Coronavirus

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  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 31,552Chief of Staff
  • ShatterfangShatterfang Posts: 533MI6 Agent
    edited March 2020
    USA has higher population to account for higher cases than Germany, Mr. Higgins. Divide the number of cases by the area's population. USA: 300 million / 7,500 cases. Germany: 80 million / 12,000. So almost double the cases with 1/4 the population. USA also has lower population density overall, with 3 overpopulated states making up 90% of the cases (Washington, NY, Cali).

    People in their basement on youtube were calling this a pandemic back in january and they got mocked, called doomsday preppers. Merkel looking like Violet Bouregard, the girl who turned into the fat blueberry on Willy Wonka. She held open the flood gates. All these world leaders are coming out of the woodwork to save face months after they let the virus into their countries. Now they are telling people not to buy more than a week worth of food. Good luck with that. Fortunately I have a freezer full of dead animals so I didn't have to prepare at all, but even I bought $300 of non perishables 2 months ago.

    Here is the last 5 daily reports in my state: 26 cases, 39, 59, 73, 98. Despite more government intervention it doubles every 2 days. Should've shut down the schools, borders, etc, months ago. Too little too late. People in Wuhan dropping like flies and nobody cares until it hits home.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,408MI6 Agent

    ....

    Well, there are so many simplifications, shallowness and lack of knowledge, not sure if I should reply at all


    USA has higher population to account for higher cases than Germany, Mr. Higgins.

    Who‘d have thought this!

    Divide the number of cases by the area's population. USA: 300 million / 7,500 cases. Germany: 80 million / 12,000. So almost double the cases with 1/4 the population. USA also has lower population density overall, with 3 overpopulated states making up 90% of the cases (Washington, NY, Cali).


    Ever wondered, if the numbers in the US (in total/compared to population) are a result of the lack of testing and testing kits?
    It certainly is not as simple as you imply and Trump said some days ago, that his main goal was not to get the numbers up when the situation arose in the cruiseship.

    We could speculate, how many undetected Corona cases are in the US „under the radar“ and that number should make you uncomfortable.
    Merkel looking like Violet Bouregard, the girl who turned into the fat blueberry on Willy Wonka.

    Right on the spot I have many unflattering Willy Wonka comparisons for the leaders of the UK and US in mind, but this should be not a topic in a political discussion. Unless you are avoiding it with such tangents.

    Ever wondered why Trump ignored and downplayed the threat and kept the borders open with little exceptions?
    She held open the flood gates. All these world leaders are coming out of the woodwork to save face months after they let the virus into their countries. Now they are telling people not to buy more than a week worth of food. Good luck with that. Fortunately I have a freezer full of dead animals so I didn't have to prepare at all, but even I bought $300 of non perishables 2 months ago.

    Great for you! Hope that you have been considerate to the elder lady who was after you in the supermarket and needed to buy something with her little pension.


    Here is the last 5 daily reports in my state: 26 cases, 39, 59, 73, 98. Despite more government intervention it doubles every 2 days. Should've shut down the schools, borders, etc, months ago. Too little too late. People in Wuhan dropping like flies and nobody cares until it hits home.

    That just shows, how shallow your knowledge about pandemics is.
    This virus does not stop at borders and border controls and we just see how difficult it is to lock up free societies.

    To us, it was clear since January, that the Virus would come to us.
    And our leaders have kept us informed and informed us competently and Honestly.
    The current measures and their timing are to avoid overload of our hospitals in the next 14 days And you could know that, if you‘d read a bit on the topic.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,408MI6 Agent
    edited March 2020
    Just to add to the „Closing borders“ argument.

    Trump is constantly chestbeating that he has stopped flights from China early.

    So,

    - chinese tourists came by plane via Dubai, Canada, South America the UK and Europe and so on.
    - Chinese Tourists still came in on cruiseships and via the open border in Canada.
    - Many rich Chinese simply bought US citizenships in the last years for themselfs and their families by investing a minimum amount of $ in the US. *
    So legally they are US citizens and you could not stop them on the border on their way back from China.

    Just shows, that the topic is far more complex than a simple and Populist measure.

    * just google EB5 Visa
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Mr MartiniMr Martini That nice house in the sky.Posts: 2,681MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    Corona is more serious than we thought. European Song Contest 2020 won't happen :))

    I don’t see the problem... ;)

    But guys, I‘m genuinely curious about how this situation is in your respective area: Like the rest of Germany, we‘re strongly advised to reduce social contacts and going out to the absolute minimum here around Munich.

    Yet still, there are plenty of people wo still sit at the Isar-banks drinking wine or in the english garden eating ice cream in large gatherings like nothing is going on atm. Quite some people even call Corona a hoax and are very frank about not giving a sh!t about it.

    Is this dumb ignorance a local or a global phenomenon?

    Curious about your experiences.

    I live in San Mateo, CA in the San Francisco Bay Area. As of Tuesday and Wednesday, all nine Bay Area counties are implementing a "shelter in place" Only people who are considered essential workers should be traveling on the roadway. All non-essential business are to close. You are allowed to go for walks and make trips to the grocery store and pharmacy (both considered essential businesses) but respect social distancing which is a space of 6 feet between people. I've seen many police on the road. They aren't really enforcing from what I can tell, just making their presence known. From our news broadcasts (also considered essential workers) they are showing most people are respecting the shelter in place order. Restaurants are staying open, but for delivery and take out only, unless they can keep people seated more than 6 feet apart. Most can't do this, so its pick up and delivery only. So far, lots oof restaurants are losing business because of this. Theres also something else in the shelter in place order about no more than 50 people in a space at once. Not exactly sure how that works are what the size of the business can be to allow more than 50 people in. Basically, stores have to control the flow of people in so it doesn't get overcrowded. I'm sure theres more that I'm missing.
    Some people would complain even if you hang them with a new rope
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:

    ....

    Well, there are so many simplifications, shallowness and lack of knowledge, not sure if I should reply at all


    USA has higher population to account for higher cases than Germany, Mr. Higgins.

    Who‘d have thought this!

    Divide the number of cases by the area's population. USA: 300 million / 7,500 cases. Germany: 80 million / 12,000. So almost double the cases with 1/4 the population. USA also has lower population density overall, with 3 overpopulated states making up 90% of the cases (Washington, NY, Cali).


    Ever wondered, if the numbers in the US (in total/compared to population) are a result of the lack of testing and testing kits?
    It certainly is not as simple as you imply and Trump said some days ago, that his main goal was not to get the numbers up when the situation arose in the cruiseship.

    We could speculate, how many undetected Corona cases are in the US „under the radar“ and that number should make you uncomfortable.
    Merkel looking like Violet Bouregard, the girl who turned into the fat blueberry on Willy Wonka.

    Right on the spot I have many unflattering Willy Wonka comparisons for the leaders of the UK and US in mind, but this should be not a topic in a political discussion. Unless you are avoiding it with such tangents.

    Ever wondered why Trump ignored and downplayed the threat and kept the borders open with little exceptions?
    She held open the flood gates. All these world leaders are coming out of the woodwork to save face months after they let the virus into their countries. Now they are telling people not to buy more than a week worth of food. Good luck with that. Fortunately I have a freezer full of dead animals so I didn't have to prepare at all, but even I bought $300 of non perishables 2 months ago.

    Great for you! Hope that you have been considerate to the elder lady who was after you in the supermarket and needed to buy something with her little pension.


    Here is the last 5 daily reports in my state: 26 cases, 39, 59, 73, 98. Despite more government intervention it doubles every 2 days. Should've shut down the schools, borders, etc, months ago. Too little too late. People in Wuhan dropping like flies and nobody cares until it hits home.


    This virus does not stop at borders and border controls and we just see how difficult it is to lock up free societies.

    If borders are closed before the virus has come into the country or at least the number of infected is so low they can be found and quarantined it can work. There are a lot of things that can go wrong. Later than that closed borders can perhaps slow the virus, but often it's a case of "closing the stable gate after the horse has bolted".
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    The good news is that the Nordic countries have practised social distancing for decades! :D

    main-qimg-0b97a77299604e81a7a7025bf1c74342-c
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,408MI6 Agent
    edited March 2020
    Number24 wrote:
    If borders are closed before the virus has come into the country or at least the number of infected is so low they can be found and quarantined it can work. There are a lot of things that can go wrong. Later than that closed borders can perhaps slow the virus, but often it's a case of "closing the stable gate after the horse has bolted".

    A counterexample would be North Korea.
    They for sure have closed borders and unofficial reports state that the virus is in the country and spreading.

    I gave you counterexamples why even with closed borders US citizens can import the virus and I doubt that you can completely seal off an entire country like the US.
    It simply doesnt work!

    In the end, you have rigurously locked down borders for weeks, locked up your citizens for weeks, shot your entire economy down and the virus is still in your country because the virus does not stop at the border.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,408MI6 Agent
    I am reading that over 50% of the norwegian Corona cases state that they have been infected in a ski resort in Ischgl, Austria.

    In a disco there was an infected barkeeper, who was working when he was showing symtoms and he probably infected thousands of international guests.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    Norway has a large number of infected, but so far the number of seriously ill and or dead. The school holliday in week 8 or 9 is an important reason. Many visited the Alps and got infected in northern Italy and Austria.

    We should all move to the glorious Democratic People's Republic of Korea, because the authorities there are reporting zero infected! :))
  • Mr MartiniMr Martini That nice house in the sky.Posts: 2,681MI6 Agent
    Mr Martini wrote:
    Number24 wrote:
    Corona is more serious than we thought. European Song Contest 2020 won't happen :))

    I don’t see the problem... ;)

    But guys, I‘m genuinely curious about how this situation is in your respective area: Like the rest of Germany, we‘re strongly advised to reduce social contacts and going out to the absolute minimum here around Munich.

    Yet still, there are plenty of people wo still sit at the Isar-banks drinking wine or in the english garden eating ice cream in large gatherings like nothing is going on atm. Quite some people even call Corona a hoax and are very frank about not giving a sh!t about it.

    Is this dumb ignorance a local or a global phenomenon?

    Curious about your experiences.

    I live in San Mateo, CA in the San Francisco Bay Area. As of Tuesday and Wednesday, all nine Bay Area counties are implementing a "shelter in place" Only people who are considered essential workers should be traveling on the roadway. All non-essential business are to close. You are allowed to go for walks and make trips to the grocery store and pharmacy (both considered essential businesses) but respect social distancing which is a space of 6 feet between people. I've seen many police on the road. They aren't really enforcing from what I can tell, just making their presence known. From our news broadcasts (also considered essential workers) they are showing most people are respecting the shelter in place order. Restaurants are staying open, but for delivery and take out only, unless they can keep people seated more than 6 feet apart. Most can't do this, so its pick up and delivery only. So far, lots oof restaurants are losing business because of this. Theres also something else in the shelter in place order about no more than 50 people in a space at once. Not exactly sure how that works are what the size of the business can be to allow more than 50 people in. Basically, stores have to control the flow of people in so it doesn't get overcrowded. I'm sure theres more that I'm missing.

    For this interested, the link below has the full order from my County:

    https://www.smcgov.org/sites/smcgov.org/files/HO%20Order%20Shelter%20in%20Place%2020200316.pdf
    Some people would complain even if you hang them with a new rope
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 859MI6 Agent
    edited March 2020
    Joshua wrote:
    0073 wrote:
    Joshua wrote:
    If the duties of speaking to a few hundred people on the internet satisfies the individual that he or she is actively contributing against the effects of the virus then I am not going to argue. Perhaps the individual should consider extending the activism into their own communities by reaching out to people (who do not have the internet) and offering them practical assistance.

    Would you call government crisis management "contributing against the effects of the virus" or "practical assistance"?
    Joshua wrote:

    0073. Am I to take it that you are directly involved in government crisis management and/or you are a first responder or health official? Is that your own contribution to the crisis? I am greatly interested to hear and look forward to you clarifying this for me.

    If you are part of your government response or the health services then I will be the first to apologise for causing you some offence because what you are doing is indeed very important. I also thank you sincerely for allowing me the privilege of ‘believing what I want’ and of course it goes without saying that I defend your right to ‘believe what you want’.

    However, if you are just a medical/scientific layperson who has taken to the internet to ‘protest’ against disinformation, could you please explain how many lives you propose to save as a result? I’m minded to believe that most people who are vulnerable to this virus will not read AJB or other internet forums.

    Please, seeing as you appear to take exception to my own efforts, could you enlighten me as to what is so bad about actually going out into the community to help the vulnerable? Also please enlighten me as to the benefits of politicising the effects of the virus? Helping to halt the spread of fake news I can understand, but at this stage who is to say what is fake or not in the first place? I may be wrong but it appears to me that here it is a matter of personal (and it seems political) opinion rather sound medical knowledge which is driving certain posters output here. I also most respectfully suggest that sights can be set in this instance to a shorter range to identify those in need within communities, people who need action of the basic kind not words on internet forums? The political blame game can come when the full facts emerge. Until then people are taking a grain of salt and adding to it to make a cup and in so doing creating their own ‘fake news’. Even the best intentioned – unless they are at the very centre of the health organisations – cannot seriously believe they know what is happening with this virus and expect other people to listen to their advice.
    What about the efforts of the first responders and health officials?

    You can of course believe what you want, but the current crisis the entire population of the world is facing, will not be resolved with bovine excrement and warm and fluffy feelings, but with hard measures and proven science.

    If this pandemic were just a matter of belief, it could be resolved with a song and a prayer!

    I just BURN UP!! With all the false information that is spread in the interwebs. Every single piece of factually incorrect rumor that is spread around puts someone in potential mortal danger!

    0073. Am I to take it that you are directly involved in government crisis management and/or you are a first responder or health official? Is that your own contribution to the crisis? I am greatly interested to hear and look forward to you clarifying this for me.

    Yes I am, my current duties include, but is not limited to, making plans for securing pharmaceutical logistics if things get much worse. So you understand that I have very little sympathy for hoarders. We may make all the toilet paper jokes we want, but it is serious business in the heart of it.

    It's nothing personal, it may just be my own frustration boiling over because of the unforgivable lack of speed in the government decision making, in which false information and false hopes and rumors were a big part to blame. Be that as it may, but for me to say that "you may believe what ever you want", was kinda sorta passive aggressive, and I apologise for that.

    Without going to specifics, quite a lot of these falsehoods originate in the same places that are already known for their willingness to sow discord in western democracies.

    I do understand that a lot of people hope to do good and contribute to their own communities. This is almost always recommendable, but this is not your garden variety seasonal flu. You, or anybody else on this forum might not be the most vulnerable to this virus, but with sound scientific evidence of 14 days incubation period during which you are most likely to both spread it and symptomless, I discourage you most strongly to not to go to the most vulnerable, try to do good in other ways.

    Also: there is an abundance of scientific data about this "Novel Coronavirus". It is one of those falsehoods to say that we don't know, we do, we know how to slow it down and how "to flatten the curve". Anybody who says otherwise is plain wrong. It has killed enough people already. We have plenty of autopsy reports to know how it kills, we have socio-economic data on the victims, we have some idea about how spreads and how fast. Believe me, you might not be "the most vulnerable", but you and me and everybody on AJB is a potential victim, this sucker is a killer, not quite Ebola, but a killer never the less: "ECDC estimates that between 15 000 and 75 000 people die prematurely due to causes associated with seasonal influenza each year in the EU, the UK, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. This is approximately 1 in every 1 000 people who are infected. By comparison, the current estimated mortality rate for COVID-19 is 20-30 per 1 000 people.
    Despite the relatively low mortality rate for seasonal influenza, many people die from the disease due to the large number of people who contract it each year. The concern about COVID-19 is that, unlike influenza, there is no vaccine and no specific treatment for the disease. It also appears to be as transmissible as influenza if not more so. As it is a new virus, nobody has prior immunity which in theory means that the entire human population is potentially susceptible to COVID-19 infection"
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    Thank you for the work you are doing.

    Did you see my post 158 on this thread? As a (probably) sober Finn, do you agree? :D
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,408MI6 Agent
    edited March 2020
    There is no such thing - a sober Finn :))

    At least I have never seen one
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    I was being nice ;)
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 859MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    Thank you for the work you are doing.

    Did you see my post 158 on this thread? As a (probably) sober Finn, do you agree? :D

    Yesh I do agree. {[] Also, statistical data shows, that Finns drink..... oh crap, you're not going to believe me anyways! I'll get a beer, it's been a loooong day already!
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,408MI6 Agent
    N24 was spreading hoaxes again - about Finns... :D
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HardyboyHardyboy Posts: 5,781Chief of Staff
    My town, which has had only ONE reported coronavirus case, has really gone draconian--not only gyms, movie theaters and malls closed, but any open stores are allowed to have only TEN people in them at a time. Even backyard barbecues are limited to ten people. Cops will be patrolling for this, and violators are subject to fines that could go up into the thousands of dollars. Never lose an opportunity to make some money for the city. . .
    Vox clamantis in deserto
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 859MI6 Agent
    edited March 2020
    In Finland they say that no more than 10 people should gather together, but currently there are no plans on fining anybody.
    Although there was a message circulated in the social media that there were too many kids playing at the local soccerfield.
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    Two boys who I used to know were called "mountain apes" by a Danish newspaper when they were only about threteen years old.
    When some people reacted the journalists replied: "It's just a term we use for Norwegians. I'm sure have a simmular expression about us".
    No, we don't. We have manners instead X-( .

    I'm glad this thread hasn't gone off-topic …...
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    Italy now has 3405 dead from Corona, more than China at 3249. Of course Chinese media only writes what they are told to write, but I still think it's worth mentioning.
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,020MI6 Agent
    0073. Thank you for your reply and it has cleared things up for me. As N24 says, thank you for your efforts.

    I would like to clarify a few things though which appear to be confused. We as a church with the other people who are involved, will be taking all precautions as directed by the medical officials, during our efforts to make sure the vulnerable are kept supplied with food, etc for the duration of this crisis. We have not rushed in to this blindly, as we have a long experience of dealing with medically frail people. As it stands ALL contacts are made by telephone NEVER face to face. If shopping is delivered then it is left on the doorstep, there is again no personal contact, just to ring the doorbell to make sure the person knows the supplies are there. We wear gloves when handling foods stuff and while holding the bags. We advise the person to wear gloves when taking in the food so they can not pick up the virus from the handles of the bags etc. I consider what we do is ‘more safe’ than when these people have medicines delivered to their door by the chemist or handling a letter that has been posted and in the hands of sorters and postmen.

    Gardening and odd jobs: That is done the same way. It has always been the procedure that we never go into peoples homes anyway. We maintain a large distance at all times now.
    The alternative? There is not one. If we weren’t doing this duty then many people in our community would be unable to get food or other supplies, it is as simple as that. Do we carry on and help in the knowledge that there is a possibility that, despite our precautions, we may transmit the disease or do we leave these people shut up behind closed doors without any help at all? It is a balancing act and I already know the answer.

    At the bottom rung of this crisis there are many people who have no body to turn to. These people are invisible in their communities. Without help from organisations and charities, they will be left to wither.

    Thank you.
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,020MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    Italy now has 3405 dead from Corona, more than China at 3249. Of course Chinese media only writes what they are told to write, but I still think it's worth mentioning.

    Never trust the Chinese.
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,020MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    The good news is that the Nordic countries have practised social distancing for decades! :D

    main-qimg-0b97a77299604e81a7a7025bf1c74342-c

    N24. Given the distance between people, when there are many people waiting to catch the bus, do those at the end of the line ever find that by queing this way, they are already at their destination?!
  • Charmed & DangerousCharmed & Dangerous Posts: 7,218MI6 Agent
    :)) :)) :))
    "How was your lamb?" "Skewered. One sympathises."
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    I think the bus drivers are considerate. My friend who also was my neighbour never left home until the bus was supposed to leave. He usually ran to the bus, but also used his bicycle or tractor. He ate his breakfast in the bus. But the bus driver always waited of for him, bless his heart. My friend's parents bought flavours, and rightly so. That man saved my friend's aducation. :))
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 25,319Chief of Staff
    Higgins wrote:
    Sir Miles wrote:

    It’s NOT fake news...and 20,000 deaths is a conservative estimate...I work for the NHS and the figures being mentioned are FAR in excess of that...
    8-)

    Are you having any numbers for Germany?
    And what is the consensus in the NHS?
    Has valuable time being lost because the leaders basically ignored it until last week and believed too long in Patrick Vallance‘s herd immunity theory?

    Alas no numbers for Germany - we are only given ballpark figures for the UK...and they are quite sobering…and well above 20,000 :#

    The consensus within the NHS is that the worst is yet to come…

    Time is STILL being lost…the government has refused (so far) to close pubs/restaurants/theatres/gyms and other nonessential businesses down - this stops them claiming on their insurance…for some reason the government are protecting the insurance companies - or putting them above working people.
    Traffic on the roads has dropped considerably and it’s getting to about a quarter of the workforce (where I work) that are self-isolating already.
    YNWA 97
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    Of course working people work in restaurants, pubs etc. too. In a country without a strong welfare state the economic effects of closing places like that are very serious. That kind of establishments are often small businesses that can't afford being closed for a long time. It's very hard to find the right balance between stopping the virus and stopping the economy.
  • HardyboyHardyboy Posts: 5,781Chief of Staff
    The university where I teach has done the inevitable--all classes will now be online. My online and real-world identities are starting to merge. . .
    Vox clamantis in deserto
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 18,142MI6 Agent
    What do you teach, if I may ask?
This discussion has been closed.