Leaving these countries alone can be a horrible mistake. The US and the rest of the West left Afghanistan alone after 1989 - that didn't work out so well for New york
Considering that the US has been in Afghanistan for fifteen years (with no end in sight - thanks President Peace Prize) and doesn't have a damned thing to show for it, it's ludicrous to posit that a twelve year presence between 1989 and 2001 would have prevented 9/11. In fact, Osama Bin Laden's 1998 fatwah - issued nine years after your 1989 benchmark - cited multiple examples of the United States's military presence and intervention in the Middle East in his efforts to recruit impressionable Muslims to Al-Qaeda. And in 2004 Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Department issued a report concluding the same thing: these terrorists don't "hate us for our freedoms", they hate us because we are conducting military operations in their homeland.
Furthermore the economic impact of 9/11 was $178 billion ($55bln in physical damage and cleanup, $123bln in stock market losses and ripple effects: NY Times, Sept. 8, 2011). The cost of the Afghanistan war alone - up to this point - has exceeded $1 trillion. Finally, more Americans have died in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars than in the 9/11 attacks.
Conclusion: Your prescription of worldwide military hegemony is costlier in both blood and treasure than the worst terrorist attack in US history, and rather than succeeding in imposing democracy by force it destabilizes the targeted countries, strengthening the rhetorical pull of terror leaders' recruitment pitches.
If the US and the West hadn't ignored the country after the Soviets left, but instead buildt on the support the US had at time because of their support in the fight against the Soviets ..... well, who knows?
Good grief. The mujahideen gladly accepted the training and money the US gave them, knowing full well that they (the muj) would use that knowledge against the Americans when the Russians left. In 1999 Kamaal Khan, a Pakistani defense analyst, told The Guardian, "The bulk of American aid went to the least effective fighters, who turned most strongly to bite the hand that fed them."
"When Clement Rodney Hampton-el, a hospital technician from Brooklyn, New Jersey, returned home from the war in Afghanistan in 1989, he told friends his only desire was to return. Though he had been wounded in the arm and leg by a Russian shell, he said he had failed. He had not achieved martyrdom in the name of Islam.
So he found a different theatre for his holy war and achieved a different sort of martyrdom. Three years ago, he was convicted of planning a series of massive explosions in Manhattan and sentenced to 35 years in prison.
Hampton-el was described by prosecutors as a skilled bomb-maker. It was hardly surprising. In Afghanistan he fought with the Hezb-i-Islami group of mujahideen, whose training and weaponry were mainly supplied by the CIA.
He was not alone. American officials estimate that, from 1985 to 1992, 12,500 foreigners were trained in bomb-making, sabotage and urban guerrilla warfare in Afghan camps the CIA helped to set up."
Conclusion: Your prescription of worldwide military hegemony is costlier in both blood and treasure than the worst terrorist attack in US history, and rather than succeeding in imposing democracy by force it destabilizes the targeted countries, strengthening the rhetorical pull of terror leaders' recruitment pitches.
I couple of comments to Cheld: I was not talking of a US military presens in Afghanistan 1989-2001. I ment civilian aid and support. It is true that most US support for resistance fighters in the Afghan-Soviet war went to groups that were fundamentally fundumentalists .... I mean anti-Western. This was because the Pakistani Inter-Service Inteligence (ISI) demanded they channeled the aid from the US and Saudi Arabia to the Afghanis. The ISI essentially buildt up the Taliban that way. Ideally the US should have found a way to involve the ISIS less, but that would have been difficult.
There were effective Afghan commanders who were not anti-Western such as Masood, whom they could have supporeted more.
After 81% of votes counted in Nevada Clinton has 52,1% of the votes and Sanders 47,8. One would think Clinton would win by much more - is Clinton in trouble?
After 81% of votes counted in Nevada Clinton has 52,1% of the votes and Sanders 47,8. One would think Clinton would win by much more - is Clinton in trouble?
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,992Quartermasters
...and Jeb Bush is OUT
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
It's astonishing that Carson hasn't quit yet, but I'm sure he'll quit on or after the Nevada caucus.
"Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
I couple of comments to Cheld: I was not talking of a US military presens in Afghanistan 1989-2001. I ment civilian aid and support.
You mean like the $6.6 billion that went missing in Iraq?
It is true that most US support for resistance fighters in the Afghan-Soviet war went to groups that were fundamentally fundumentalists .... I mean anti-Western. This was because the Pakistani Inter-Service Inteligence (ISI) demanded they channeled the aid from the US and Saudi Arabia to the Afghanis. The ISI essentially buildt up the Taliban that way. Ideally the US should have found a way to involve the ISIS less, but that would have been difficult.
There were effective Afghan commanders who were not anti-Western such as Masood, whom they could have supporeted more.
The government of "pro-western" Hamid Karzai was ranked with North Korea and Somalia as the most corrupt in the world.
Here's a modest proposal: How about American tax dollars supporting Americans?
Aid can be handled well or handled badly, and in Iraq pretty much everything was handled badly. I never believed anything in that region is easy or clear cut, and no-one can garantee an active civilian American involvment pre-9/11 would have made it better. What we do know is that the cost in US money and lives has been very great in Afghanistan. Afghanistan and Karazai is extremely corrupt, but Thomas Jefferson doesn't run for office in Afghanistan. You do what you can with what you have.
I doubt Bernie Sanders will win. Among other factors Hillary has far more superdelegates than he does.
I think you're underestimating him.
I think he has a far better chance of beating a Republican candidate than Hillary does.
Hillary is just too two-faced to win the presidency.
"Hostile takeovers. Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
Hillary is just too two-faced to win the presidency.
You should look up some of candidate Obama's statements about the debt ceiling, the Export-Import Bank, the authorization of unilateral military attacks, and the concentration of executive power.
Yes, I think he began as a bit of amusement. I doubt many expected the success he's having.
Someone on another board said "supporting Trump is the only way left for an American to give their corrupt government the middle finger without being thrown in jail or put on a list".
Yeah and that middle finger will come with a big pricetag!
If Trump would really execute his dumb and egoistic agenda by p*ssing everybody ( except Putin 8-) ) off, it's gonna be a desaster for humanity!
It's really sad to see how much degenerated and primitive US democracy became that parts of their people seriously consider him to be a reasonable choice for the office. Rant over!
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Comments
Considering that the US has been in Afghanistan for fifteen years (with no end in sight - thanks President Peace Prize) and doesn't have a damned thing to show for it, it's ludicrous to posit that a twelve year presence between 1989 and 2001 would have prevented 9/11. In fact, Osama Bin Laden's 1998 fatwah - issued nine years after your 1989 benchmark - cited multiple examples of the United States's military presence and intervention in the Middle East in his efforts to recruit impressionable Muslims to Al-Qaeda. And in 2004 Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Department issued a report concluding the same thing: these terrorists don't "hate us for our freedoms", they hate us because we are conducting military operations in their homeland.
Furthermore the economic impact of 9/11 was $178 billion ($55bln in physical damage and cleanup, $123bln in stock market losses and ripple effects: NY Times, Sept. 8, 2011). The cost of the Afghanistan war alone - up to this point - has exceeded $1 trillion. Finally, more Americans have died in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars than in the 9/11 attacks.
Conclusion: Your prescription of worldwide military hegemony is costlier in both blood and treasure than the worst terrorist attack in US history, and rather than succeeding in imposing democracy by force it destabilizes the targeted countries, strengthening the rhetorical pull of terror leaders' recruitment pitches.
Good grief. The mujahideen gladly accepted the training and money the US gave them, knowing full well that they (the muj) would use that knowledge against the Americans when the Russians left. In 1999 Kamaal Khan, a Pakistani defense analyst, told The Guardian, "The bulk of American aid went to the least effective fighters, who turned most strongly to bite the hand that fed them."
Frankenstein the CIA created
http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jan/17/yemen.islam
"When Clement Rodney Hampton-el, a hospital technician from Brooklyn, New Jersey, returned home from the war in Afghanistan in 1989, he told friends his only desire was to return. Though he had been wounded in the arm and leg by a Russian shell, he said he had failed. He had not achieved martyrdom in the name of Islam.
So he found a different theatre for his holy war and achieved a different sort of martyrdom. Three years ago, he was convicted of planning a series of massive explosions in Manhattan and sentenced to 35 years in prison.
Hampton-el was described by prosecutors as a skilled bomb-maker. It was hardly surprising. In Afghanistan he fought with the Hezb-i-Islami group of mujahideen, whose training and weaponry were mainly supplied by the CIA.
He was not alone. American officials estimate that, from 1985 to 1992, 12,500 foreigners were trained in bomb-making, sabotage and urban guerrilla warfare in Afghan camps the CIA helped to set up."
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
There were effective Afghan commanders who were not anti-Western such as Masood, whom they could have supporeted more.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
It's astonishing that Carson hasn't quit yet, but I'm sure he'll quit on or after the Nevada caucus.
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
Bernie will be 75 in September.
You mean like the $6.6 billion that went missing in Iraq?
The government of "pro-western" Hamid Karzai was ranked with North Korea and Somalia as the most corrupt in the world.
Here's a modest proposal: How about American tax dollars supporting Americans?
I doubt Bernie Sanders will win. Among other factors Hillary has far more superdelegates than he does.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I think you're underestimating him.
I think he has a far better chance of beating a Republican candidate than Hillary does.
Hillary is just too two-faced to win the presidency.
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD 2. TND 3. GF 4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later
You should look up some of candidate Obama's statements about the debt ceiling, the Export-Import Bank, the authorization of unilateral military attacks, and the concentration of executive power.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I know, and the pundits surely never expected it!
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lGH_DvtBEM
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
That was insanely funny. {[]
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Someone on another board said "supporting Trump is the only way left for an American to give their corrupt government the middle finger without being thrown in jail or put on a list".
If Trump would really execute his dumb and egoistic agenda by p*ssing everybody ( except Putin 8-) ) off, it's gonna be a desaster for humanity!
It's really sad to see how much degenerated and primitive US democracy became that parts of their people seriously consider him to be a reasonable choice for the office. Rant over!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Fantastic!