Coronavirus

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  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,314Chief of Staff
    edited March 16

    According to the Norwegian Medicines Agency, as of 14 January there had been 23 deaths “associated with” getting a Pfizer Covid-19 vaccination, of which 13 had been assessed so far.


    Denmark has temporarily suspended use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca covid-19 vaccine as a precautionary move after reports of blood clots and one death.


    These were the first two results I got from asking the same question for each vaccine. 🤔

    YNWA 97
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,108MI6 Agent

    This is true, but this happened in January and the people who died were very old and fragile people (85+). Many vaccines for a number of illnesses have mild symptom in the days after the vaccinations. These people were to fragile to survive even these mild symptoms. It was decided not to vaccinate the weakest groups because of this. I suspect this would have happened with any of the corona vaccines.

  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,314Chief of Staff

    I fully agree...but it makes you wonder why these people were vaccinated IF there was a good chance they’d die from it 😳

    Thing is…it still happened and that vaccine wasn’t stopped and was still given to older patients...I’d be furious if that happened to my parents...

    YNWA 97
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent
    edited March 16

    "There are also cases of blood clots without vaccinations"

    • While that is true - those 7-10 cases have a very rare variant of brain clots - and that's significant!


    "There have also been XX cases of blood clots with Biontec/Pfizer"

    • While that's also true - those where not the rare and more severe variation of brain blood clots like with AZ.

    And in Germany - contrary to the UK - AZ is only used on younger people - so those cases on younger people are more alarming and they don't have such a high mortality rate with Covid - so temporarily suspending AZ bears not such a high risk in comparison.


    Like I have said - if I have the chance to receive an AZ shot by tomorrow - I'd get it and I am sure that the EU will work on the disclaimers and return to AZ in the coming days.

    But the recent events are a tough call - I applaud the total transparency and would not want to be in the position to decide wheter stopping AZ or go ahead with it with the recent discovered incidents.

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,108MI6 Agent

    Reply to Sir Miles:

    What happened is sad, but people older than 85 living in institution for theelderly were among the first corona vaccinations in Norway because they were the most at-risk group. It's tragic that lives were lost, but realistically many were close to deat anyway at the time. But like you I would have been crushed if one of the was a close relation. My grandparents were very close to me (I live in their house now and the place is full of memories) because every extra day is precious.

  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,314Chief of Staff

    It’s strange because blood clots with vaccinations are less than blood clots without in the general population...and it’s been proven - by Prof Andrew Pollard - that the AZ vaccine causes far less side-effects the older you are, the over-70’s having practically none 🤔

    YNWA 97
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent
    edited March 17

    please allow the Europeans to make their own decisions - in particular as the UK are desperate to vacccinate „regardless“ because of their catastrophic handling of the crisis so far

    So everything that comes from there is taken with a grain of salt - and rightly so!


    as you may well know , AZ is not used here with the older population and as I said


    • the recent incidents affect young people which is quite unusual
    • the recent incidents are not „ normal“ clotting or trombose - they are the rare brain clottings
    • 7 -10 cases in a couple of weeks is significantly more than the usual 50 cases/year
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent
    edited March 17

    Having said this, I am pretty sure that information and disclaimers will be reworked and probably potential risk groups for trombosis/strokes are getting excluded and AZ vaccinations will catch up after a short delay.


    imo it gives a good signal that every incident it being properly addressed - so that everybody can be sure that everything is being done to ensure safe vaccinations.


    perhaps we should fill the gap by using EU produced Biontec vaccination which is meant to go to the UK? 🤨

    Quote: I think it's a case of everyman for himself.

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 9,197MI6 Agent

    Here there are local elections in May so the Govt is doing everything it can to a) Rush through the vaccinations so they benefit at the polls from a 'bounce' and b) Delay any inquiry into its catastrophic handling of the pandemic and alright c) To vaccinate the population so it doesn't get Covid and if so doesn't spread it - fair enough.

    My understanding from the latest I've heard is that the German govt is delaying because it worries that if it does turn out someone can say they got a blood clot from this, the Govt can be sued.

    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent

    It‘s not only Germany - large parts of Europe have stopped with AZ.

    In the EU, the manufacturers bear the risk - by contract - but the states have a responsibility to make all vaccinations as safe as possible.

    It would be terrible if citizens worry getting a jab because vaccinating fast is higher priority than getting it safe.

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,314Chief of Staff

    In the UK you are asked to give your consent to have the vaccination, which will then mitigate any consequences...does this not happen in other countries?


    Higgins said - “perhaps we should fill the gap by using EU produced Biontec vaccination which is meant to go to the UK? 🤨”


    That would certainly be an option, but that can cause side effects too 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Also, why is Ursula von der Leyen complaining about the UK withholding the coronavirus vaccine when most of the EU are refusing to use it? What am I missing? 🤔

    YNWA 97
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,108MI6 Agent

    A member of parlament and former party leader who's been self-isolating for a year because of a pre-existing condition has cross-stitched the text "Bloody f*cking virus from hell!" on a wall in her home. 😂

  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent
    edited March 17

    The quotation function here is a disaster!


    Quote Sir Miles:

    Also, why is Ursula von der Leyen complaining about the UK withholding the coronavirus vaccine when most of the EU are refusing to use it? What am I missing? 🤔


    Easy: If we‘d keep all EU made vaccines for ourselfs - just like other countries so selflessly do, we would not be in that situation. EU is supplying the world with vaccine and we are basically the only ones in the West and constantly gets criticized and looked down by their neighbours for their „disasterous handling“ of the vaccination.

    The demonizing from the UK still goes on and is just a tool to deflect from the horrible handling of the crisis so far.


    And as I‘ve said, the EU will continue soon with AZ, so your question is just a rhetoric one without much substance - but you are a smart cookie and knew the answer already 😉

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent
    edited March 18

    Here a quite lengthy article about why Germany temporarily stopped AZ vaccinations:

    Paul Ehrlich Institute is the governmental institute responsible for everything vaccines.


    Basically they constantly run „expected-observed“ assessments.

    For AZ, a number of 1 was expected and the observation was 7 only in Germany.

    That is enough to raise a flag to them. So much for the „natural trombose danger“ argument or the nonsense that this is all politically morivated.

    What I learn from this is that this is far more complex than our shallow (and I include myself by shallow) discussion points. Medical scientists are that for a reason - they are usually much smarter than we are and they consider much more than what we do by looking at a number or event and cry out „foul“ or „ this is ridiculous“.

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent

    Here is a long and detailed article with the question why Germany temporarily stopped AZ vaccinations:


    Basically the PEI runs „observed-versus-expected analysis“ and in the case of AZ the expected number was 1 incident and the observed number was 7 or more.

    That was enough to pull a sign and AZ has been temporarily suspended.

    So much for all the „natural trombosis“ arguments or the „this is all political“ nonsense


    What do I learn from this:

    Medical scientists are obviously smarter than most of us and observe many more numbers and details than when we do. We should be careful crying out „foul“ or „ this is totally insane“ too quick because we all are only scratching the surface ( and I include myself).

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,314Chief of Staff

    Actually I genuinely wasn’t sure why Ursula was creating such a fuss about a drug that most of the EU had temporarily suspended 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Aren’t the EU just making the Pfizer variant? And didn’t the EU move too slow in placing orders for the vaccine?

    Yes, that question is just rhetorical 🤣 but it does have substance 😏


    Question to Higgins...who, exactly, are the UK demonising?

    I wholeheartedly agree that the UK Government have been an absolute shambles from the start...and I hope we haven’t heard the last of the PPE scandal either...but...you have to give credit to them for the handling of the vaccine rollout...👏🏻

    YNWA 97
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,314Chief of Staff

    The EMA has announced that the AZ vaccine is not associated with a higher risk of blood clots...although they will continue to study going forward...

    I wonder what Karl Lauterbach makes of that? 🤔🤣

    YNWA 97
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent
    edited March 18

    Well, I have heard the announcement live!

    EMA still recommends using AZ, because the benefit is much bigger than the potential harm.

    EMA also said, that a direct connection of AZ with the cases of brain trombosis is not clear but can‘t be ruled out.

    And a potential harm is an increased number of those brain trombosis - from which we had now 13 cases.

    EMA recommends to issuing a warning of the potential risks of those rare brain trombosis and inform all patients accordingly.

    This is what I have expected - also Karl Lauterbach (who is far smarter and better informed than me) and he never said anything else.

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,314Chief of Staff

    And the EMA says that none of those 13 CSVT’s can be linked to AZ vaccine 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Did your Mr Karl Lauterbach also say that? 👀🤔🤣

    YNWA 97
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,108MI6 Agent

    Dad got his first shot of the Pfizer vaccine today. Hurray! He ran into a former neighbour and classmate of mine who got the first shot earlier this week because of pure luck. The vaccination station had four vaccines left at the end of the day that had to be used then or thrown away the next day. She worked just accross the street, soo... 😊

    She said she had to stay in bed the next day due to side-effects, and she is middle aged and as far as I know she has no pre-existing conditions. Not surpriseing (but tragic) that very old people died because if this in January.

  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent
    edited March 18

    I know how you love to splitting hairs, Sir Miles.


    Lauterbach said, that 10 cases can be connected to AZ vaccination -yes.

    He also said, that there is no 100% evidence but the circumstances show a direct connection and because of that he‘s sure that those are directly connected to AZ.

    Apologies when I have shortened his statements earlier - it will turn out later that he was right - and EMA will confirm this at a later point of time!

    At the same time, Lauterbach endorsed AZ because the benefits outweight the risk and he also expressed his disagreement to temporarily suspend AZ in Germany and parts in Europe.

    He also said, that he‘d take an AZ jab any day and I am sure that he will when it‘s his turn.

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,108MI6 Agent

    The EU lets the AZ vaccinations continue, Norway doesn't, - at least not yet. I understand the EU calculates there will be more damage if people don't get the AZ vaccine than if they don’t. I guess that's cold, but correct.

  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,108MI6 Agent

    I guess the last word in the above post should be "true" instead of "correct"?

  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,437MI6 Agent

    Penicillin can be lethal to some people but I don't think anyone can deny it has been a miraculous in the amount of lives it saves and has saved, it's a shame that coronavirus vaccines have become political footballs for some. Last I heard which was yesterday the Oxford az had not been linked to the blood clots, and the whole "it's dangerous for the elderly" accusations have been debunked.

    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent
    edited March 18

    Actually, nobody said that AZ is dangerous for the elderly.

    It has been always pointed out, that there are not enough data for the use of AZ with elderly patients.


    Same applies AZ linked to blood clots.

    For days now, it‘s pinpointed that the rare brain bloodclots are observed more than expected.

    Normal bloodclots (which are less lethal and severe) there is no increase observed for the use of AZ - there is no dispute about that!

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,108MI6 Agent

    I think the 23 people at senior homes here in Norway who died in January after Pfizer vaccines were around a hundred years old and their health was frigile. I don't get the impression most old people have anything to fear from the vaccine.

  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,437MI6 Agent

    Dangerous as in it was stated to be "quasi effective" for people over 65 and therefore the danger lies in vaccinated people still having high risk of contracting covid.

    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent
    edited March 18

    How long are you intending to ride on that genuine mistake by Guardian/Handelsblatt which has been corrected and communicated clearly after a couple of hours?


    Your accusation was „it's dangerous for the elderly" accusations have been debunked.“ and not the hesitance of older people getting vaccinated because of that wrong information.

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,407MI6 Agent

    Germany will be picking up vaccinating AZ from tomorrow and so do many European States.

    Information material will be amended and the potential risk of the rare brain blood clotting will be communicated in the disclaimers.

    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
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