In my opinion the system needs more than tweeking, it should change to a proportional system. There is no sense in a system were one party gets 4.7% of the votes and 56 seats while another party gets 3.8% of the votes and just one seat. Like you say, the problem is that the party(s) in power are in power because of this system and feel little need to change it. The Tories would not have majority under a proportional system. They would argue that the old system creates stabile majority governments, and that's often the case. However, a stabile country with a healthy democratic tradition will almost always create stable governments.
I don't like 'proportional representation' as a means to elect a government...for me it creates weak governments...too many 'smaller' parties get a say in what governments do and this leads to 'meandering' governments - too scared to actually 'do' anything...
My thoughts exactly. -{
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
In my opinion the system needs more than tweeking, it should change to a proportional system. There is no sense in a system were one party gets 4.7% of the votes and 56 seats while another party gets 3.8% of the votes and just one seat. Like you say, the problem is that the party(s) in power are in power because of this system and feel little need to change it. The Tories would not have majority under a proportional system. They would argue that the old system creates stabile majority governments, and that's often the case. However, a stabile country with a healthy democratic tradition will almost always create stable governments.
I don't like 'proportional representation' as a means to elect a government...for me it creates weak governments...too many 'smaller' parties get a say in what governments do and this leads to 'meandering' governments - too scared to actually 'do' anything...
My thoughts exactly. -{
While I see your points, I'm not sure you're right. In the Norwegian parliament there are usually 7-8 parties represented, with three parties with more than 20% of the vote. Not too different from the House of commons, I believe. I also have the feeling that governements with a proportional system (such as the Nordic countries, Germany and Australia) are just as capable of ruling and makeing decisions as the UK governments. I read that ironoocally, Cameron may find it harder to implement his politics now that he gets a Tory majority. In the coalition he could quiet the conservative wing of his own party by saying "I can't, the LibDem won't let us." Now he doesn't have that excuse.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,590Chief of Staff
Can someone explain to me who votes for a 20 yrs old student over a more mature, experienced politician ? How on earth was Douglas Alexander unseated by a 20 year old who tweets mainly about getting drunk ?? Where is the credibility when she's holding her surgery and her older constituents come to her with their problems ?? Sounds like she's more Students Union than Government.
I've only just read this story...it's totally bizarre....would love to see her debating in the House of Commons....
YNWA 97
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,590Chief of Staff
In the Norwegian parliament there are usually 7-8 parties represented, with three parties with more than 20% of the vote. Not too different from the House of commons, I believe. I also have the feeling that governements with a proportional system (such as the Nordic countries, Germany and Australia) are just as capable of ruling and makeing decisions as the UK governments. I read that ironoocally, Cameron may find it harder to implement his politics now that he gets a Tory majority. In the coalition he could quiet the conservative wing of his own party by saying "I can't, the LibDem won't let us." Now he doesn't have that excuse.
Cameron can push through almost any policy he wants...in-house politics will play a part, but he's plenty of leeway to push through his policies...so I don't agree with you on that score...
It's easy to govern when the economy is strong (or doing well) but much harder to turn around when hampered by 'smaller parties' when they want a say - as happens in countries where they have PR...
YNWA 97
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,693MI6 Agent
Can someone explain to me who votes for a 20 yrs old student over a more mature, experienced politician ? How on earth was Douglas Alexander unseated by a 20 year old who tweets mainly about getting drunk ?? Where is the credibility when she's holding her surgery and her older constituents come to her with their problems ?? Sounds like she's more Students Union than Government.
I've only just read this story...it's totally bizarre....would love to see her debating in the House of Commons....
The answer? - if they put a monkey up for the SNP people would vote for it over the traditional parties. She's studying politics - tells you all you need to know about her life experiences or the lack thereof really.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
In the Norwegian parliament there are usually 7-8 parties represented, with three parties with more than 20% of the vote. Not too different from the House of commons, I believe. I also have the feeling that governements with a proportional system (such as the Nordic countries, Germany and Australia) are just as capable of ruling and makeing decisions as the UK governments. I read that ironoocally, Cameron may find it harder to implement his politics now that he gets a Tory majority. In the coalition he could quiet the conservative wing of his own party by saying "I can't, the LibDem won't let us." Now he doesn't have that excuse.
Cameron can push through almost any policy he wants...in-house politics will play a part, but he's plenty of leeway to push through his policies...so I don't agree with you on that score...
It's easy to govern when the economy is strong (or doing well) but much harder to turn around when hampered by 'smaller parties' when they want a say - as happens in countries where they have PR...
There should be a limit to how small parties can get seats in parliament, in Norway it's 4%. That way you avoid dozens of small parties in parliament, like in Israel and some other countries. To be boringly serious: I know you CAN be right, but I also know you are often wrong in this. The US has a system not too far from the UK system (but with a stronger executive branch), but has problems getting desicions through their political system even with just two parties. Israel (as mentioned) has an abundance of political parties, making it fiendishly difficult to get things done. For better or for worse, they still manage to impliment very difficult political desicions. Having a one-party majority government is normally the easiest, but it's no guarantee for action. Again; has UK majority one-party governments really been more active an able to govern than governments in other Northern European countries?
What the US, Isreali and Norwegian examples tell me is that it's really about being sensible and have willingnes to put pragmatical solutions above ideology.
To be boringly serious: I know you CAN be right, but I also know you are often wrong in this.
Really...?...and your proof is..?..
That's just your opinion - which you are entitled too...but my opinion - and the one of most superpowers - is that PR isn't any better than the 'first past the post' system...
It is nice to debate this
But where are these weak governments you keep refering to? There are countries like Italy, Belgium and Greece, but I say their problems come from culture and history, not the election system. It's natural to compare with other Northern European countries with long histories of democracy. Do these countries really have weaker and less efficient governments than the UK?
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,590Chief of Staff
It is nice to debate this
But where are these weak governments you keep refering to? There are countries like Italy, Belgium and Greece, but I say their problems come from culture and history, not the election system. It's natural to compare with other Northern European countries with long histories of democracy. Do these countries really have weaker and less efficient governments than the UK?
Long answer short - yes they do. Practically every country that uses PR will have a weak government...it's the biggest drawback to using PR....
Find the old Northern European democracies with PR elections that are so much less efficient than the UK governments. Take Your time, because I'm going to sleep now.
I don't mean it as an insult to our younger members ( I have a lot of time for young opinions tbh as I fell young people see things more honestly) but I genuinely believe an MP does need to be slightly older because of the diverse group they are representing.
I wasn't sure whether to put this in the 'rant thread' or here but I can't believe I just watched a (IMHO) fabulous VE Day concert on BBC 1 to read that morons are defacing war memorials in Whitehall. Unbelievably sad considering they died to allow people to do this ....
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,590Chief of Staff
Examples please ....
You keep saying that, and I keep asking for examples. So far you have given none.
Is this the same as when I asked you for proof and you totally ignored my request ? :v
When did you keep asking for examples ?:)
And I did answer your request - unlike yourself who just ignored mine - "practically every government run by/on PR"....they just meander along - until they (usually) collapse...
YNWA 97
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,590Chief of Staff
Find the old Northern European democracies with PR elections that are so much less efficient than the UK governments. Take Your time, because I'm going to sleep now.
Pick one that proves your point....if you can...take your time...well, it does take an age when you use PR )
Sadly there seem to be a high percentage of morons today. it is sad.
I would love to see some ridiculously high fines handed out, even the odd
Prison sentence !
It's not just representing the world wars, it's also there for those who are
Protecting us today.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Examples please ....
You keep saying that, and I keep asking for examples. So far you have given none.
Is this the same as when I asked you for proof and you totally ignored my request ? :v
When did you keep asking for examples ?:)
And I did answer your request - unlike yourself who just ignored mine - "practically every government run by/on PR"....they just meander along - until they (usually) collapse...
I have asked for examples several times, yes. This is different from proof - proving political theories is very difficult.
Could you please give examples of these PR governments that just meaner along until they usually collapse? You haven't given a single example yet.
I don't mean it as an insult to our younger members ( I have a lot of time for young opinions tbh as I fell young people see things more honestly) but I genuinely believe an MP does need to be slightly older because of the diverse group they are representing.
No offense taken {[]
They do say that with Age, comes Wisdom (Well most of the Time anyway ) )
1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,590Chief of Staff
This is different from proof - proving political theories is very difficult.
Could you please give examples of these PR governments that just meaner along until they usually collapse? You haven't given a single example yet.
See my answer above....
If you can't prove your theory then my work here is done....PR governments - in the main - just don't work...which superpower government has PR ? Exactly :v
I'll leave this with you now....as you clearly have no respect for other people's opinions or that someone else may have a differing viewpoint to yours.... -{
Comments
My thoughts exactly.
Yes, if only one had 20-20 vision.
While I see your points, I'm not sure you're right. In the Norwegian parliament there are usually 7-8 parties represented, with three parties with more than 20% of the vote. Not too different from the House of commons, I believe. I also have the feeling that governements with a proportional system (such as the Nordic countries, Germany and Australia) are just as capable of ruling and makeing decisions as the UK governments. I read that ironoocally, Cameron may find it harder to implement his politics now that he gets a Tory majority. In the coalition he could quiet the conservative wing of his own party by saying "I can't, the LibDem won't let us." Now he doesn't have that excuse.
I've only just read this story...it's totally bizarre....would love to see her debating in the House of Commons....
Don't worry, I'm sure I'm right
Cameron can push through almost any policy he wants...in-house politics will play a part, but he's plenty of leeway to push through his policies...so I don't agree with you on that score...
It's easy to govern when the economy is strong (or doing well) but much harder to turn around when hampered by 'smaller parties' when they want a say - as happens in countries where they have PR...
The answer? - if they put a monkey up for the SNP people would vote for it over the traditional parties. She's studying politics - tells you all you need to know about her life experiences or the lack thereof really.
I should be a Politician then
Not until I convert you to conservatism.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
There should be a limit to how small parties can get seats in parliament, in Norway it's 4%. That way you avoid dozens of small parties in parliament, like in Israel and some other countries. To be boringly serious: I know you CAN be right, but I also know you are often wrong in this. The US has a system not too far from the UK system (but with a stronger executive branch), but has problems getting desicions through their political system even with just two parties. Israel (as mentioned) has an abundance of political parties, making it fiendishly difficult to get things done. For better or for worse, they still manage to impliment very difficult political desicions. Having a one-party majority government is normally the easiest, but it's no guarantee for action. Again; has UK majority one-party governments really been more active an able to govern than governments in other Northern European countries?
What the US, Isreali and Norwegian examples tell me is that it's really about being sensible and have willingnes to put pragmatical solutions above ideology.
Yea...would rather vote for the top one....more brains...
Really...?...and your proof is..?..
That's just your opinion - which you are entitled too...but my opinion - and the one of most superpowers - is that PR isn't any better than the 'first past the post' system...
Both systems have pros and cons...I just don't like the weak governments PR seem to deliver...but nice to debate these issues -{
But where are these weak governments you keep refering to? There are countries like Italy, Belgium and Greece, but I say their problems come from culture and history, not the election system. It's natural to compare with other Northern European countries with long histories of democracy. Do these countries really have weaker and less efficient governments than the UK?
Long answer short - yes they do. Practically every country that uses PR will have a weak government...it's the biggest drawback to using PR....
You keep saying that, and I keep asking for examples. So far you have given none.
I don't mean it as an insult to our younger members ( I have a lot of time for young opinions tbh as I fell young people see things more honestly) but I genuinely believe an MP does need to be slightly older because of the diverse group they are representing.
Is this the same as when I asked you for proof and you totally ignored my request ? :v
When did you keep asking for examples ?:)
And I did answer your request - unlike yourself who just ignored mine - "practically every government run by/on PR"....they just meander along - until they (usually) collapse...
Pick one that proves your point....if you can...take your time...well, it does take an age when you use PR
I would love to see some ridiculously high fines handed out, even the odd
Prison sentence !
It's not just representing the world wars, it's also there for those who are
Protecting us today.
I have asked for examples several times, yes. This is different from proof - proving political theories is very difficult.
Could you please give examples of these PR governments that just meaner along until they usually collapse? You haven't given a single example yet.
No offense taken {[]
They do say that with Age, comes Wisdom (Well most of the Time anyway
Only over the last couple of posts...and that was after I asked you...you can't be bothered too, so neither can I... 8-)
See my answer above....
If you can't prove your theory then my work here is done....PR governments - in the main - just don't work...which superpower government has PR ? Exactly :v
I'll leave this with you now....as you clearly have no respect for other people's opinions or that someone else may have a differing viewpoint to yours.... -{