didn't really last beyond two novels(Thunderball and OHMSS),and that's fine with me.Who better,however,to kill Max's family than Blofeld's minions?Seeing that would certainly shock me into amnesia.:)

    I've tried to write(and none too well) the literary Blofeld and Largo,as opposed to EON's versions.The Blofeld of my entry is pretty much Blofeld as he looks in the OHMSS novel.My Bond is an attempt at Fleming's version.He doesn't age much.He's always around 38 years old.

    That coming storm at the conclusion of the entry is my all too melodramatic attempt at foreshadowing Bond's coming to see Max and Adriana.And 007's only visiting to meet them and look around.max and Adriana--but especially Max-- are only a few of many suspects.This doesn't signal the end of the story at all.

    M is a try at Dame Judi, and Q is an attempt at John Cleese writ large.I've referenced Desmond's Q in passing,and also Operation Thunderball--but that too,only in passing.

    Max still doesn't understand his dreams and the repressed memories they represent.He probably won't for some time to come.

    Of course, I can and will change what's written, if need be.No problem.:)

    Anyway,hopefully some of this'll be useful.

    Opinions,please.
  • deliciousdelicious SydneyPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    Adriana doesnt want to remember her past and based on self-interest (and she is a bad guy) she would project that wish onto Max and discourage him from remembering his. She would not be interested in healing him. Recall the way Elektra toyed with Renard's inability to feel - her dialogue alternately torments and seduces him. Max and Adriana's relationship should be based on pain/fear/control/manipulation in some form or other. Maybe he believes that she can heal him but she uses this illusion to manipulate him. Carl Rogers the famous psychologist talks of two kinds of love - Eros and Agape. Eros is possessive/selfish love which is based in self interest. Max and Adriana's love should be like this. Agape is selfless love where the two parties put each other before themselves.

    Bond's relationships have a curious niche of their own - many of his liaisons are simply a means to an end - business before pleasure although the business is very pleasurable. The Agape in his case is Queen and Country but he gets the Eros as a kind of fringe benefit. Complicated!
  • The Sly FoxThe Sly Fox USAPosts: 467MI6 Agent
    delicious wrote:
    I would have had Bond visit Station I in India and meet Q there for analysis of the hard drive. I think that's one of the main purposes of the Stations all around the world. Eg the one in Hong Kong harbour in TMWTGG, inside the pyramids in TSWLM and in the monastery in MR to name but a few. But these are all from the movies, I dont think they exist in the novels (which i know less well).

    Hmm, you could be right. It can be edited in later if you like. All we need to do is remove the hard drive reference from my last entry, insert the Station scene in before my entry, mention a few passing references to Q's examination of it somewhere in my entry and we'll be good. :)

    WG, your entry is great. I agree that Blofeld shouldn't be brought back to life. As you said, his time is done, but his legend lives on. I'm not sure how well it will work, bringing back an old villain for Max's past, but it's certainly an interesting idea.

    We'll have to be careful of plot holes, though. Does it make sense that early on, M didn't know anything about Mister X while Bond was in Finland, yet now we know all about Max Obsidian and his parents' deaths? Does MI6 realize that Mister X and Obsidian are the same person? If not, I can remove the reference to X from my entry. It's not a bad idea, since it would also add to the mystery of X's identity. Either way, we should make it clear whether MI6 knows X's true identity or not.

    Also, does it seem reasonable for Bond to be able to quell his anger so quickly after M just called him a traitor? I'm not sure what it is, but something just seems to be mismatched between my scene and yours (not that it's anyone's fault, of course)... Maybe it's just the differences between writing styles. :) Whatever it is, it's no problem since it can all be ironed out later.

    I'm just trying to make sure all loose ends are tied up. You really gave us a fine entry, by the way--it gives Bond's parents a history that none of us would have ever expected. :)
  • The Sly FoxThe Sly Fox USAPosts: 467MI6 Agent
    edited July 2007
    delicious wrote:
    Adriana doesnt want to remember her past and based on self-interest (and she is a bad guy) she would project that wish onto Max and discourage him from remembering his. She would not be interested in healing him. Recall the way Elektra toyed with Renard's inability to feel - her dialogue alternately torments and seduces him. Max and Adriana's relationship should be based on pain/fear/control/manipulation in some form or other. Maybe he believes that she can heal him but she uses this illusion to manipulate him. Carl Rogers the famous psychologist talks of two kinds of love - Eros and Agape. Eros is possessive/selfish love which is based in self interest. Max and Adriana's love should be like this. Agape is selfless love where the two parties put each other before themselves.

    Bond's relationships have a curious niche of their own - many of his liaisons are simply a means to an end - business before pleasure although the business is very pleasurable. The Agape in his case is Queen and Country but he gets the Eros as a kind of fringe benefit. Complicated!

    Interesting ideas there, delicious. I would like to have a bit more hope in humanity that there are more Agape lovers than Eros ones, but these are the bad guys we're talking about, I suppose...

    It is rather complicated! Perhaps there can be a primary element of Eros love between them, yet deep inside, Adriana holds a bit of selflessness for her lover. Perhaps this can all come out in the end. Maybe we can do something different and have a story of reconciliation--i.e., Cobra and Daya's story, as well as Adriana and Max's story; a story in which Max might not die, but instead ride away into the sunset with his love (kind of like Jaws in Moonraker) while Bond does the same with... Lissa, perhaps? I would personally love to see such a story...

    Your thoughts.
  • Willie GarvinWillie Garvin Posts: 1,412MI6 Agent
    edited July 2007
    I'll try to fix some of the holes tomorrow(it's midnight where I am).Thanks for the input,guys.

    I've made Adriana a little less supportive of Max's quest for answers.She's concerned about his health, but the past really holds little interest for her.It's impossible to completely identify with Max.His situation isn't normal--neither is either of them,I suspect.

    I've also tried to add more dimension to 007's tiff with M over her apparently suggesting he could be a traitor.More apology.These are adults,however,and I think they've known and respected each other enough to know to bury the hatchet and work together for a common interest--ID'ing and defeating the Bad Guys.
  • deliciousdelicious SydneyPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    The Sly wrote:

    It is rather complicated! Perhaps there can be a primary element of Eros love between them, yet deep inside, Adriana holds a bit of selflessness for her lover. Perhaps this can all come out in the end. Maybe we can do something different and have a story of reconciliation--i.e., Cobra and Daya's story, as well as Adriana and Max's story; a story in which Max might not die, but instead ride away into the sunset with his love (kind of like Jaws in Moonraker) while Bond does the same with... Lissa, perhaps? I would personally love to see such a story...

    Your thoughts.

    All of the characters are pretty fuzzy round the edges at the moment. As our story progresses (eg editing) the characters will become more solid and definite. Adriana began as a woman involvd in the international slave trade who disguises herself as Baba Yaga and pursues Lissa relentlessly in a fast car. She has been introduced as a pretty mean lady.

    Some characters stay the same throughout a story and do not change or develop, others do. Those that do have what is called an arc - a starting point and a finishing point and some kind of change that gets them from one to the other.

    Bond does not change or develop much in the stories most of the time. He doesn't need to because he is the hero who knows the most, is good, efficient, well-balanced etc. We like him because he is a kind of male ideal, a man living a life that many men would like to have. I know there is a lot of flak now about the 50s male and its limits etc but what I'm saying is basically true. He is the great action hero and lover rolled into one. Since Ge there has been some attempt to get 'inside' him but its pretty token IMHO.

    In DAD M's arc is to begin by being suspicious of Bond and ending by trusting him. Not much of an arc but better than nothing.

    In TND Paris Carver's arc is to begin as the wife of a mass murdering egomaniac (Carver) and end by dying to help Bond bring him down. A sad arc full of pathos.

    In TWINE Zuchovsky begins as a sly ex-KGB turned businessman and ends giving his life to help Bond to bring down Elektra King to protect Mother Russia etc.

    In TLD Cara begins as the unwitting accomplice of Yorge and ends up being given freedom to play the cello outside the Soviet Union. A more positive arc.

    Character development is pretty limited in the Bond genre generally speaking.

    The abovementioned arcs don't involve psychological realisations or epiphanies. "The plot's the thing", to twist Shakespeare's words.

    The stories are plot driven rather than character driven in most cases. In CR Le Chiffre initiates the plot by attempting to sabotage a new aircraft and his motive is greed which is admittedly an aspect of character. But even so the story really revolves around Bond thwarting his plans. Le Chiffre's greed is really just an excuse to get the ball rolling for another great struggle between the forces of good and evil. And there's nothing wrong with that.

    So to come back to Adriana, is she going to be a bad guy who comes to a bad end, or is she going to be a bad guy who becomes good but pays for her crimes with her life (a common pattern in Bond stories) or is she an indestructible character like Jaws who is really a comic character.

    I would like to know at this point what she wants and why she is with Max. She reminds me of Mayday a bit at the moment. Mayday was in love with Zorin but Zorin was too psychotic to love her back and eventually he betrayed her, she realised what a fool she'd been and died helping Bond.

    The most obvious arc for Max would be to be caught by Bond, recover his memory somehow (perhaps Bond triggers it) and have a violent end.

    Another would be the Blofeld escape into the sequel option.

    I dont feel comfortable with Max recovering his memory and realising the erro of his ways. For this to happen we would need there to be an even greater villain for the climax.

    We cant make Adriana the primary villain because thats been done with TWINE.

    Anyway all of the above is me just thinking out loud...
  • The Sly FoxThe Sly Fox USAPosts: 467MI6 Agent
    edited July 2007
    WG, I like how you've revised your entry. It looks great! :)

    Lots of interesting musings there, delicious. You're probably right that we can't have Obsidian see the error of his ways because... Well, then we wouldn't have a villain to destroy, would we? :D We'd have to create another villain toward the end of the story just for the sake of having one to kill, and I've seen that done all too many times... It looks cheesy and tacked-on, and it damages the credibility of the story.

    I'm not sure how Adriana will turn out, I suppose we'll have to wait and see what happens. One thing I would suggest is that somewhere we need to bring Lissa back into the picture: perhaps a Dalton-esque hostage situation related to slave-trafficking, or maybe just a situation set up to lure Bond into a trap. We could develop her character some more, perhaps showing some dialogue between she and Adriana delving into Lissa and "Baba Yaga"'s past. I would like to see Lissa become one of the more integral characters to the story, as she could still prove to be a very useful (and pleasurable) ally for Bond. She's shown herself as a delicate but tough lady who can handle herself... Maybe we're due for another action scene. :D
  • DAWUSSDAWUSS My homepagePosts: 517MI6 Agent
    Who said we had to kill the villain? ;)
  • deliciousdelicious SydneyPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    DAWUSS wrote:
    Who said we had to kill the villain? ;)

    We dont have to kill him but either he dies or he escapes into a sequel - Im only against him being cured and turning good which is another possibility.

    One thing that could happen is that his psychosis gets augmented by another violent trauma - perhaps he witnesses a violent fire fight and has a flashback. Since Baker has been killed by Cobra perhaps Bakers minions or associates get revenge on Max's people and he witnesses a massacre.

    Just a thought.
  • DAWUSSDAWUSS My homepagePosts: 517MI6 Agent
    My entry'll be up within a day or so, as a heads-up for the rest of ya :)
  • DAWUSSDAWUSS My homepagePosts: 517MI6 Agent
    It's in. Short, but accomplishes the objective of reintroducing Lissa. I was a bit busy and slightly in a hurry, so I simply generated a formulaic Q scene and had Bond slowly wonder about who hacked into his computer.
  • deliciousdelicious SydneyPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    So who's next - darenhat or scaramanaga?
  • The Sly FoxThe Sly Fox USAPosts: 467MI6 Agent
    I talked with Scaramanga and he said for me to go ahead and take Darenhat's place as previously discussed, since he won't be able to contribute until Tuesday, anyway. So I'll be at work on it, should have something in a day or two... Wish me luck! :D

    On to dinner with Lissa... Perhaps I'll have Lissa delve deeper with Bond into her past. I may even have her tell Bond something she knows about Obsidian--something that she was afraid to tell Bond until just now. You know, "Please protect me, James!" and all that. This will lead up to, well, as Thomas Crown so brilliantly put it, "another hit of espresso..." :))
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    Hey guys! I'm back!

    I've only had a brief opportunity to scan the Novel 6 threads, but rest assured I'm going to be dilligently catching up with the story and plot ideas over the next day or so!

    Glad to see everything is proceeding well! :)
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    Ok I,m not sure what to do my time to write is lim ited and Tuesdsay's and Wednesday's are really the only days I get the time to research and write. I thought Sly you were going to add something before today and now daren is back - so what do you guys want me to do? btw I think this story is shaping up really well now so kudos to everyone. ;0)
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    Sly Fox just PMed me. He hasn't had opportunity to start the next contribution, so I'm going to go ahead and write my part and submit it as soon as possible. Sorry for the delay! :)
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    I might not be able to contribute my installment until the following Tuesday or Wednesday by the looks of it -now everything is going out of the proper running order and back again. If we say we are going to make the next contribution we should try and stick to it -and if we are not likely to we should let others know sooner rather than later. The research I painstakingly did today is probably going to be wasted now.
  • deliciousdelicious SydneyPosts: 371MI6 Agent
    Desultory moments in the life of a double-oh

    Moneypenny handed Bond a top secret folder. Bond opened it and scanned the first page. He gaped at what he read and looked petulantly at her.

    "But I'm supposed to be on the 'Earthdoom' assignment. M said so."

    "Sorry James, roster change. 006 is doing 'Earthdoom' and you're doing 'Minordebacle'. You leave for Yorkshire tonight."

    "Yorkshire!"

    "Yes."

    "Who changed the roster?"

    "Personnel of course."

    "*******s! I've a good mind to show them what the business end of a Walther PPK can do!"

    "No weapons allowed in personnel James. Too many OH&S issues. Have fun in Yorkshire."

    Bond tucked the folder under his arm and stalked out of the office grumbling and muttering.
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    edited August 2007
    I think I have something that I'll be able to contribute tonight, which may not interfere with scaramanga1's hard work. I'm going to split the narrative slightly, and basically implicate Sly Fox's character Jack Prowess as another one of Obsidian's moles. This can keep Bond on track for his assignment given to him by M. Hopefully this means SC1 can keep going forward with his ideas and post tomorrow as he planned. :)
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    All
    A storm left me without power for the past 8 hours and has just now come back on. As a result, I was not able to contribute to the novel as soon as I hoped.

    In order to avoid any further delays, I have PMed Scaramanga1 and told him to skip me this round and to take advantage of his opportunity to post his contribution as he intended.

    I apologize for the inconveniences I have caused everyone. The novel is making great progress and I simply do not want to hinder it.

    That being said, I duly pass the baton to SC1 and look forward to contributing again when my slot comes up in the upcoming round.

    :)
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    Cheers guys - I will post my bit later today its all set up -I've just got a few things to do between now and about fourish -then I'll be adding my bit. Looking after the little one has complicated things a bit -but I have it all ready to go soon as I'm able. I'm going to introduce a new psychoanalyst who will unlock a few things - just been brushing up on some psychology yesterday and hope to introduce this new doctor with a scene that will be interesting and will set up some more things that will give the reader to chew on. :)

    I apologise for my little spatt yesterday -I just wasn't sure what was happening - I hope I didn't sound too much like a baby throwing his rattle out of the cot. ;)
  • The Sly FoxThe Sly Fox USAPosts: 467MI6 Agent
    edited August 2007
    Wow, I certainly apologize as well, I had no idea my taking extra on would only delay things further... As daren has said, I unfortunately didn't have the opportunity to even start my bit, then daren's power went out... Is something more at work here? :s

    In any case, there's no need to discard your ideas, daren. You can add them when your turn comes up again, or I can incorporate them in my bit when my turn comes. Although I honestly didn't want Prowess to be a mole, as I envisioned him as a Jack Wade kind of character. Still, he could be such a convincing double-agent that even I didn't know who he was. ;)

    Either way, there's no need to worry about me writing my next bit: I'll make sure I don't get tied up again. Sorry for the mix-up. :)
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    edited August 2007

    In any case, there's no need to discard your ideas, daren. You can add them when your turn comes up again, or I can incorporate them in my bit when my turn comes. Although I honestly didn't want Prowess to be a mole, as I envisioned him as a Jack Wade kind of character. Still, he could be such a convincing double-agent that even I didn't know who he was. ;)

    We don't have to change the Prowess character at all. It was merely my plan to write a secondary plot of Prowess being ordered by Obsidian to eliminate Lissa and frame Bond for the killing. I figured this would keep the reader in London, but keep Bond and the main plot free for SC1 to elaborate the way he planned.

    Looks like Lissa got lucky though. ;)
  • DAWUSSDAWUSS My homepagePosts: 517MI6 Agent
    darenhat wrote:

    In any case, there's no need to discard your ideas, daren. You can add them when your turn comes up again, or I can incorporate them in my bit when my turn comes. Although I honestly didn't want Prowess to be a mole, as I envisioned him as a Jack Wade kind of character. Still, he could be such a convincing double-agent that even I didn't know who he was. ;)

    We don't have to change the Prowess character at all. It was merely my plan to write a secondary plot of Prowess being ordered by Obsidian to eliminate Lissa and frame Bond for the killing. I figured this would keep the reader in London, but keep Bond and the main plot free for SC1 to elaborate the way he planned.

    Looks like Lissa got lucky though. ;)

    IMO it would be a bit more convincing for Prowess to be played by Obs than to be in his direct employ
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    DAWUSS wrote:
    darenhat wrote:

    In any case, there's no need to discard your ideas, daren. You can add them when your turn comes up again, or I can incorporate them in my bit when my turn comes. Although I honestly didn't want Prowess to be a mole, as I envisioned him as a Jack Wade kind of character. Still, he could be such a convincing double-agent that even I didn't know who he was. ;)

    We don't have to change the Prowess character at all. It was merely my plan to write a secondary plot of Prowess being ordered by Obsidian to eliminate Lissa and frame Bond for the killing. I figured this would keep the reader in London, but keep Bond and the main plot free for SC1 to elaborate the way he planned.

    Looks like Lissa got lucky though. ;)

    IMO it would be a bit more convincing for Prowess to be played by Obs than to be in his direct employ

    I like that idea. I actually considered it, but I thought there might be a conflict with Willie Garvin's contribution - wouldn't it seem as if Obs was in two places at once?
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    Just spent two and a half hours writing my contribution and just lost it! I wanted to look at another website for some info and meant to open a new tab so as not to lose what I'd just written -and well I forgot so the page had come up and what I'd written had gone. sorry guys The Gremlins are at work. I can try reposting tomorrow night if you want or someone else can carry on and I'll add my bit as usual when its my turn next. Once again I'm really sorry -as you can imagine I'm a little peed off about it -as I might not write it so well next time. :(
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    This is becoming a bit comical...

    Why don't I try and post my bit tonight (provided I have electricity!). This will give you time to re-write your bit. This way everything proceeds with the normal rotation and in a few days, we can all laugh about it!
  • scaramanga1scaramanga1 The English RivieraPosts: 845Chief of Staff
    Sounds good to me -you don't think this project is facing some of the same adversity that LTK had do you? ;)
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