It seems likely the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic will require random checks even with the best technology available. I don't know how catholic nationalists will react to that? That border does not have a history of peace and trust, at least for the last hundred years I should think.
If the Uk can‘t trust the EU for not creating the backstop as a vehicle to permanently lock them to the EU, how can borderchecks based on confidence work the other way round?
Additionally, during the negotiations, UK‘s strategy was to divide the single countries against each other and low tax haven practices against the EU have been considered in public and have been used as a negotiating tool.
Not a good base for borders based on confidence.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
To our friends from the ‚It was a democratic choice and we must follow that‘ camp.
It‘s now almost 3 years ago that the vote has been cast and there are demographic changes, additional facts and circumstances present and the general opinion may have changed - just like between 2 parliament elections.
But I keep on saying, I don‘t want a second referendum. If anything is clear as day, the first referendum showed evidently how an entire country can screw this all up before, during and after and how harmful that ‚idea‘ was.
I hope, that Italy will veto the extension and we will have a Hard Brexit or alternatively Mrs. May will stop that nonsense entirely.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Italy may well veto, they will be feeling confident and in no mood to follow EU requests after following Greeces example and signing on China's dotted line for investment in their country and further allowing China's World domination to continue, a domination the EU are wary of for many justifiable reasons. As a self serving trading market the EU collectively have been impotent in combatting Chinas exports into Europe.
A hard Brexit is not as fearsome as some would have the world believe, its what it represents that's worrying, breaking a trading agreement is one thing, but lurching into xenophobia and hiding that behind Brexit is not on and doesn't do most UK citizens justice. If a hard Brexit is what happens I don't want it being misconstrued as the UK seeking isolationism from our neighbours.
When do we stop having referendums on an issue? Good question, I think. Is it likely the British public will be better informed if there is a new referendum?
If (big IF) there is new referendum the question shouldn't be simply Stay or Leave. The realistic choices would be Stay, Hard Brexit or the deal May has negotiated. But how much of the total population would vote on any of those alternatives? A lot of people wouldn't vote at all and the rest would be distributed on the three alternatives. If none of the alternatives get over 30% of the total adult population (not unlikely at all), what use is a referendum?
A new elelction might be an alternative, but not a very good solution. All the major parties are split on the Brexit issue, so what are you voting for if you vote, say ….. Tory? Perhaps all the listed candidates should tell the public what they will vote on Brexit, then the parties let the MP's vote according to their beliefs? One thing is for sure, both and election and a referendum will take time.
We stop having referendums when the politicians that are elected do their democratic duty and deliver on their manifesto pledges.... Which is what gets them elected in the first place. But as that isn't the case referendums should only ever be held on matters of extreme national importance and the results should never be political. The EU referendum was such an important matter that it should be apolitical. A big part of the current impasse in the houses of Parliament is that political parties are whopping the votes. On this matter mps should be able to vote freely without fear of upsetting the party line. But as most mps are self serving narcissistic grandstanding types who put their own agenda first this simply never happens.
The rise in populism accross Europe, misinformation and Brexit itself is showing just how rotten the west's political systems are.
In this bizarre 007 outing, the audience arrives at the cinema to find that they are invited to vote on various aspects of the new Bond film, such as whether he should have a eco car, whether he should show some grey in his hair, and whether it should be delayed again, and they are compelled to return the following week to vote on the next topic in hand.
This carries on ad infinitum, week in week out, until the cinema going public become heartily sick of the James Bond franchise.
In this bizarre 007 outing, the audience arrives at the cinema to find that they are invited to vote on various aspects of the new Bond film, such as whether he should have a eco car, whether he should show some grey in his hair, and whether it should be delayed again, and they are compelled to return the following week to vote on the next topic in hand.
This carries on ad infinitum, week in week out, until the cinema going public become heartily sick of the James Bond franchise.
A question: I've seen the Speaker of the House bellow "Unlock" a few times. Does it mean a vote is over? Is/was there a practical background for this, perhaps the tradition of voting by taking a stroll?
I think there are rare examples where referendums are the right thing to do. Since our independence in 1905 Norway has had six referendums: Independence/continued union with Sweden, Republic/monarchy, prohibition for hard alcohol (two referendums, for starting and ending the prohibition) and two EU referendums in 1972 and 1994. Personally I think there was no need for referendums about prohibition. It's worth mentioning that the 1994 referendum was held AFTER negotiating a deal with the EU, so we knew pretty well what we were voting on. In all six referendums the alternatives were very clear, "joining the EU and accepting the terms of some future agreement with them" was never an option. Referendums must be rare and the alternatives must be as clear as possible.
We stop having referendums when the politicians that are elected do their democratic duty and deliver on their manifesto pledges.... Which is what gets them elected in the first place. But as that isn't the case referendums should only ever be held on matters of extreme national importance and the results should never be political. The EU referendum was such an important matter that it should be apolitical. A big part of the current impasse in the houses of Parliament is that political parties are whopping the votes. On this matter mps should be able to vote freely without fear of upsetting the party line. But as most mps are self serving narcissistic grandstanding types who put their own agenda first this simply never happens.
The rise in populism accross Europe, misinformation and Brexit itself is showing just how rotten the west's political systems are.
Imo, it‘s more a sign of, how rotten the western societies have become.
First of all, those politicians have been democratically elected by the population.
You should accept a democratic vote :v
And if you look at the political ‚discussions‘ among citizens, there is a clear sign how social media and all the crap around it has been destroying any kind of culture.
Then Mr. Putin must have the champagne bottles popping every single day, how so many of the west fall into the hatred and misinformation, that his little troll army manages to spread out.
That he can put out his prpaganda so efficiently, nobody would have though that 25 years ago.
And the deed of Mr. Murdoch and friends is almost finished, just have a look at the crap that comes out of his media weapons.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The doors of the rooms the MPs og to when they vote?
I think the British Parliament is somewhere between the South Korean one and our Storting. Last week an unexoperienced MP was clubbed by the Speaker (we call the person President) for saying "The government's climate policy is a flopp".
President: "Be adviced: 'flopp' isn't a parliamentary expression." There's never any booing or cheering, some laughter can be allowed. Yours is more entertaining )
... but lurching into xenophobia and hiding that behind Brexit is not on and doesn't do most UK citizens justice. If a hard Brexit is what happens I don't want it being misconstrued as the UK seeking isolationism from our neighbours.
All my british friends confirm, that the Brexit vote was mainly about immigration.
And I have certainly not forgotten how a large number of immigrants have been treated after the vote. Newspapers have been full of stories about xenophobic incidents, I know germans, who have been told by their own neighbors to leave.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
A lot of remainers always make this point ( falsely ) as in several
Polls, the biggest reason given for voting leave. Was to take back
Control of the country.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Yes, that's why Ukip was emphasizing not on xenophobia.........
And those who spitted on Polish people, Indian immigrants, where spraying graffitis on immigrant's houses right after the vote where only happy to get back control.
And even here on AJB, immigrants from the EU where a main discussion point. Alone with "Taking back control" and the so promising trade deal, the Brexit side would never have won!
As for Getting Back Control: Just look at your parliament in the last months and see how well that worked...... )
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Doesn't matter what message a particular political party was
Promoting, the polls carried out asking voters why they voted
The way they did gave the largest percentage to " taking back
Control of the country "
So is it a case of not only not trusting the public but not believing
Them either ? )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
"Taking back control of the country " can mean a lot of different things for differnt people. For some it may mean deciding the pollution regulations on a national level, for others it can mean stopping immigration.
I have no problem admitting that immigration was a main driver in the 2017 elections in Germany
Without calling the majority of my fellow germans racists, but there was a xenophobic undertone here as well.
Not as much and not as opens like during the Brexit campaining, but it was and it was strong.
And the EU does not want to "keep you" (Conspiracy theory from the right wing).
Europe is ready for a Brexit - preferrably with the deal which has been negotiated in the last 2 years with the UK (and not at gunpoint may I say). That your ELECTED parliament is not able to get their act together, is hardly the EUs fault.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I have pointed out that you are giving false news about the
Reason people voted leave. So if you have such flimsy evidence
For one aspect of your argument, I expect the rest to also stand on
Weak foundations.
So far you seem to have pointed out all the remain propaganda,
Which failed the last time, but I guess you feel if you try it again
It will work better the second time.
After all using your evidence the UK is stupid ( we didn't understand the question ), and racist. Once again why does the EU want to keep us. Is it perhaps the billions we pay in to it after all the UK leaving is the equivalent of 19 of the smaller countries leaving.
That's the EU , it's ok to be racist or xenophobic so long as you pay us )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
You are still failing to give a constructive suggestion how to solve the Ireland issue.
What I reject is that I am pointing out propaganda.
I have giving my point of view about Brexit and if you read my recent post, I want a hard brexit next month.
But I am not following your stance that if one of your argument is false,the rest of your arguments stand on weak foundations.
I did not call the UK stupid. And saying that I did is!
I gave a very elaborate explanation,
- why the refenerndum was a bad idea,
- why the decision process has been highly emotional and radical (and with a xenophobic undertone - I stand with it)
- why and how many of your countrymen limited their research to shallow paroles and lies and misinformation.
- why Referendums must be carefully implemented into the political system and the raised questions must be carefully worded and the potential consequences must be comprehensivlely discussed.
Denying that immigration played a large part in the vote is just ignoring the facts and accusing me of calling half of the Brits racists is just as shallow as most of your oneliners here in the thread.
Our world and society is very complex and it's getting more and more - populist paroles "They don't want to let us go" or "vote until you like the result" is just shallow and an insult to your intelligence.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Comments
Additionally, during the negotiations, UK‘s strategy was to divide the single countries against each other and low tax haven practices against the EU have been considered in public and have been used as a negotiating tool.
Not a good base for borders based on confidence.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It‘s now almost 3 years ago that the vote has been cast and there are demographic changes, additional facts and circumstances present and the general opinion may have changed - just like between 2 parliament elections.
But I keep on saying, I don‘t want a second referendum. If anything is clear as day, the first referendum showed evidently how an entire country can screw this all up before, during and after and how harmful that ‚idea‘ was.
I hope, that Italy will veto the extension and we will have a Hard Brexit or alternatively Mrs. May will stop that nonsense entirely.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Six months, ........ just stop having them when the stupid
Public vote The Right Way.
A hard Brexit is not as fearsome as some would have the world believe, its what it represents that's worrying, breaking a trading agreement is one thing, but lurching into xenophobia and hiding that behind Brexit is not on and doesn't do most UK citizens justice. If a hard Brexit is what happens I don't want it being misconstrued as the UK seeking isolationism from our neighbours.
If (big IF) there is new referendum the question shouldn't be simply Stay or Leave. The realistic choices would be Stay, Hard Brexit or the deal May has negotiated. But how much of the total population would vote on any of those alternatives? A lot of people wouldn't vote at all and the rest would be distributed on the three alternatives. If none of the alternatives get over 30% of the total adult population (not unlikely at all), what use is a referendum?
A new elelction might be an alternative, but not a very good solution. All the major parties are split on the Brexit issue, so what are you voting for if you vote, say ….. Tory? Perhaps all the listed candidates should tell the public what they will vote on Brexit, then the parties let the MP's vote according to their beliefs? One thing is for sure, both and election and a referendum will take time.
Damn Cammeron!
The rise in populism accross Europe, misinformation and Brexit itself is showing just how rotten the west's political systems are.
Daniel Craig is James Bond in
The Joji Fukunaga Amdendment
In this bizarre 007 outing, the audience arrives at the cinema to find that they are invited to vote on various aspects of the new Bond film, such as whether he should have a eco car, whether he should show some grey in his hair, and whether it should be delayed again, and they are compelled to return the following week to vote on the next topic in hand.
This carries on ad infinitum, week in week out, until the cinema going public become heartily sick of the James Bond franchise.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I think there are rare examples where referendums are the right thing to do. Since our independence in 1905 Norway has had six referendums: Independence/continued union with Sweden, Republic/monarchy, prohibition for hard alcohol (two referendums, for starting and ending the prohibition) and two EU referendums in 1972 and 1994. Personally I think there was no need for referendums about prohibition. It's worth mentioning that the 1994 referendum was held AFTER negotiating a deal with the EU, so we knew pretty well what we were voting on. In all six referendums the alternatives were very clear, "joining the EU and accepting the terms of some future agreement with them" was never an option. Referendums must be rare and the alternatives must be as clear as possible.
Imo, it‘s more a sign of, how rotten the western societies have become.
First of all, those politicians have been democratically elected by the population.
You should accept a democratic vote :v
And if you look at the political ‚discussions‘ among citizens, there is a clear sign how social media and all the crap around it has been destroying any kind of culture.
Then Mr. Putin must have the champagne bottles popping every single day, how so many of the west fall into the hatred and misinformation, that his little troll army manages to spread out.
That he can put out his prpaganda so efficiently, nobody would have though that 25 years ago.
And the deed of Mr. Murdoch and friends is almost finished, just have a look at the crap that comes out of his media weapons.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The doors of the rooms the MPs og to when they vote?
I think the British Parliament is somewhere between the South Korean one and our Storting. Last week an unexoperienced MP was clubbed by the Speaker (we call the person President) for saying "The government's climate policy is a flopp".
President: "Be adviced: 'flopp' isn't a parliamentary expression." There's never any booing or cheering, some laughter can be allowed. Yours is more entertaining
So they can't get back in to the chamber.
All my british friends confirm, that the Brexit vote was mainly about immigration.
And I have certainly not forgotten how a large number of immigrants have been treated after the vote. Newspapers have been full of stories about xenophobic incidents, I know germans, who have been told by their own neighbors to leave.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Polls, the biggest reason given for voting leave. Was to take back
Control of the country.
And those who spitted on Polish people, Indian immigrants, where spraying graffitis on immigrant's houses right after the vote where only happy to get back control.
And even here on AJB, immigrants from the EU where a main discussion point. Alone with "Taking back control" and the so promising trade deal, the Brexit side would never have won!
As for Getting Back Control: Just look at your parliament in the last months and see how well that worked......
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Promoting, the polls carried out asking voters why they voted
The way they did gave the largest percentage to " taking back
Control of the country "
So is it a case of not only not trusting the public but not believing
Them either ?
but if the main motivations where:
50% getting back control
30% about immigration and foreigners (all numbers made up by me to make a point)
I am sure that immigration was in the top 5 (Imo nr. 1, but anyhow but not everybody will confirm that it was their main driver in a public poll)
That would be far more than enough to get the 2% that gave the edge.
I was speaking about a strong xenophobic undertone and that was.
And that was successful in the end - just like the explosion of hate against foreigners after the vote demonstrated.
Just follow your Facebook friends and tell me, that not at least of 30% of the political remarks have a xenophobic undertone.
I am not on Facebook but my friends confirm that number
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
EU want to keep us
I have no problem admitting that immigration was a main driver in the 2017 elections in Germany
Without calling the majority of my fellow germans racists, but there was a xenophobic undertone here as well.
Not as much and not as opens like during the Brexit campaining, but it was and it was strong.
And the EU does not want to "keep you" (Conspiracy theory from the right wing).
Europe is ready for a Brexit - preferrably with the deal which has been negotiated in the last 2 years with the UK (and not at gunpoint may I say). That your ELECTED parliament is not able to get their act together, is hardly the EUs fault.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Reason people voted leave. So if you have such flimsy evidence
For one aspect of your argument, I expect the rest to also stand on
Weak foundations.
So far you seem to have pointed out all the remain propaganda,
Which failed the last time, but I guess you feel if you try it again
It will work better the second time.
After all using your evidence the UK is stupid ( we didn't understand the question ), and racist. Once again why does the EU want to keep us. Is it perhaps the billions we pay in to it
That's the EU , it's ok to be racist or xenophobic so long as you pay us
What I reject is that I am pointing out propaganda.
I have giving my point of view about Brexit and if you read my recent post, I want a hard brexit next month.
But I am not following your stance that if one of your argument is false,the rest of your arguments stand on weak foundations.
I did not call the UK stupid. And saying that I did is!
I gave a very elaborate explanation,
- why the refenerndum was a bad idea,
- why the decision process has been highly emotional and radical (and with a xenophobic undertone - I stand with it)
- why and how many of your countrymen limited their research to shallow paroles and lies and misinformation.
- why Referendums must be carefully implemented into the political system and the raised questions must be carefully worded and the potential consequences must be comprehensivlely discussed.
Denying that immigration played a large part in the vote is just ignoring the facts and accusing me of calling half of the Brits racists is just as shallow as most of your oneliners here in the thread.
Our world and society is very complex and it's getting more and more - populist paroles "They don't want to let us go" or "vote until you like the result" is just shallow and an insult to your intelligence.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!