Coronavirus

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  • Lady RoseLady Rose London,UKPosts: 2,550MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:
    The EU has invested 336 Million Euros with Astra Zeneca....

    And with a minimum understanding about how a virus is transferred - the main measure is to reduce contacts.
    If a country decides to leave the economy open - most people are working - so limiting contacts after 18:00 makes sense.

    While it's true that the virus is still active after 18:00 - it's an oversimplification of a more complex strategy.

    And I don't label you anything, I just don't understand why you insist on the Anti-UK Vaccination theory.
    You guys seem to be still obsessed negatively with the EU - you really should get over it soon.


    We've tried curfews and a tiering system but when the R rate gets too high the only thing that really works is a lockdown.

    I'm not insisting in an anti uk vaccination theory but the EU's behaviour the past week or so has been outright hostile and counter productive. It culminated with the EU throwing Ireland (one of it own members) under the at the weekend then claiming amongst other things it was a mistake. That is a lie. Someone there authorised triggering Article 16. The EU basically had a massive hissy fit.

    Maybe if you took your rose tinted glasses off occasionally and developed some objectivity you may be able to see the the EU has it flaws and on this occasion have messed up quite spectacularly

    One thing that has become apparent from this is regardless of all the good intentions of the EU working as one when it comes down to it every country wants to fight for themselves and their political leaders, like Macron, realise that being in the EU won't help him get elected when the time comes. I doubt the French people will tolerate Macron not getting a vaccine, so of course it is in his own interest to deflect blame and spout incorrect information about AZ. I am focusing on Macron because he has been the most vocal.

    The contracts have been released and it would appear the AZ are in the right.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 33,214Chief of Staff
    General comment, not aimed at any one person-
    Things appear to have been getting a little heated in this thread. I understand that this is an emotional subject and, as I said in the opening post, the most important thing happening in the world today, but I do ask that we talk in a more general way.

    Breaking that very rule, the best laugh in this thread was Higgins saying "If I was sarcastic" a few posts earlier. :D
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    edited February 2021
    :D :D

    You know that you can always count on me, Barbel

    Having said all this, experts here confirm that the EU may be in the right re. the AZ contract, but it won‘t help us getting that confirmed at courts many years later.

    I have no problem to admit that the UK rolled out vaccination faster than the EU and I am not happy about the delays that happen.
    And it was not a good idea to consider to block vaccination deliveries to Ireland - no matter what the reasons where for it. I am glad that this has been stopped immediately - but I repeat: Johnson in a similar situation would have blocked all exports in the blink of an eye and many here would have applauded him for doing so and defended him and that decision*


    But the accusations and big amateur theories against Macron are just laughable.

    * The accusations would be then that the evil EU where not playing fair game and would have robbed everyone else of a vaccine with all their money and power and egoism.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,591Chief of Staff
    Higgins wrote:
    Sir Miles wrote:
    Oh, I absolutely agree with you...it’s the German vaccination committee that were casting doubt.

    That is not correct!

    Scientists have already complained the lack of data for elderly for quite some time - and it seems that not only the germans are hesitant (at this point - if better data come up - that all may change).

    I am hearing today, that Italy only use AZ for <55 years, the French have their concerns, too.

    But even if it would be all scaremongering by the „germans“, there is no „Anti-UK vaccine rhetoric“ in the german press like initially accused!
    They are only reporting what is being (controversially) discussed.

    And if there was an „Anti-UK Vaccination“ state of mind here, we would not use this vaccine for our people <65 with our essential workers in the medical field at front.

    So we can safely put this „Anti-UK“ crap to rest.


    Where do I mention anything ’anti-UK’ ? ?:)
    Please don’t accuse me of things I haven’t said...

    I just repeated that it was the German vaccination committee that was casting doubt upon using a particular vaccine on the older community...which was something YOU posted first :s

    Then you tell me it’s not true...
    Higgins wrote:
    That is not correct!

    Then you tell me it is :s
    Higgins wrote:
    Scientists have already complained the lack of data for elderly for quite some time - and it seems that not only the germans are hesitant (at this point - if better data come up - that all may change).

    :o
    YNWA 97
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,591Chief of Staff
    Number24 wrote:
    Sir Miles wrote:
    Number24 wrote:

    I disagree. While one can't be absolutely sure about the effectiveness and effects of the vaccines, but they're pretty close to sure. Testing was done in reccord time, but not because any part of the testing was skipped. Instead the phases overlapped. Testing on animals was not completly finished before testing on humans begun, but they were completed.

    Unfortunately ’they’ are not ‘pretty close to sure’...it’s ‘best guess’ territory...vaccines take years to develop and test, these have taken a few months...coronavirus is mutating all the time and it’s not sure how these vaccines work against the different mutations - although some appear to work better than others...

    There is some doubt about the mutations naturally.
    But with the standard virus we're not talking about guessing. The development was quick because so much talent and money was thrown at it. The vaccines went through all the stages of testing, but the process was compressed in time.

    You cannot test properly in such a short time...scientists have no idea how effective these jabs are - anything from 33% to 70% (roughly) for the first injection...depending upon which ‘brand’ you get, and this percentage differs with the age of the patient...and they still have no idea how long these vaccines will work for - if that’s not guessing then I don’t know what is? ?:)
    YNWA 97
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:

    Where do I mention anything ’anti-UK’ ? ?:)
    Please don’t accuse me of things I haven’t said...

    Only the first 2 lines where directed as a direct reply to you:
    Higgins wrote:
    That is not correct!

    Scientists have already complained the lack of data for elderly for quite some time - and it seems that not only the germans are hesitant (at this point - if better data come up - that all may change).
    Then I went a bit more general.

    I thought that it was obvious - well - probably not for you :p
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,591Chief of Staff
    Higgins wrote:
    Sir Miles wrote:

    Where do I mention anything ’anti-UK’ ? ?:)
    Please don’t accuse me of things I haven’t said...

    Only the first 2 lines where directed as a direct reply to you:
    Higgins wrote:
    That is not correct!

    Scientists have already complained the lack of data for elderly for quite some time - and it seems that not only the germans are hesitant (at this point - if better data come up - that all may change).
    Then I went a bit more general.

    Then you have my apologies -{
    Higgins wrote:
    I thought that it was obvious - well - probably not for you :p

    No, I need things to be spelled out to me now I’m in my old age :o :007)
    YNWA 97
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:

    No, I need things to be spelled out to me now I’m in my old age :o :007)

    I'll keep that in mind - until I forget - or don't care :D
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    Russia‘s Sputnik vaccine appears to have an efficiency of >90% - so who wants to get a shot? :v

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00234-8/fulltext
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 9,646MI6 Agent
    It's dispensed via the tip of an umbrella! :# :D
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    or a shoe ;)

    Now seriously, this could be a solution for those countries that can‘t store/pay the other vaccines and went second or third when the rich West robbed the entire market with their multiple orders.

    I do hope that there will be independent trials under the surveillance of the WHO or others to check, if it really makes sense.
    The question is just, if there are enough participants that are willing to test it.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,591Chief of Staff
    And the UK variant of coronavirus has mutated again....
    YNWA 97
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    Probably the consequences of the non-existent measures during last summer and fall?

    The EU is under massive flak for being later in getting the vaccines compared to the UK and the US.

    What has to be kept in mind is, that

    1. the US initiated a war act which secured all vaccines and products from the country for the country.
    2. Similar the UK - where the 2 AZ sites are producing for the UK only and additionally the UK is buying from the EU, where vaccines are not only produced for the EU but for the rest of the world - including the UK.

    I may sound like a sore loser ( I can take this), but the UK's behavior is a bit like in a hotel on Mallorca:

    The Brits stand up early at 6:00 and take all available umbrellas and sunchairs - more than what they really need.
    The EU citizens wake up at 8:00 and realize that most of the sunchairs are gone and the Brits refuse to give some umbrellas to them from their stock because they where too late when the umbrellas where available.

    - Now the question is, what we think of that and are they really sore losers?
    - Who is playing fair and who behaves unfair?
    - Who is making unreasonable complaints?
    - How would that change, if the germans are the ones that are cornering all sunchairs in the drawn scenario and the Brits are left unprotected in the sun because they have gotten too late out of their beds?
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    It's dispensed via the tip of an umbrella! :# :D

    The good news is, that it‘s not very likely that Bill Gate‘s influence goes so far into Russia and China - so everyone who fears, that Bill Gates puts small microchips into the vaccine and gets them implanted into our bodies when vaccinating ( yes - many people really believe that exactly this happens....) should be safe with Sputnik and the stuff that comes from China....
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Lady RoseLady Rose London,UKPosts: 2,550MI6 Agent
    Excellent news about the AZ vaccine.

    In a new study it is believed it substantially cuts transmission which would be a major breakthrough. Some have described it as 'the Holy Grail'. Also, the one dose for 12 weeks policy is working.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55910964

    https://news.sky.com/story/oxford-vaccine-may-have-67-effect-on-transmission-and-protection-remains-for-three-month-jab-interval-12206734

    Also 9.6 million people in the UK vaccinated as of yesterday. All the oldies in my family have been done and my hubby had his this morning. (He was given the Pfizer jab) I'm waiting to get the call up anytime soon.

    After the absolute shambles of the last 12 months it's brilliant how our vaccine roll out is going and apparently it's all down to Matt Hancock watching 'Contagion' :o


    Here is an article from The Telegraph comparing the two vaccines. Telegraph are normally behind a pay wall but I was able to access this article no problem

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/pfizer-covid-vaccine-transmission-efficacy-oxford/
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,591Chief of Staff
    Higgins wrote:
    Probably the consequences of the non-existent measures during last summer and fall?

    More than likely...Johnson was under pressure from the retail sector to keep stores open and he should have closed the borders far sooner...his inaction then has consequences now :(

    Higgins wrote:
    The EU is under massive flak for being later in getting the vaccines compared to the UK and the US.

    What has to be kept in mind is, that

    1. the US initiated a war act which secured all vaccines and products from the country for the country.
    2. Similar the UK - where the 2 AZ sites are producing for the UK only and additionally the UK is buying from the EU, where vaccines are not only produced for the EU but for the rest of the world - including the UK.

    I may sound like a sore loser ( I can take this), but the UK's behavior is a bit like in a hotel on Mallorca:

    The Brits stand up early at 6:00 and take all available umbrellas and sunchairs - more than what they really need.
    The EU citizens wake up at 8:00 and realize that most of the sunchairs are gone and the Brits refuse to give some umbrellas to them from their stock because they where too late when the umbrellas where available.

    - Now the question is, what we think of that and are they really sore losers?
    - Who is playing fair and who behaves unfair?
    - Who is making unreasonable complaints?
    - How would that change, if the germans are the ones that are cornering all sunchairs in the drawn scenario and the Brits are left unprotected in the sun because they have gotten too late out of their beds?


    This is a horrible case of countries failing to act together for the greater good...you can blame the US & UK for being quicker off the mark or you can blame the EU for being too slow and unwieldy in its decision making - something that has been levelled at it before. Perhaps that was why the EU tried to ban the export of the drug to Ireland? A decision that blew up in their face within hours :o I don’t believe anyone comes out of it looking good.

    Although I’m not sure why you only blast the UK and not the US as well ?:)

    To continue with your analogy...the UK haven’t taken more of the available umbrellas/sun chairs than they need...we still need far more...although it’s the first time I’ve ever heard a German complain that the Brits have nabbed all the sun loungers :))

    I do agree that a fairer system would have been preferential...perhaps the EU does need a ‘root and branch’ update? ;)
    A pity the UK decided to leave then, instead of staying and helping push through changes.
    YNWA 97
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    edited February 2021
    Yes, my analogy is flawed, but the point still is valid:

    What about if the EU would have been faster - how would that be seen in the UK?
    Admittedly, the EU where too slow in that brutal race for squirreling as much of vaccine no matter about others - but the glee and the „rub in the face“ from some here is hard to take.

    Why not criticizing the US?
    1. With Trump‘s America First, what else would you expect?
    2. The UK are supplied by sites that are located in the EU while ordering their 2 UK sites to supply the UK only. The US are not getting any vaccines that are produced in Europe.

    Now about the Ireland thing:
    As far as I know, it was a draft and not a final order and it has been immediately stopped by some main European leaders (so much for the supposed „Anti UK Vaccination“ spirit here).
    It was a mistake and Europe should Never act as selfishly as the UK and the USA are in terms of their locally produced vaccine!

    Just as I have said earlier - now let‘s imagine how BOJO would act, if he was in that position: Lack of vaccine locally and local production goes to everywhere. He would not hesitate to order local factories to supply the UK first and only!
    And many here would find it „fair“, „reasonable“ „In the National Interest“ and would defend and applaud that decision.

    So that outrage about that horrible EU draft particularly from the UK is a prime example for hypocrisy!
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Lady RoseLady Rose London,UKPosts: 2,550MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:
    This is a horrible case of countries failing to act together for the greater good...you can blame the US & UK for being quicker off the mark or you can blame the EU for being too slow and unwieldy in its decision making - something that has been levelled at it before. Perhaps that was why the EU tried to ban the export of the drug to Ireland? A decision that blew up in their face within hours :o I don’t believe anyone comes out of it looking good.

    Although I’m not sure why you only blast the UK and not the US as well ?:)

    To continue with your analogy...the UK haven’t taken more of the available umbrellas/sun chairs than they need...we still need far more...although it’s the first time I’ve ever heard a German complain that the Brits have nabbed all the sun loungers :))

    I do agree that a fairer system would have been preferential...perhaps the EU does need a ‘root and branch’ update? ;)
    A pity the UK decided to leave then, instead of staying and helping push through changes.

    I think it's a case of everyman for himself.

    In an ideal world everyone would work to gather and spread the vaccine.However, with one of the biggest deaths tolls in the world the UK's way out of this was always going to be vaccine.


    Germany have been snapping up extra doses of vaccine which goes against EU vaccination agreement. France and Denmark have also started doing this. Germany are procuring lots of extra vaccine leaving other EU countries disgruntled.

    If you have the money, you will ultimately do the best for your country and put their own citizens first.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-buys-extra-coronavirus-vaccine-doses-from-eu-countries/
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    edited February 2021
    The EU vaccination purchase plan stands.
    Germany stayed calm and supportive until all contracts have been finalized and that includes timelines for supply.

    Buying additional vaccine does not take anything away from the EU vaccination quantities and does not weaken the EU negotiating position because all contracts are done. And it doesn‘t delay any delivery which has been negotiated and contracted by the EU.

    Biontec has surprisingly shortened supply for some weeks now for the benefit of increased production capacity. Entire Europe suffers from these shortages and Germany purchased some of the „extra“ production from a later point of time.
    Nobody receives less vaccines or later from it because of this.

    Astra Zeneca surprisingly shortened their supply from the EU factories and will not be able to catch up. So I find it legitimate that Germany buys more Biontec from the extra stock to speed up their own programme which has been delayed by that breech of contract from AZ.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Lady RoseLady Rose London,UKPosts: 2,550MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:
    Yes, my analogy is flawed, but the point still is valid:

    What about if the EU would have been faster - how would that be seen in the UK?
    Admittedly, the EU where too slow in that brutal race for squirreling as much of vaccine no matter about others - but the glee and the „rub in the face“ from some here is hard to take.

    Why not criticizing the US?
    1. With Trump‘s America First, what else would you expect?
    2. The UK are supplied by sites that are located in the EU while ordering their 2 UK sites to supply the UK only. The US are not getting any vaccines that are produced in Europe.

    Now about the Ireland thing:
    As far as I know, it was a draft and not a final order and it has been immediately stopped by some main European leaders (so much for the supposed „Anti UK Vaccination“ spirit here.
    It was a mistake and Europe should Never act as selfishly as the UK and the USA are in terms of their locally produced vaccine!

    Just as I have said earlier - now let‘s imagine how BOJO would act, if he was in that position: Lack of vaccine locally and local production goes to everywhere. He would not hesitate to order local factories to supply the UK first! And many here would find it „fair“, „reasonable“ „In the Narional Interest“ and would defend and applaud that decision.

    So that outrage in the UK about that horrible EU draft particularly from the UK is a prime example for hypocrisy!

    You do seem to specialise in whataboutary 8-)

    You cannot counter every criticism with a 'well, what would Boris have done?'

    The actions of the EU on Friday were a disgrace and have caused problems in Northern Ireland with tensions rising there. The fact you describe it as 'Now about the Ireland thing' is disgusting and you don't have the foggiest comprehnsion how fragile things are there. You really should watch your anti UK rhetoric.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    My point is still valid.

    The Brexiteers gave a sh*t about the fragile situation at the irish border for years now!
    And the draft has been sacked exactly because in the end, the EU leaders did not want to weaken the situation there.

    The issue still stands: The border in Ireland can be used and abused as a gateway to bring EU goods illegally to the UK. And that was what the draft was about.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    Lady Rose wrote:

    The actions of the EU on Friday were a disgrace and have caused problems in Northern Ireland with tensions rising there. The fact you describe it as 'Now about the Ireland thing' is disgusting and you don't have the foggiest comprehnsion how fragile things are there. You really should watch your anti UK rhetoric.

    I have called the EU draft „The Ireland Thing“.

    I am well aware of the history of the conflicts at the Irish border and I have been ALWAYS reasoning to consider that when we had fights about Brexit in the Political thread.

    You should be careful labeling my words disgusting and my comprehension on the topic foggy.
    You are way out of line here!
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 33,214Chief of Staff
    Please note what I said in post 1,323 above.

    I think a bit of cooling off is in order here.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 33,214Chief of Staff
    Round 2. Now remember, we're all

    happy-bunnies-vector-17325.jpg
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    edited February 2021
    As for the theatre outrage re. the EU Ireland draft:

    Not long time ago, Johnson and Gove attempted to install the unlawful Internal Market Bill which contradicted most of the agreements re the open border between NI and Ireland.

    And now Gove is first to cry foul when the EU drafts something similar that applies „only“ for vaccines.

    That does not make the EU draft any better - it was just wrong and stupid.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 33,214Chief of Staff
    So, if I've grasped this properly, Gove is a liar or incompetent or both? Please advise.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    edited February 2021
    :)) :))

    I‘ll try to remain a Happy Bunny and refuse to give a response on this ;)

    Gove is on the record for having called the GFA a “capitulation to violence”, a “moral stain” and the “validation of terrorism”.

    conservative-leadership-bid-11-390x285.jpg
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 33,214Chief of Staff
    For the record- I'm no fan of Gove. :)
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,597MI6 Agent
    edited February 2021
    Just a little background about the EU draft:

    AZ has a contract with the EU that secures 80 million doses for the first quarter of 2021 from their european production sites.
    2 Weeks ago, AZ announced, that they will only supply 31 million doses in that time - without giving proper explanations for the cause of it. The AZ UK sites supply the UK with the full contracted numbers.

    Unproven word among EU officials has it, that the UK tried/tries to redirect chunks of the EU AZ sites (the suddenly "missing" 49 million doses) to speed up their own programme by using the open border in Ireland.

    The EU tries/tried to make this impossible and one (very bad ) idea was to put up checks at the Irish border.

    Now before anyone pops up calling this nonsense "because the UK ordered many more doses than actually needed" - the EU is in the same position.
    But until April almost nobody is getting enough doses that they really need and that includes the UK AND the EU.
    So, it's about speed and not about enough total quantities.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 9,646MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    So, if I've grasped this properly, Gove is a liar or incompetent or both? Please advise.

    It does seem to be a State ruse to pass off wilful negligence or corruption as incompetence - and often the operator involved is genuinely incompetent enough for it to be credible.
    Social workers do this a heck of a lot, I've found, in the area of adult social care.
    At a 'higher' level, the former Cabinet minister Chris Grayling made this a speciality. His 'incompetence' is well recorded, but he was a Cabinet minister for just about longer than any, bar his long-term ally Theresa May, and perhaps Gove. So who's the fool - not him.
    See @GraylingLegacy on Twitter for more.

    There is a traditional reason for this - allegations of corruption in public life are very serious indeed, (and making such allegations are actionable if unproven) but oddly it's hard to fire someone for incompetence. Incompetence it is then.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
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