Military Service

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  • Bond44Bond44 Vauxhall CrossPosts: 1,581MI6 Agent
    0073 wrote:
    In Finland, there are plenty of opportunities for conscientious objectors: 1) an un-armed military service; depending on what you do, it is either 255 days or 347 days and doesn't include any armed military instruction. 2) civilian service, it is what it is, non military service 347 days. 3) Jehovas witnesses and people from Åland are exempt from any service, if they so choose. 4) if your objection is with the idea of duty to your homeland, then you will serve 173 day prison term.

    Anyways; I have no objection with the idea, that not everybody serves in the military, I have seen plenty of people who were not mentally fit for military service, and there they were! Always made me feel uneasy to see these folks with weapons.... :#
    This is why most soldiers in standing regular or volunteer armies do not condone national service (and possibly conscription - a volunteer is worth 10 pressed men and all that). In conflict you want the guys either side of you to have volunteered the same as you rather than having been pressed in some way. You have all freely chosen to be where you are and so know their motivation is the same - trust is essential.

    I have worked with conscript armies and you can see the motivation (or lack of in some cases) is visibly different That is not meant in any way as a disrespectful comment to any such armies, just what I have personally witnessed and I am sure it does not apply to all.

    Many in the UK say the youth of today is bad or broken, we should bring back national service (once again expecting the military to fix societies problems) however over 10 years on Ops in two theatres of operations has taught us differently. Those youngsters who joined in that period were truly committed, knew they were likely to go on tour (maybe several times and places) and still joined and delivered the goods, some paying the ultimate price. Full credit to them all, but that takes a certain something.

    Training plays it’s part and as Joshua highlights sometimes it’s robust to test you (I hope more than mock you), but it also teaches you that you can do so much more with the right motivation. A ‘can do’ attitude even in the most stressful situations can come out on top as history shows us in many conflicts.

    Cheers :007)
    My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
  • Bond44Bond44 Vauxhall CrossPosts: 1,581MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    In Norway we have/had religious conscientious objectors, but also non-religious objectors. They are interviewed and asked about various ethical questions. The most important one goes something like this: "Say if a man attacked your family and was about to kill your family. If no other solutions were available (talking him out of it, call the police etc) and you had a hammer, would you kill the man?"
    If the young man in the interview said he wouldn't kill even in that situation, ha was exempt from military service. But if he replied that he would kill in that situation, but not take part in organized war, you could end up in jail.
    After 9/11 things moved very swiftly and resulted in the Invasion of Iraq 10 years after Kuwait (and an increased commitment in Afghanistan) But I only heard of on guy in my unit who objected. He had joined during the Cold War to sit in a trench in Germany and fight the Russians that never came. The prospect of going to Middle East again (post Kuwait having witnessed the aftermath of the Road to Basra) was not for him and he left. No one blamed him, he had done his bit, had a family and could not face it, that as a brave descision in itself.

    I think there were a few others across the forces but that as it. Society felt a little differently especially about Iraq, but then no soldier decides the field of combat that’s down to the politicians (any armed force is just the kinetic front end of its government policy).

    Cheers :007)
    My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,620MI6 Agent
    Bond44 wrote:
    0073 wrote:
    In Finland, there are plenty of opportunities for conscientious objectors: 1) an un-armed military service; depending on what you do, it is either 255 days or 347 days and doesn't include any armed military instruction. 2) civilian service, it is what it is, non military service 347 days. 3) Jehovas witnesses and people from Åland are exempt from any service, if they so choose. 4) if your objection is with the idea of duty to your homeland, then you will serve 173 day prison term.

    Anyways; I have no objection with the idea, that not everybody serves in the military, I have seen plenty of people who were not mentally fit for military service, and there they were! Always made me feel uneasy to see these folks with weapons.... :#
    This is why most soldiers in standing regular or volunteer armies do not condone national service (and possibly conscription - a volunteer is worth 10 pressed men and all that). In conflict you want the guys either side of you to have volunteered the same as you rather than having been pressed in some way. You have all freely chosen to be where you are and so know their motivation is the same - trust is essential.

    I have worked with conscript armies and you can see the motivation (or lack of in some cases) is visibly different That is not meant in any way as a disrespectful comment to any such armies, just what I have personally witnessed and I am sure it does not apply to all.

    Many in the UK say the youth of today is bad or broken, we should bring back national service (once again expecting the military to fix societies problems) however over 10 years on Ops in two theatres of operations has taught us differently. Those youngsters who joined in that period were truly committed, knew they were likely to go on tour (maybe several times and places) and still joined and delivered the goods, some paying the ultimate price. Full credit to them all, but that takes a certain something.

    Training plays it’s part and as Joshua highlights sometimes it’s robust to test you (I hope more than mock you), but it also teaches you that you can do so much more with the right motivation. A ‘can do’ attitude even in the most stressful situations can come out on top as history shows us in many conflicts.

    Cheers :007)

    I very much doubt one professional soldier is worth ten conscripts. It depends on the attitude towards national service in society and the qualification of the training, of course. There must be conscripts armies that aren't worth much in war, but we have to remember that Finland had a conscript army in the winter war and WWII and Israel's IDF is based on consumption.

    Interesting fact: Sweden decided to make their military professional around 2002, but recently brought back conscription. They simple couldn't find enough volunteers. If a small to medium sized country wants an army that has some chance of defending the country, national service is a must IMO. National service is also very good way to find recruits for the professional units.
  • Bond44Bond44 Vauxhall CrossPosts: 1,581MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    Bond44 wrote:
    0073 wrote:
    In Finland, there are plenty of opportunities for conscientious objectors: 1) an un-armed military service; depending on what you do, it is either 255 days or 347 days and doesn't include any armed military instruction. 2) civilian service, it is what it is, non military service 347 days. 3) Jehovas witnesses and people from Åland are exempt from any service, if they so choose. 4) if your objection is with the idea of duty to your homeland, then you will serve 173 day prison term.

    Anyways; I have no objection with the idea, that not everybody serves in the military, I have seen plenty of people who were not mentally fit for military service, and there they were! Always made me feel uneasy to see these folks with weapons.... :#
    This is why most soldiers in standing regular or volunteer armies do not condone national service (and possibly conscription - a volunteer is worth 10 pressed men and all that). In conflict you want the guys either side of you to have volunteered the same as you rather than having been pressed in some way. You have all freely chosen to be where you are and so know their motivation is the same - trust is essential.

    I have worked with conscript armies and you can see the motivation (or lack of in some cases) is visibly different That is not meant in any way as a disrespectful comment to any such armies, just what I have personally witnessed and I am sure it does not apply to all.

    Many in the UK say the youth of today is bad or broken, we should bring back national service (once again expecting the military to fix societies problems) however over 10 years on Ops in two theatres of operations has taught us differently. Those youngsters who joined in that period were truly committed, knew they were likely to go on tour (maybe several times and places) and still joined and delivered the goods, some paying the ultimate price. Full credit to them all, but that takes a certain something.

    Training plays it’s part and as Joshua highlights sometimes it’s robust to test you (I hope more than mock you), but it also teaches you that you can do so much more with the right motivation. A ‘can do’ attitude even in the most stressful situations can come out on top as history shows us in many conflicts.

    Cheers :007)

    I very much doubt one professional soldier is worth ten conscripts. It depends on the attitude towards national service in society and the qualification of the training, of course. There must be conscripts armies that aren't worth much in war, but we have to remember that Finland had a conscript army in the winter war and WWII and Israel's IDF is based on consumption.

    Interesting fact: Sweden decided to make their military professional around 2002, but recently brought back conscription. They simple couldn't find enough volunteers. If a small to medium sized country wants an army that has some chance of defending the country, national service is a must IMO. National service is also very good way to find recruits for the professional units.

    Slightly different perspective in that I said one ‘Volunteer’ vs pressed men when you mentioned Professional soldier vs Conscript. You get Professional soldiers in all Armies and all parts, Regular, Reserve, National Service or Conscript. Like I said my comment was based on personal experience and not meant as derogatory or judgemental to any other army. As you say (and I don’t disagree) each country and it’s Armed Forces is different and has its own driving factors. In the current climate many Armies suffer in terms of numbers (though some World Players obviously don’t! think BRICS countries), this can be due to low unemployment, male vs female demographics and many other factors. It’s a sign of the times and probably a lack of appetite in societies due to conflicts past which is understandable.

    Each to their own I say it’s they way it’s always been :D

    Cheers :007)
    My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,620MI6 Agent
    An important point is that more military jobs today require a higher level of training than usual some decades ago.
    Examples may be operators of ground-to-air missile systems or most special forces. The combat engineer battalion I served in back in 91-92 had very few "specialists" and heavy lifting by many men was a large part of the job. Now the battalion has much more vehicles and technical equipment, and even snipers and divers.
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,138MI6 Agent
    In the army of my country (and the air force also) there is in law the conscription for military service but in real life there is never no conscription. There is no need to register for national service. I think this would only happen in the times of war. All military are volunteers.

    Also when I was speaking about jumping from the cliff, the training corporals did not do these things to mock but to test the soldier. Much of the training for my regiment was to test not only the fitness but also the character of the recruit. To test by swimming in rivers in which the crocodile lives is one of the tests there was also many more to make sure that only the soldiers who were able to do the challenge was awarded the beret. I was much scared on many times in the training as it was some times very dangerous. I think that to make the recruit see what are the fears that he can beat is always good training not just for military service but also in the rest of life.


    As with special equipment as number24 says, in my regiment although we were known to be well equipped better than other armies, much of the equipment was many times very old and the real skill was keeping it working! we did not rely on much complicated equipment, perhaps much of this was not suitable for the very harsh condition of the bush.
  • brintmanbrintman Posts: 19MI6 Agent
    I have respect for you too Joshua.You were in Special Forces I presume.I never served in those kind of units,but on call up was directed to a special training battalion.One of two in the British army when I joined.Formed in 1945 and discontinued in 1947.One was based in Northern Ireland,the other,in which I trained,at Derby in the English midlands.Not sure of the idea behind them,but was unusual in that trainees were from different regiments of the British army.
    One thing you may have an idea on.Special forces,apart from being trained to kill,were conditioned to kill.That I would say,is one e lement that set them apart.Am I correct?
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,138MI6 Agent
    edited February 2018
    Thankyou Mr Brintman. I was in the commando regiment. This was called the special forces. There was also the parachute regiment which was the other special forces regiment. But I think it was not like special forces of the many armies of the west like the SAS. We were trained in many things but I think my regiment was more like the commando regiment that the people of the west would know and not the SAS and the parachute regiment was also perhaps more like the parachute regiments of the west armies.
    I apologise because english is not my first language and I do not underststand really what you say about being conditioned to kill? If I think it is what you mean. We were trained to kill with any thing we would have. We would always shoot not fight any body with the knifes or fists. But if we had no ammuniton then we would use the rifle to club or with the bayonet. If we had no rifle we would use the bayonet or any thing else like a rock or even a fallen branch. if we did not have any of them then we would use our fists and our feet. We were taut to fight with such things if we had no rifles. i do not think we were taut to kill any more than any other soldier but perhaps were taut just to be able to do this with not only rifles or bayonets? Speaking only for my self I come from a warrior tribe who is very aggressive men who are known for to fight as warriors so i aggression is already there. I think the training made me (i dont know the word in english) is to be disiplined i think. I do not think my regiment was made to be the killer any more than any body else. It is just that we trained very hard because of our job in the war time would be different to the general duties soldier of the infantry and we would be fighting behind the enemy lines or in enemy lands.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 SwitzerlandPosts: 870MI6 Agent
    Joshua, it sounds a bit like our Grenadiers, it's special forces and we have the para-scout unit next to it which is based on Grenadier training as well.

    Grenadiers are trained in hand-to-hand combat, based on Krav Maga and also with a variety of weapons. Grenadiers get trained in many things really. It's the elite of the Swiss Army.

    Being a soldier is always about killing too obviously. But what you said I can relate to. Discipline is something I learned too early on and has become one of my best developed strengths.

    I'm a para-scout and of course go behind enemy lines.
    Dalton Rulez™
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,620MI6 Agent
    Isn't the Mountain infantry (gebirgsjeger) the largest elite unit in Switzerland, even a large part of the army?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Nothing wrong with a bit of discipline occasionally Jason ..... Just so
    long as you agree on a safe word ! ;) :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 SwitzerlandPosts: 870MI6 Agent
    I guess I have to be careful with the term ELITE. I'm sure our air force pilots would call themselves elite as well.
    And yes, our alpine troops (Gebirgstruppen) make a big part of our armed forces, naturally. There are several kinds of them but none is special forces.

    Special Forces in the Swiss Army are:
    -Grenadiers.
    -Parachute Reconnaissance Company 17 (para-scouts, that's what I am).
    -Army Reconnaissance Detachment 10 (AAD10).
    -Military Police Special Detachment.


    We specialize in urban warfare, guerrilla warfare, anti-terrorist operations, commando tactics, sniper missions, hand-to-hand combat, and other special operations.

    By the way, my buddy @Andi1996 has started with his 52 week training as an AAD10. That's like the British SAS or the German GSG9.
    Dalton Rulez™
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,620MI6 Agent
    It surprises me how public you are about his training. The identity of members of such units is often classified. In Norway only the commanders show their faces or reveal their full names in public.
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,138MI6 Agent
    Hello BondJasonBond006

    Yes the things you say here "We specialize in urban warfare, guerrilla warfare, anti-terrorist operations, commando tactics, sniper missions, hand-to-hand combat, and other special operations." is much like the job of my regiment. We also did lot of work on the boats and canoes and swimming, and operate many times with the boat squadron. This is why much training was done in the water. We also did the reconnaissance and the tracking and mountain climbing. If we went into operation to attack a target on the exercise we would never parachute. Only a few commandos were trained to parachute. We would go by helicopter or boat or canoe but many times walk to the target over days if the transport was not there to be used.
    But I must say that I would have to be in the regiment for much longer than I served to do all this training. My specialism was radio signals and explosives demolitions. I did train in most the other things but not as the specialist only general training. In the unarmed combat it was not like the kung fu, it was instead how to kill or very much hurt or break bones with close up and quickly. How to take knives or guns from the enemy or get from someone who was holding you and then attack them I never used this skill for real only in training. I think the only time the commandos would fight with unarmed combat for real but with the fists and not the unarmed combat was with each other!
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 SwitzerlandPosts: 870MI6 Agent
    Andi1996's identity, real full name, etc. is nowhere on the internet @Number24
    He is very careful and rightfully so. His two social media accounts are resting as well since many months.
    Dalton Rulez™
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 SwitzerlandPosts: 870MI6 Agent
    Joshua

    I exceeded 950 days of active service by 2011.
    I got a nice ribbon for it for my uniform :)

    I became a full-time army officer a year ago, finally.

    As we have a Navy (11 army speed boats) we have worked with them too, but of course that's nothing compared to what you have done. Switzerland has big lakes, that's all.

    As para-scouts though we have to go through rivers with all our gear. Stripping down to our briefs and then everything on our shoulders or in front of us swimming, or walking if it is possible.

    I'm 43 now and very glad I don't have to do that anymore, I did it still last year. I'm very fit, naturally. Otherwise it wouldn't have been possible.
    Dalton Rulez™
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,620MI6 Agent
    Andi1996's identity, real full name, etc. is nowhere on the internet @Number24
    He is very careful and rightfully so. His two social media accounts are resting as well since many months.

    I thought it was a photo of him in his AJB007 profile?
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,138MI6 Agent
    edited February 2018
    Joshua

    I exceeded 950 days of active service by 2011.
    I got a nice ribbon for it for my uniform :)

    I became a full-time army officer a year ago, finally.

    As we have a Navy (11 army speed boats) we have worked with them too, but of course that's nothing compared to what you have done. Switzerland has big lakes, that's all.

    As para-scouts though we have to go through rivers with all our gear. Stripping down to our briefs and then everything on our shoulders or in front of us swimming, or walking if it is possible.

    I'm 43 now and very glad I don't have to do that anymore, I did it still last year. I'm very fit, naturally. Otherwise it wouldn't have been possible.

    I know you have much more experience than me. I please hope that you do not think I am boasting about anything or saying that I am perhaps more experienced. and I sincerely apologise if I sounded this way because this was not the intention to do. I only served for three years. I do know that you are a very experienced officer and I respect you for that. I think the only thing I have done which you might not have is swimming across the rivers and in the lakes with the crocodiles and hippos and tiger fish, because I think there are no crocodiles in Switzerland?! ;) You did what I would never have liked to do and gladly never done and that is parachuting! Let me swim in the river with crocodile any time than parachute! :o
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 SwitzerlandPosts: 870MI6 Agent
    Yes it's his photo, but I don't see the problem. Andi is not with Swiss Intelligence. Andi also has posted only a dozen photos of himself ever on the internet. Again, that's very conservative behaviour considering his generation is all over the internet.
    The AAD10's are an elite special forces commando.
    Dalton Rulez™
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 SwitzerlandPosts: 870MI6 Agent
    Joshua
    That's not what I intended to say. I'm just proud to have reached the 950 day landmark as it is unusual for a Swiss soldier.
    Your three years are awesome!
    I'm also sure you have been in way more real dangerous situations than me.
    Parachuting is in my DNA I have to say.

    It's also where Bond comes into the picture nicely because when I saw Dalton jump out of the plane in the PTS of The Living Daylights and saw him jump again in LTK I knew I will become a para-scout. Nothing stopped me, I was determined and reached my goal.
    Dalton Rulez™
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 SwitzerlandPosts: 870MI6 Agent
    I like to add that I have the upmost respect for all men on service.
    Joshua, you're my army bro from another mother (country :) )
    Dalton Rulez™
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,620MI6 Agent
    edited February 2018
    In Norway (and other countries, I think) members of special forces units tasked with contra-terror duties would never identity themselves as such and use a photo of themselves.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 SwitzerlandPosts: 870MI6 Agent
    Well, apparently you're right Number24. Just called Andi to ask about these things.
    Dalton Rulez™
  • Andi1996Andi1996 ZürichPosts: 50MI6 Agent
    Since I've only entered training in the said unit this week, I didn't have time to deactivate all my social media accounts.
    It's not a big issue really for the army actually. Of course we are anonymous, no name tags and we have camouflage insignia badges even.

    My avatar here is save though, tiny and not traceable so I'll leave it.
    It's no problem if Jase tells about me on AJB. I have told my friends on MI6 Community myself where I am now career wise, I did change my avatar on MI6 some time ago though, because it was traceable.

    I've always altered my real name enough so it couldn't be traced. Even long before I joined the army. The only place my full real name is visible is on the University social network, but that is a closed one only for students. The army has checked all those things of course.
    "It's always a pleasure to welcome someone with a mutual interest."
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,620MI6 Agent
    That makes sense :)

    Good luck with the training.
  • Andi1996Andi1996 ZürichPosts: 50MI6 Agent
    Thank you Number24 for pointing out these things.
    "It's always a pleasure to welcome someone with a mutual interest."
  • Andi1996Andi1996 ZürichPosts: 50MI6 Agent
    Hey Joshua. Reading your army history is highly interesting. You're quite the badass :D like I and Jase.

    As Jase said, you're an army-bro #unity #loyalty #armybrosforever #greatestrespect
    "It's always a pleasure to welcome someone with a mutual interest."
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,138MI6 Agent
    Thankyou Andi1996.

    As for your photograph, it is not a security risk as far as I am concerned personally because you white people look all the same to me! :007)
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,620MI6 Agent
    :D

    I have to ask, Joshua: when I see your profile photo I imagine you have James Earl Jones deep voice. I imagine his voice in my head when I read your post. :))
    Am I correct?
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    In Norway (and other countries, I think) members of special forces units tasked with contra-terror duties would never identity themselves as such and use a photo of themselves.
    Many things are down to personal discussion I guess, I've seem photos of sas men who undertook politically delicate ops published, and in the public domain, personally I had to sign a time limited osa, but once your out and your osa has expired it's down to personal choice. I'm still sensitive to certain things, only recently I was outside my old hq which is now boarded up, even though it has a coat of arms/ insignia on it, I thought about posting a picture on here but thought better of it, despite my picture being in here and my previous location. Best be safe.
    Such was the way, you couldn't be considered for my line of work in the past if you had tattoos! They can all be traced to source, which can be used against you and your country despite the Geneva convention.
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
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