To a certain point we must put our trust to the experts,,who are working 24/7 for years on those challenges and are elected and chosen by us.
Like the 'expert' bankers that caused a worldwide economic crash ? Like the 'experts' we didn't elect that run the EU ? Like the 'experts' that predicted terrible things for the UK if they voted Brexit - that have now changed their mind ? )
I'm afraid they are just like the rest of us - whistling in the dark
Like the 'expert' bankers that caused a worldwide economic crash ? Like the 'experts' we didn't elect that run the EU ? Like the 'experts' that predicted terrible thing for the UK if they voted Brexit - that have now changed their mind ? )
I'm afraid they are just like the rest of us - whistling in the dark
I don't think that I've elected any banker
The EU execs are elected by the EU parliament, which was elected by us
I don't see people changing their predictions and it's too early to see how this turns out
And your pic of the EU is too onesided. There are still many people that are good for us - that demonisation is a cheap populist thing and I'd rather see experts running the Union instead yourself or BoJo :v
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,690MI6 Agent
The European Parliament is the only part of the EU that is elected by a democratic vote and it is also, incidentally, the part of the EU with the least power despite the reforms of the Single European Act. Says it all really.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Well a wave of anti democratic feeling doesn't alter the path of democracy after that same democracy has spoken. I find it more than a little disturbing when people begin to say that referendums shouldn't be held. That path leads to a very dark place. The EU supposedly champions democracy but apparently only under it's own terms? As I said earlier "You are free to vote just so long as you vote for me!"
Amid all the speculation posted here I still have to see one post which explains why the electorate voted as they did. I can only conclude that it is because no one actually got out there & asked. Until you understand that you will not understand anything else. The EU needs to learn some very serious lessons from what the British people have told them if they want their union to survive - I guess they won't though because they are both unable & unwilling to listen. Sticking fingers in their ears, closing their eyes & singing LA LA LA at the top of their voices may work for them but it does nothing to halt the rise of some very unsavory attitudes which are riding on the backs of peoples discontent with this EU project continent wide.
That the British have placed a limpet mine below the waterline on SS Europa is no accident, it is not because people misunderstood how the EU (& British politicians - because it was also a vote against the British elitists as much as those who stalk the corridors of Brussels) works because they do. In the simple terms of those same people the message was clear, it was concise & above all it was truthful in the terms of how the EU was impacting upon their lives. We all know the politicians & faux intellectuals look down upon the people, metaphorically patting them on the head while - in a most condescending of tones telling them that 'we know best'. You can only do that for so long - Thursday proved that & the greatest lesson here is that you ignore your electorate at your peril....................
It is only my opinion Stag and my own experiences during this referendum campaign, but to my eyes the vote was always going to be to leave, for years discontent has been growing with the EU, a lot of people voted the current government on the strength of an EU referendum, it was the job of the remain campaign to offer valied reasons to stay. This was not done with any level of success, the remain was run on a we have to stay because otherwise we are all doomed for eternity, the leave campaign offered a positive version of what if? And there is a better way.
The referendum offered the people of this country a very rare opportunity to change the UKs future course and for the majority a brighter future, even at the cost of some economic uncertainty. That opportunity was taken as opposed to more of the same and a perceived decline of living standards in our country.
I also experienced a confusion over what the EU represents. Why does a socialist Labour party want us to remain in a capitalist EU? Because surely the EU is a capitalist project is it not? These views made obvious the huge disconnect with not only Westminster and the people but also the city of London and the rest of the country.
The result was inevitable. A vote to leave was a vote used against the EU, politicians and the perceived ruling elite along with a sense of drowning in an unwanted European superstate.
These are the same issues becoming apparent in other EU member states.
In my opinion, if the EU is a truly democratic institution secure in its popularity why not hold a Europe wide referendum? Ask the people? Put this to bed once and for all.
On a seperate note, I'm really pleased we've been able to discuss these issues in an amicable manner, healthy debate and argument is good for the heart and sole, thank you Higgins for offering up a pro EU stance and arguing your points. I was also hoping Number24 might chime in but he's disappeared?? Long may healthy debate continue -{
The European Parliament is the only part of the EU that is elected by a democratic vote and it is also, incidentally, the part of the EU with the least power despite the reforms of the Single European Act. Says it all really.
Not correct.
All EU institutions are either installed by the EU parliament or the national governments which are also elected by the people.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
notice that I'm not saying which way or even if I voted.
I'm seeing way too many good friends falling out over something beyond either's control.
what'll be will be, uncertain times for sure but there's little any of us can do. ride the storm out i guess, s'all ya can do.
No one has any need to know which way you voted. It was your absolute right to vote for whomever you chose.
What we need as a nation right now is to set aside all the crap (most of it being drummed into us by 'rolling' news who are always short of something to fill airtime) & work together to make this work.
Here here -{ (though I'm quite unhappy with you for Number24! You do realise with the tides over there he may end up in the Morecambe cockle beds!)
Though I wanted to avoid discussions with you, let me elaborate a bit more why I am against Referendums.
Populists: you can see a modus operandi all over Europe how Populists work.
In Europe, we all are doing relatively well - if you disagree - ask someone in Thailand or Africa.
The world became very complicated in the last 3 decades and many people's worlds and values have gotten shattered. Many people lost a lot during the 2008 crisis which was not the EU's fault.
many People are unhappy and bitter and many politicians have become greedy, corrupt and lifted from the Average Joe.
Now enter the populists:
They spread hate against the existing systems, against the mainstream and public media, against foreigners, against experts of all kind, demonise the EU, you pick your enemy.
The society becomes polarized, angry hateful and insecure and they need someone to lead them out of he dark - and voila pick the populists because the establishment has failed.
It's always the same story - the same strategy, the same hate. I lived in Austria 25 years ago, where Haider was the first one to operate like that.
In a climate of fear, hate and demonisation, the best argument does not win! The one who screams loudest, wins!
Look how people regret how they voted some days ago , they feel to be misinformed ( from both sides btw) and how long this election period divided and slowed down the country.
And in a couple of months, the UK may elect another government. That means more months of silly campainging, more lies, more hate, more fear and more populism.
In my opinion this kind of theater every 4 or 5 years is enough, we don't need more of that in the middle of the election period. And the amount of misleading campaining and the number of people falling for those lies makes me convinced that additional Referendums and not doing anything better or democracy.
Of course imo.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
... the leave campaign offered a positive version of what if? ... A vote to leave was a vote used against the EU, politicians and the perceived ruling elite along with a sense of drowning in an unwanted European superstate.
I'd love to think that was true, and that the general population's motives were as considered as yours Chriscoop -{ , but sadly I think a part of the Leave vote was driven by immigration fears. The last thing we need is a move to the far right here or across Europe.
No, what we need is another England goal or two to redress the balance against Iceland in the final minutes...
On a seperate note, I'm really pleased we've been able to discuss these issues in an amicable manner, healthy debate and argument is good for the heart and sole, thank you Higgins for offering up a pro EU stance and arguing your points. I was also hoping Number24 might chime in but he's disappeared?? Long may healthy debate continue -{
... the leave campaign offered a positive version of what if? ... A vote to leave was a vote used against the EU, politicians and the perceived ruling elite along with a sense of drowning in an unwanted European superstate.
I'd love to think that was true, and that the general population's motives were as considered as yours Chriscoop -{ , but sadly I think a part of the Leave vote was driven by immigration fears. The last thing we need is a move to the far right here or across Europe.
No, what we need is another England goal or two to redress the balance against Iceland in the final minutes...
Immigration has played a big part it's true, but I'm my conversations more as a we don't have enough space, housing, jobs, school places, hospital beds way than a we hate immigrants coming here way. Obviously there is an element of that vile thought process but thankfully a small element.
I would like to think the majority of brits are too moderate to allow extreme right politics to rise up, certainly less chance of it after brexit. And IMHO anyone displaying any form of racism or should be severely dealt with.
Comments
Like the 'expert' bankers that caused a worldwide economic crash ? Like the 'experts' we didn't elect that run the EU ? Like the 'experts' that predicted terrible things for the UK if they voted Brexit - that have now changed their mind ?
I'm afraid they are just like the rest of us - whistling in the dark
I'm seeing way too many good friends falling out over something beyond either's control.
what'll be will be, uncertain times for sure but there's little any of us can do. ride the storm out i guess, s'all ya can do.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
It is all very silly...I've no idea why people would fall out over something beyond their control...
{[] Buy you a drink, mg?
I don't think that I've elected any banker
The EU execs are elected by the EU parliament, which was elected by us
I don't see people changing their predictions and it's too early to see how this turns out
And your pic of the EU is too onesided. There are still many people that are good for us - that demonisation is a cheap populist thing and I'd rather see experts running the Union instead yourself or BoJo :v
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The referendum offered the people of this country a very rare opportunity to change the UKs future course and for the majority a brighter future, even at the cost of some economic uncertainty. That opportunity was taken as opposed to more of the same and a perceived decline of living standards in our country.
I also experienced a confusion over what the EU represents. Why does a socialist Labour party want us to remain in a capitalist EU? Because surely the EU is a capitalist project is it not? These views made obvious the huge disconnect with not only Westminster and the people but also the city of London and the rest of the country.
The result was inevitable. A vote to leave was a vote used against the EU, politicians and the perceived ruling elite along with a sense of drowning in an unwanted European superstate.
These are the same issues becoming apparent in other EU member states.
In my opinion, if the EU is a truly democratic institution secure in its popularity why not hold a Europe wide referendum? Ask the people? Put this to bed once and for all.
Not correct.
All EU institutions are either installed by the EU parliament or the national governments which are also elected by the people.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
shmooove talkin barsted, ill have a baby-sham and lambrini cheers
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Though I wanted to avoid discussions with you, let me elaborate a bit more why I am against Referendums.
Populists: you can see a modus operandi all over Europe how Populists work.
In Europe, we all are doing relatively well - if you disagree - ask someone in Thailand or Africa.
The world became very complicated in the last 3 decades and many people's worlds and values have gotten shattered. Many people lost a lot during the 2008 crisis which was not the EU's fault.
many People are unhappy and bitter and many politicians have become greedy, corrupt and lifted from the Average Joe.
Now enter the populists:
They spread hate against the existing systems, against the mainstream and public media, against foreigners, against experts of all kind, demonise the EU, you pick your enemy.
The society becomes polarized, angry hateful and insecure and they need someone to lead them out of he dark - and voila pick the populists because the establishment has failed.
It's always the same story - the same strategy, the same hate. I lived in Austria 25 years ago, where Haider was the first one to operate like that.
In a climate of fear, hate and demonisation, the best argument does not win! The one who screams loudest, wins!
Look how people regret how they voted some days ago , they feel to be misinformed ( from both sides btw) and how long this election period divided and slowed down the country.
And in a couple of months, the UK may elect another government. That means more months of silly campainging, more lies, more hate, more fear and more populism.
In my opinion this kind of theater every 4 or 5 years is enough, we don't need more of that in the middle of the election period. And the amount of misleading campaining and the number of people falling for those lies makes me convinced that additional Referendums and not doing anything better or democracy.
Of course imo.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'd love to think that was true, and that the general population's motives were as considered as yours Chriscoop -{ , but sadly I think a part of the Leave vote was driven by immigration fears. The last thing we need is a move to the far right here or across Europe.
No, what we need is another England goal or two to redress the balance against Iceland in the final minutes...
Also seconded (or is that thirded?)
I would like to think the majority of brits are too moderate to allow extreme right politics to rise up, certainly less chance of it after brexit. And IMHO anyone displaying any form of racism or should be severely dealt with.
I do have that effect.
Predictable that it would happen. more to come.
The more I think of it, the more I am convinced that noone will pull article 50 and the UK stay with far less privileges.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Yeah...means bugger all though...
Many countries have a far worse rating...
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
And we still have their marbles
Lucky you - lost mine years ago
Give the Marbles back. I'm sick of their whining about them. As my Law lecturer said we have enough marble in the UK already.
Their debt.